Fulmer debate extravaganza (merged)

[Gramps]

1997: beat Nebraska, and someone loses (can't remember who, maybe Kansas State?), the Vols win the National Championship.

1995: don't choke against Florida, they go undefeated and probably win the whole thing.

There are the 4 times for ya. And if you want another, 1999 should've been back to back, but a lost opportunity against Florida end a choke against Arkansas killed those
chances.

I was at the Orange Bowl when the 1997 team played NE.
That was the worse beating I have ever saw TN take. It was pathetic NE completely wore TN out.

 

[whobethis16]

I was at the Orange Bowl when the 1997 team played NE.
That was the worse beating I have ever saw TN take. It was pathetic NE completely wore TN out.

True. Not arguing that Tennessee should've won that one, but rather arguing they were in the hunt. That game was awful, much like the next time they played.

 

[Big Orange 1]

1997: beat Nebraska, and someone loses (can't remember who, maybe Kansas State?), the Vols win the National Championship.

1995: don't choke against Florida, they go undefeated and probably win the whole thing.

There are the 4 times for ya. And if you want another, 1999 should've been back to back, but a lost opportunity against Florida end a choke against Arkansas killed those chances.

2011 : Beat KY, win a bowl game, the staff don't quit, another month of practice, and we dont finish last in the SEC East. 1999 should have been back to back? When was the last time NC's were won back to back? Seriously, It still wouldnt have been good enough. The fact remains that UT ran off a proven winner, for Lane Kiffin. My whole argument all along. If you have a Saban or Meyer available and can get them, go for it. The Fulmer firing was kneejerk reaction. Absolutely classless to fire him in mid season, your damn right I think he deserved better than that.

 

[Gramps]

2011 : Beat KY, win a bowl game, the staff don't quit, another month of practice, and we dont finish last in the SEC East. 1999 should have been back to back? When was the last time NC's were won back to back? Seriously, It still wouldnt have been good enough. The fact remains that UT ran off a proven winner, for Lane Kiffin. My whole argument all along. If you have a Saban or Meyer available and can get them, go for it. The Fulmer firing was kneejerk reaction. Absolutely classless to fire him in mid
season, your damn right I think he deserved better than that.

I would not call firing a coach that was 29-22 the last four years a kneejerk reaction.
The program was going downhill. Tgetjar talent level had fallen off due to lack of recruiting. TN was getting blown out by the better teams in the SEC.
It was a few years too late for Fulmer to go. He has brought some great seasons but he had last his drive. That was obvious.
IIRC, in an interview CPF stated he started to step down sometime between 2000-2002.
He is a HOF coach and deserves being one.
If he had resigned in the early 2000's he would be a living legend and would be considered as one of the very few elite coaches. Him staying and not putting 100% into the job has put a ? on his legacy .

i am not bashing CPF, imo, like several great athletes that hang around a few years too long when its obvious they are no longer on top of their game, Fulmer hung around as a coach too long.

 

[GreveHaller]

I would not call firing a coach that was 29-22 the last four years a kneejerk reaction.
The program was going downhill. Tgetjar talent level had fallen off due to lack of recruiting. TN was getting blown out by the better teams in the SEC.
It was a few years too late for Fulmer to go. He has brought some great seasons but he had last his drive. That was obvious.
IIRC, in an interview CPF stated he started to step down sometime between 2000-2002.
He is a HOF coach and deserves being one.
If he had resigned in the early 2000's he would be a living legend and would be considered as one of the very few elite coaches. Him staying and not putting 100% into the job has put a ? on his legacy .

i am not bashing CPF, imo, like several great athletes that hang around a few years too long when its obvious they are no longer on top of their game, Fulmer hung around as a coach too long.

29-22 isnt a knee jerk reaction. Firing him mid season is. Add to it just coming off a trip to the SECCG and MH could have torn an ACL he jerked it so fast.

MH should have given PF the infamous "vote of confidence" and all the season to run out before pulling the plug.

 

[GmanTN]

We backed into the 07 SECCG after getting curb stomped by Florida and Bama, and as far as a vote of confidence goes...MH did Phil a great honor by announcing this firing before the season end so fans of Phil could come out in support to attend games.

 

[Gramps]

29-22 isnt a knee jerk reaction. Firing him mid season is. Add to it just coming off a trip to the SECCG and MH could have torn an ACL he jerked it so fast.

MH should have given PF the infamous "vote of confidence" and all the season to run out before pulling the plug.

I agree he could have waited until the end of season to fire him, on the other hand firing him with a few games remaining gave CPF a chance to do a farewell tour and beat Vandy and KY one last time a say goodbye to his fans. That last game was very special and Phil was showed a tremendous amount of love from the fans and media.

 

[GmanTN]

I remember when Cut returned for the 06-07 seasons and how he had to work with Ainge to get rid of the ball quick because the OL could not block. Remember how Ainge was instructed if the receivers are covered to just throw the ball out of bounds because the linemen could not hold their blocks. A true indication as to how far the talent on the OL had fallen.

 

[GreveHaller]

I agree he could have waited until the end of season to fire him, on the other hand firing him with a few games remaining gave CPF a chance to do a farewell tour and beat Vandy and KY one last time a say goodbye to his fans. That last game was very special and Phil was showed a tremendous amount of love from the fans and media.

there's no doubt about it regarding the 'tour of Phil'. I'll also contend that if he'd been fired at the end of the season instead of mid season we'd lost to Ky that year. We werent good and they werent that bad. The team played that game for coach.

Firing him mid season gave ammo to other schools when talking to recruits. "Why go to Tennessee? You dont even know who the coach will be and it'll be rebuilding. Come to school at X where at least you know what you get going in". By the time we hired LK, he was behind the curve before he started. I still think MH knee jerked hiring LK too before fb season was over. There might have been another coach out there that was bigger and more proven that would have liked to coach here but considering cfb post season wasnt over, no coach could seriously talk to us. Again, "might". LK could have been the best choice but I would have like to see MH weigh him against all others instead of the only dog in the race.

 

[BigSteve09]

I remember when Cut returned for the 06-07 seasons and how he had to work with Ainge to get rid of the ball quick because the OL could not block. Remember how Ainge was instructed if the receivers are covered to just throw the ball out of bounds because the linemen could not hold their blocks. A true indication as to how far the talent on the OL had fallen.

Yeah, I remember those teams because they created this crazy misconception that our line could actually block. Announcers would say stuff like "They haven't surrendered a sack in 1582758 downs." Check for the slant, check for the hook, check for the down man, throw it out of bounds. It was quite simple.

I don't think any of the teams or coaches that we played those seasons were fooled though. The announcers who would just check their cheat sheets the night before/day of the game would buy into it, and the uninformed fans, but most of us were like "this sucks."

FOSTER not being able to break the rushing record is proof IMO. He was what, 700 yards short before his senior year? He definitely could have stomped that record if we had a decent line. I don't know if Foster was better than our elite backs, but I would've liked to see what he could have done with the 90s-early 00s OL.

 

[GmanTN]

Yeah, I remember those teams because they created this crazy misconception that our line could actually block. Announcers would say stuff like "They haven't surrendered a sack in 1582758 downs." Check for the slant, check for the hook, check for the down man, throw it out of bounds. It was quite simple.

I don't think any of the teams or coaches that we played those seasons were fooled though. The announcers who would just check their cheat sheets the night before/day of the game would buy into it, and the uninformed fans, but most of us were like "this sucks."

FOSTER not being able to break the rushing record is proof IMO. He was what, 700 yards short before his senior year? He definitely could have stomped that record if we had a decent line. I don't know if Foster was better than our elite backs, but I would've liked to see what he could have done with the 90s-early 00s OL.

It was probably the best job of coaching that Cut ever did at UT to boost his resume to get hired as a HC again. To the fans who bought into that Phil was back had to be heartbreaking when 2008 rolled around and those weaknesses were exposed in the OL that Cut was able to work around.

 

[Big Orange 1]

We backed into the 07 SECCG after getting curb stomped by Florida and Bama, and as far as a vote of confidence goes...MH did Phil a great honor by announcing this firing before the season end so fans of Phil could come out in support to attend games.

Backed into? Alabama backed into a NC game this year. Ask their fans if they care.

 

[Ned Ray McWorkher]

Ran a program into the ditch a fact? No thats your opinion.

Exactly. He can't seem to grasp that concept, for whatever reason.

 

[Gramps]

Backed into? Alabama backed into a NC game this year. Ask their fans if they care.

Good point.

There is no such thing as backing into a championship game.

If team A wins out, they are champions.
If team A does not win out then team B is the champions.
That is not backing into anything.

 

[Ned Ray McWorkher]

1997: beat Nebraska, and someone loses (can't remember who, maybe Kansas State?), the Vols win the National Championship.

1995: don't choke against Florida, they go undefeated and probably win the whole thing.

There are the 4 times for ya. And if you want another, 1999 should've been back to back, but a lost opportunity against Florida end a choke against Arkansas killed those chances.

At least four, just like I said. These Fulmer haters are funny. Really.

 

[Ned Ray McWorkher]

Majors win total for his last 3 full seasons as coach, 89-91 (29-6)

Phil Fulmers first 3 years as HC 1993-1995 (29-7)

Phil Fulmers last 3 years as HC 2006-2008 (24-15)

You need a history lesson and whether you or anyone else who doesn't think there was a tremendous drop in talent in the second half of Phil's time here is either in denial or don't grasp the game well.

Yep, Majors did look a little better with Fulmer as OC. You are right about that. Fulmer was easily better as a coach here than Majors. Majors was not dominating anyone in his career here. Certainly you remember that, right? Fulmer did have a drop in talent in his last few years. But my point is what does that mean? The HoF foundation was already layed. You have no real argument. The fact you keep trying is comical.

 

[Ned Ray McWorkher]

I was at the Orange Bowl when the 1997 team played NE.
That was the worse beating I have ever saw TN take. It was pathetic NE completely wore TN out.

Did you see that 180 pound corner hit Jamal and nearly break his hip on a toss left? One word. Roids. Nebraska hammered everyone for a few years there, Florida included, and much worse than they beat us too. Wonder how...........

 

[volfanecs]

Backed into? Alabama backed into a NC game this year. Ask their fans if they care.

Backed into is another way of watering down any CPF accomplishments.

 

[Gramps]

Did you see that 180 pound corner hit Jamal and nearly break his hip on a toss left? One word. Roids. Nebraska hammered everyone for a few years there, Florida included, and much worse than they beat us too. Wonder how...........

I do not remember that hit.

The thing that stands out to me is the amount of substitutions NE was doing. They were making wholsale substitutions every 2 or 3 plays.

 

[Ned Ray McWorkher]

I do not remember that hit.

The thing that stands out to me is the amount of substitutions NE was doing. They were making wholsale substitutions every 2 or 3 plays.

They had 150 players! 100 were walk-ons. Great program though, legendary coach too. But during that 4 year stretch..............

 

[GmanTN]

Yep, Majors did look a little better with Fulmer as OC. You are right about that. Fulmer was easily better as a coach here than Majors. Majors was not dominating anyone in his career here. Certainly you remember that, right? Fulmer did have a drop in talent in his last few years. But my point is what does that mean? The HoF foundation was already layed. You have no real argument. The fact you keep trying is comical.

Surely your memory is not that bad? You have debated with me in the past that Fulmer did not have a drop in talent. The reason this dumpster fire is taking this long to start digging out of is HOFPF had backed off recruiting and spent too much time trying to mettle with the offense. Phil is the reason we are where we are currently, rebuilding a roster due to lack of talent left by Phil.

If you cannot see that and realize yes Phil had a great run his first 8 years as HC, his recruiting efforts the second half not so much and seemed to go downward each year. Perhaps to you Phil could do no wrong, your stance on him appears to be that way.

Also you said Majors was better his last 3 seasons because of Phil as OC, the same can be said for Phil when Cut was here as well.

 

[82_VOL_83]

I want what you are smoking

I want your AVI!!! ROFL. Hey San Diego, up the street from you in Malibu right now!

 

[82_VOL_83]

Dooley puts his foot in his mouth as much as Kiffin , whether it's talking about Nazis or telling kids how to shower or the Arnett situation...

Don't recall the Nazi issue, however, even at the HS level for CLUB teams, we were being instructed on telling the kids how to shower, how to wash their gear, etc. etc. because of CA-MRSA. If you don't know, it is a vicious form of staph that kills kids. And here we go with the Arnett situation. Can't beat the guy up for holding the company line until he talked to the kid face to face. Go to the Arnett thread if you want to re-hash this please.

 

[82_VOL_83]

The only difference between 2005 5-7, 2006 9-4, 2007 10-4 and 2008 5-7 was David Cutcliffe. So many Fulmerites fail to accept the fact that if Cut had not come back for the 06-07 seasons Phil could have had losing seasons his last 4 years.

The first thing Cut noticed upon his return was lack of talent and depth on the OL, the lack of talent was a direct result of Phil concentrating more as an OC because he never trusted Sanders and less time at recruiting linemen which was his strong suit.

Remember the 2009 season? we started walk-ons and Freshmen OL, because we had no one else!

This is a pretty good post and pretty much sums up CPF Part Du.

 

[TNGrad2012]

Folks, I'll make it very simple for you. Johnny Majors was the head coach from 1977-1992. In that time, he won three SEC Championships. From 1980 through 1992, Fulmer was on his coaching staff, coaching either the offensive line or serving as offensive coordinator. All of Majors' great teams came during the period of time Fulmer was an assistant coach. Those teams that I considered to be top notch came in 1985, 1987, 1989, 1990, 1991, and 1992. What happened in 1992 when Majors took the team back over after Fulmer coached them to three wins, one of which was a victory over Florida? THEY LOST THREE GAMES IN A ROW TO ARKANSAS, ALABAMA, AND SOUTH CAROLINA. That, more than anything else, led to his dismissal from the school, as well it should have, because Fulmer got the most out of his player while Majors was too busy drilling his players to be like U.S. Marines. Fulmer was cutting edge back then, while Majors was yesterday's news.

I'm not saying that Fulmer was outmoded as a coach or that he was the victim of bad luck. It could have been a case of one or the other or both. But the fact is that he took us to a level that hadn't been seen since the Neyland years, or certainly the string of years ranging from 1965-1972, when I think we finished in the Top 10 every year. Fulmer was a great recruiter, but not a great game day coach; every agrees here. But he was good enough to take us to that next level, and I'll be honest: I'm not so sure that he couldn't still have success now if he were rehired by Dave Hart to replace Dooley should Dooley be fired. After all, in both years that Fulmer finished with losing records, there were issues at quarterback; in '05, Ainge played awful and Rick Clauson wasn't good enough to get the job done despite the wealth of talent at running back and at wide receiver, and in '08, we had Crompton as our QB - 'nuff said. Those two reasons are why Fulmer was retired, where only one situation was his fault in misjudging talent at the quarterback position.