Fulmer debate extravaganza (merged)

[GmanTN]

Folks, I'll make it very simple for you. Johnny Majors was the head coach from 1977-1992. In that time, he won three SEC Championships. From 1980 through 1992, Fulmer was on his coaching staff, coaching either the offensive line or serving as offensive coordinator. All of Majors' great teams came during the period of time Fulmer was an assistant coach. Those teams that I considered to be top notch came in 1985, 1987, 1989, 1990, 1991, and 1992. What happened in 1992 when Majors took the team back over after Fulmer coached them to three wins, one of which was a victory over Florida? THEY LOST THREE GAMES IN A ROW TO ARKANSAS, ALABAMA, AND SOUTH CAROLINA. That, more than anything else, led to his dismissal from the school, as well it should have, because Fulmer got the most out of his player while Majors was too busy drilling his players to be like U.S. Marines. Fulmer was cutting edge back then, while Majors was yesterday's news.

I'm not saying that Fulmer was outmoded as a coach or that he was the victim of bad luck. It could have been a case of one or the other or both. But the fact is that he took us to a level that hadn't been seen since the Neyland years, or certainly the string of years ranging from 1965-1972, when I think we finished in the Top 10 every year. Fulmer was a great recruiter, but not a great game day coach; every agrees here. But he was good enough to take us to that next level, and I'll be honest: I'm not so sure that he couldn't still have success now if he were rehired by Dave Hart to replace Dooley should Dooley be fired. After all, in both years that Fulmer finished with losing records, there were issues at quarterback; in '05, Ainge played awful and Rick Clauson wasn't good enough to get the job done despite the wealth of talent at running back and at wide receiver, and in '08, we had Crompton as our QB - 'nuff said. Those two reasons are why Fulmer was retired, where only one situation was his fault in misjudging talent at the quarterback position.

If any school thought Phil still had what it took to coach he would have been hired by now. Your reasons for 2005 and 2008 seasons is totally wrong and the only reason Phil did not end his career with 4 losing seasons is because of the return of Cutcliffe for the 06-07 seasons.

Bottomline if Phil had stay focused on recruiting more and less focus on what Sanders was doing, the drop in talent would not have happened. The drop in talent was the reason Phil was FIRED not retired and that is also been why it is taking us so long to dig out of this mess, and why no school has expressed an interest in hiring him.

 

[GreveHaller]

If any school thought Phil still had what it took to coach he would have been hired by now. Your reasons for 2005 and 2008 seasons is totally wrong and the only reason Phil did not end his career with 4 losing seasons is because of the return of Cutcliffe for the 06-07 seasons.

Bottomline if Phil had stay focused on recruiting more and less focus on what Sanders was doing, the drop in talent would not have happened. The drop in talent was the reason Phil was FIRED not retired and that is also been why it is taking us so long to dig out of this mess, and why no school has expressed an interest in hiring him.

:horse: uggh. Come on, G. Its the same thing over and over. That's ONE possibility but that's not the only reason he doesnt have a coaching job. He has a company here in Tn as well as grandchildren he enjoys being around.

If that's the only reason he doesnt have a job then Jimmy Johnson, Gruden, Cowher, and Switzer also suck as coaches since no one has hired them either.

Let it go

 

[Gramps]

:horse: uggh. Come on, G. Its the same thing over and over. That's ONE possibility but that's not the only reason he doesnt have a coaching job. He has a company here in Tn as well as grandchildren he enjoys being around.

If that's the only reason he doesnt have a job then Jimmy Johnson, Gruden, Cowher, and Switzer also suck as coaches since no one has hired them either.

Let it go

That's a funny post, right there.

 

[vol_in_ar]

this thread is full of humor

 

[GreveHaller]

this thread is full of humor

it has more conspiracy theories than the Kennedy assassination

 

[GmanTN]

:horse: uggh. Come on, G. Its the same thing over and over. That's ONE possibility but that's not the only reason he doesnt have a coaching job. He has a company here in Tn as well as grandchildren he enjoys being around.

If that's the only reason he doesnt have a job then Jimmy Johnson, Gruden, Cowher, and Switzer also suck as coaches since no one has hired them either.

Let it go

I have no problem with letting things go but the fact of the matter is it goes both ways!

Unlike Johnson, Gruden and Cowher, Phil has thrown his name in the hat for head coaching jobs only to be denied. I seriously doubt that the 3 mentioned would be denied if they were to throw their names in the hat.

That is what gets me, yeah Phil had a good run, his first half was much better than the second half of his career and for some on here to say Phil could still get it done makes no sense. The other schools in the country also seem to share my same thoughts so it is not like it is all hyperbole.

In 2005 we went 5-7
Cut returns in 2006
2006 we go 9-4
2007 we go 10-4
Cut leaves at the end of the 07 season for Duke
2008 without Cut we go 5-7

All of the above can be attributed to the fact after Cut left for Ole Miss in 1998. Phil never trusted Sanders and he kept dictating how the offense should be run and less time on recruiting, especially linemen!

That was why when Cut returned in 06 he had to work with what we had and that was an OL that was horrible so he had Ainge throwing the ball out of bounds if the first couple of reads were covered because the OL could not block. In 2008 that weakness was exposed under the Clawfense and we have building an offensive line ever since.

 

[volfanecs]

.

 

[namasteVOLfans]

Will this thread ever end?

 

[volfanecs]

it has more conspiracy theories than the Kennedy assassination

When Majors was fired, CPF was spotted in the grassy knoll.

 

[GreveHaller]

I have no problem with letting things go but the fact of the matter is it goes both ways!

Unlike Johnson, Gruden and Cowher, Phil has thrown his name in the hat for head coaching jobs only to be denied. I seriously doubt that the 3 mentioned would be denied if they were to throw their names in the hat.

That is what gets me, yeah Phil had a good run, his first half was much better than the second half of his career and for some on here to say Phil could still get it done makes no sense. The other schools in the country also seem to share my same thoughts so it is not like it is all hyperbole.

In 2005 we went 5-7
Cut returns in 2006
2006 we go 9-4
2007 we go 10-4
Cut leaves at the end of the 07 season for Duke
2008 without Cut we go 5-7

All of the above can be attributed to the fact after Cut left for Ole Miss in 1998. Phil never trusted Sanders and he kept dictating how the offense should be run and less time on recruiting, especially linemen!

That was why when Cut returned in 06 he had to work with what we had and that was an OL that was horrible so he had Ainge throwing the ball out of bounds if the first couple of reads were covered because the OL could not block. In 2008 that weakness was exposed under the Clawfense and we have building an offensive line ever since.

Denied. But who denied? was it the school or was it Phil? You nor I nor anyone know. He's also said he's comfortable where he is and what he's doing. That's denying them. Its a 50-50 shot of who shot the other one down.

Here's a non sports example: my wife worked in the hotel business as a sales rep. Did well, got raises, hit quotas, etc.... Then business began to slow due to a few factors - markets, economy, etc... so the hotel began to create a "file" on her writing her up for trivial stuff, micromanging, etc... until one day when she returned from her hysterectomy (one month out) they let her go. At the time she was the highest paid rep in the office and the hotel was hurting.

So she starts looking for a new job. Contacted a few hotels, had other hotels contact her. Some were far away, some didnt offer enough money, a variety of factors but they were an option. Then a job opened not in the hotel business but as a supplier to hotels. She weighed the pros and cons and went took the job. Now, she loves it. Sets her own hours, home with the kids more, makes as much most of the time more money than as a hotel sales rep. Its commission based so there's the ebbs and flows unlike a consistant paycheck from the hotel but she enjoys the other benefits more. Its a completely different business than she was used to but its a good fit.

So does she suck as a hotel sales rep because no one hired her as a sales rep? Well, no. Just because she got out of the business doesnt mean she sucks. She chose a different path and she enjoys it as much if not more. The option is there but the conditions have to right or better for her to jump back into the hotel rep world. She'll listen to anyone that wants to talk but it doesnt mean that they'll offer her a job nor will she take it. She's happy where she's at and wont rule anything out. Just like CPF.

There's more to one side of the Phil story and its the portion we dont know. You're assuming its just schools that dont want Phil and you know what happens when you assume.

 

[whobethis16]

Denied. But who denied? was it the school or was it Phil? You nor I nor anyone know. He's also said he's comfortable where he is and what he's doing. That's denying them. Its a 50-50 shot of who shot the other one down.

Here's a non sports example: my wife worked in the hotel business as a sales rep. Did well, got raises, hit quotas, etc.... Then business began to slow due to a few factors - markets, economy, etc... so the hotel began to create a "file" on her writing her up for trivial stuff, micromanging, etc... until one day when she returned from her hysterectomy (one month out) they let her go. At the time she was the highest paid rep in the office and the hotel was hurting.

So she starts looking for a new job. Contacted a few hotels, had other hotels contact her. Some were far away, some didnt offer enough money, a variety of factors but they were an option. Then a job opened not in the hotel business but as a supplier to hotels. She weighed the pros and cons and went took the job. Now, she loves it. Sets her own hours, home with the kids more, makes as much most of the time more money than as a hotel sales rep. Its commission based so there's the ebbs and flows unlike a consistant paycheck from the hotel but she enjoys the other benefits more. Its a completely different business than she was used to but its a good fit.

So does she suck as a hotel sales rep because no one hired her as a sales rep? Well, no. Just because she got out of the business doesnt mean she sucks. She chose a different path and she enjoys it as much if not more. The option is there but the conditions have to right or better for her to jump back into the hotel rep world. She'll listen to anyone that wants to talk but it doesnt mean that they'll offer her a job nor will she take it. She's happy where she's at and wont rule anything out. Just like CPF.

There's more to one side of the Phil story and its the portion we dont know. You're assuming its just schools that dont want Phil and you know what happens when you assume.

Boosh. Some people just don't ever learn. I've worked retail for 5 years, and now going elsewhere. I'm very good at retail, but it isn't what I want lifetime, etc.

Related to Fulmer, doesn't help that he's as old as he is, either. Everyone wants the young guys.

 

[GmanTN]

Denied. But who denied? was it the school or was it Phil? You nor I nor anyone know. He's also said he's comfortable where he is and what he's doing. That's denying them. Its a 50-50 shot of who shot the other one down.

Here's a non sports example: my wife worked in the hotel business as a sales rep. Did well, got raises, hit quotas, etc.... Then business began to slow due to a few factors - markets, economy, etc... so the hotel began to create a "file" on her writing her up for trivial stuff, micromanging, etc... until one day when she returned from her hysterectomy (one month out) they let her go. At the time she was the highest paid rep in the office and the hotel was hurting.

So she starts looking for a new job. Contacted a few hotels, had other hotels contact her. Some were far away, some didnt offer enough money, a variety of factors but they were an option. Then a job opened not in the hotel business but as a supplier to hotels. She weighed the pros and cons and went took the job. Now, she loves it. Sets her own hours, home with the kids more, makes as much most of the time more money than as a hotel sales rep. Its commission based so there's the ebbs and flows unlike a consistant paycheck from the hotel but she enjoys the other benefits more. Its a completely different business than she was used to but its a good fit.

So does she suck as a hotel sales rep because no one hired her as a sales rep? Well, no. Just because she got out of the business doesnt mean she sucks. She chose a different path and she enjoys it as much if not more. The option is there but the conditions have to right or better for her to jump back into the hotel rep world. She'll listen to anyone that wants to talk but it doesnt mean that they'll offer her a job nor will she take it. She's happy where she's at and wont rule anything out. Just like CPF.

There's more to one side of the Phil story and its the portion we dont know. You're assuming its just schools that dont want Phil and you know what happens when you assume.

Phillip Fulmer wants Kansas job? | CollegeFootballTalk

Fulmer says he would have ‘jumped all over’ Arkansas job | CollegeFootballTalk

I think if the man had been offered he would have jumped at the opportunity to have coached.

 

[TNGrad2012]

If any school thought Phil still had what it took to coach he would have been hired by now. Your reasons for 2005 and 2008 seasons is totally wrong and the only reason Phil did not end his career with 4 losing seasons is because of the return of Cutcliffe for the 06-07 seasons.

Bottomline if Phil had stay focused on recruiting more and less focus on what Sanders was doing, the drop in talent would not have happened. The drop in talent was the reason Phil was FIRED not retired and that is also been why it is taking us so long to dig out of this mess, and why no school has expressed an interest in hiring him.

Granted, Fulmer had a tactical advantage with Cutcliffe here rather than Randy Sanders, but Fulmer wasn't the best game day coach, and as I recall, he was still getting top ten recruiting classes even up to the year he was fired. Fulmer should have gone back to the strategies that worked for him as an offensive coordinator and what worked in 1998 and 1999 when we didn't have that potent of a passing attack, and that's running the football. If he had trusted his instincts and built the offensive line up to be maulers in the running game and have an offense that averaged 200+ rushing yards per game, we would be in a lot better shape now than we turned out to be. So yes, I concur with you on one thing to a point - Fulmer didn't recruit the right players at the right positions to further augment the offense in those years. (And let's face it, it was the offense and not the defense that sucked in '05 and '08. I think you and I could both agree with that assessment.)

 

[GmanTN]

2008 Phil Fulmer Recruiting Class Rank #35


•Five Stars: None
•Four Stars: Gerald Williams, E.J. Abrams-Ward, Aaron Douglas, Marlon Walls
•Three Stars: Casey Kelly, Preston Bailey, Rod Wilks, Tauren Poole, Prentiss Waggner, Steven Fowlkes, Willie Bohannon, Dallas Thomas, Austin Johnson, Ben Bartholomew, Herman Lathers
•Two Stars: Stephaun Raines, Carson Anderson, Montori Hughes

Of the 18 total signees in this class, only six have made long-term positive contributions to the program. All six are three stars.

I wouldn't say he had top 10 recruiting classes till the end.

 

[TNGrad2012]

2008 Phil Fulmer Recruiting Class Rank #35


•Five Stars: None
•Four Stars: Gerald Williams, E.J. Abrams-Ward, Aaron Douglas, Marlon Walls
•Three Stars: Casey Kelly, Preston Bailey, Rod Wilks, Tauren Poole, Prentiss Waggner, Steven Fowlkes, Willie Bohannon, Dallas Thomas, Austin Johnson, Ben Bartholomew, Herman Lathers
•Two Stars: Stephaun Raines, Carson Anderson, Montori Hughes

Of the 18 total signees in this class, only six have made long-term positive contributions to the program. All six are three stars.

I wouldn't say he had top 10 recruiting classes till the end.

Can you find what his recruiting classes were like from 2002-2007? I think that in those seasons, Tennessee fared much better.

 

[milohimself]

1997: beat Nebraska, and someone loses (can't remember who, maybe Kansas State?), the Vols win the National Championship.

One does not simply beat 97 nebraska

 

[TNGrad2012]

1997: beat Nebraska, and someone loses (can't remember who, maybe Kansas State?), the Vols win the National Championship.

1995: don't choke against Florida, they go undefeated and probably win the whole thing.

There are the 4 times for ya. And if you want another, 1999 should've been back to back, but a lost opportunity against Florida end a choke against Arkansas killed those chances.

One does not simply beat 97 nebraska

The other team that went undefeated and won the AP National Championship in '97 was Michigan. They beat Washington State 21-16 in the Rose Bowl and had the best defense in college football by a mile.

The game against Nebraska in the '98 Orange Bowl was actually tightly contested in the first half. I think Tennessee was down 14-10 to the Cornhuskers at halftime. I do recall that hit that whoever it was for Nebraska put on Jamal Lewis, though. I thought that he killed him after watching how Jamal went airborne and landed on his left hip. But the third quarter was when Nebraska did its damage. I think they put up 28 points in that quarter alone. Then they decided to rub it in a little bit more by running straight up the gut and scoring another touchdown to make the score 42-10. Finally, Tee Martin drove us down the field for a garbage time touchdown, but not after Nebraska had put its scrubs in. What a pathetic display of football on the part of Tennessee in that game!

 

[GmanTN]

Can you find what his recruiting classes were like from 2002-2007? I think that in those seasons, Tennessee fared much better.

The rankings don't really matter if the players signed don't live up to their potential thru coaching and the player remaining on the team.

Vols recruiting ranking in 03 was 18th and were 23rd in 06

 

[Ned Ray McWorkher]

Will this thread ever end?

Whenever the Fulmer haters admit defeat. They have clearly lost this debate.

 

[Ned Ray McWorkher]

One does not simply beat 97 nebraska

A mid-level NFL team does.

 

[GmanTN]

Hate is such a strong word Pimp, this thread will never end as long as the University of Fulmer lovers keep spewing their theories on how this HOF coach was so great and fail to acknowledge he drove us in the ditch.

 

[GreyWolf1129]

Hate is such a strong word Pimp, this thread will never end as long as the University of Fulmer lovers keep spewing their theories on how this HOF coach was so great and fail to acknowledge he drove us in the ditch.

Some of us can acknowledge both...that Fulmer was at the helm when UT Football was at it's pinnacle...and that his hand was still on the wheel when Tennessee Football struck the iceberg.

It is what it is. Fulmer deserves to be in the HOF, and he deserves to be the "former" UT coach.

Go Vols.

 

[GmanTN]

Some of us can acknowledge both...that Fulmer was at the helm when UT Football was at it's pinnacle...and that his hand was still on the wheel when Tennessee Football struck the iceberg.

It is what it is. Fulmer deserves to be in the HOF, and he deserves to be the "former" UT coach.

Go Vols.

I agree with you, from 1993 thru 2000 Phil had his best run, the second half is where I have issue. The teams never seemed to be coached in fundamentals and upsets seemed to happen more times than I care to remember.

Also during the second half of his career we saw other SEC schools upgrade their staffs and the lack of talent and busts seemed to rear its ugly head.

 

[GreveHaller]

Phillip Fulmer wants Kansas job? | CollegeFootballTalk

Fulmer says he would have ‘jumped all over’ Arkansas job | CollegeFootballTalk

I think if the man had been offered he would have jumped at the opportunity to have coached.

since you're so good at linking stuff, can you find the link where Ark or Kan said "we dont want him". Otherwise you again assuming from only showing one side of the story. Just because they didnt offer him the job doesnt mean they said no. If he didnt get the money or the benefits then if very well could have been Phil saying no, not the schools. We dont know.

 

[GmanTN]

since you're so good at linking stuff, can you find the link where Ark or Kan said "we dont want him". Otherwise you again assuming from only showing one side of the story. Just because they didnt offer him the job doesnt mean they said no. If he didnt get the money or the benefits then if very well could have been Phil saying no, not the schools. We dont know.

Phil wanted the jobs thats the whole issue here, not whether the schools said No or the benefits package was not up to Phils liking.

Do you think Ark or Kan would have said no to a Saban or a Miles, I think not. Phil was beat out by Weiss who does not have near the HC record of Phil, that tells me that universities do not hold Phil in the same spotlight that some on here do. Do you think either of those schools would have said no to Saban or at the very least would have had to release a statement as to why Saban did not get the position if it came down to benefits?

Benefits only come into the equation if the school wants the coach bad enough to list as their #1 HC target.