Fulmer debate extravaganza (merged)

[Ned Ray McWorkher]

:thumbsup:

 

[Gramps]

I am 37 and have no clue what field you are in, but your logic is better than most on here. This "debate" is insane. I have been posting in this thread for 3 years (so has volfanecs). Many Fulmer haters have came and went. All with tail tightly tucked. It appears that nothing will change, thanks to the young guns.

Pimp, you and volfanecs are old enough to know better.
Whobethis16 can be overlooked because of his youth.

 

[whobethis16]

Your posting that proved me wrong must have been deleted. I never saw it. Your screenname, whobethis16 is the reason I ask if you were 16.
It is sad that you are not old enough to remember the rise to power during the Johnny Majors era, the change of regimes and the glory years of the Fulmer era.
If you were old enough to have saw this you would realize that the Fulmer of the 1990's and the Fulmer of the 2000's were very different.Fulmer brought greatness to the program then he let it dwindle away to mediocrity.
That is fact. I give Fulmer credit for his glory years and I give him.credit for becoming complacent in the 2000's.
Anyone who says Fulmer was doing a good job the last few years is not looking at reality.

Compared to what historically UT football was, Fulmer was right on par during the later years. While it was bad compared to his run in the 90s, it wasn't as bad as people make it out to be. Would I have rather won more SECCGs and played for NCs? Of course, but I'm not so butthurt about a stretch where, despite not winning it, the team was always in the mix and competing. As I've said before, we will most likely go 10 years (and 3 coaches) without even a berth in the SECCG. How pathetic is that considering under the man that got the Vols over the hump we went every 3 years?

And my post is still there. It said that he was told on Nov. 3rd, press conference was on Nov. 4th, and they played Wyoming on Nov. 8th. So therefore, they lost to Wyoming less than a week after learning Fulmer was fired.

Edit: Nov. 2nd and 3rd, not 3rd and 4th. Publications were on the 4th, the day after. My mistake, but still less than a week.

 

[whobethis16]

I am 37 and have no clue what field you are in, but your logic is better than most on here. This "debate" is insane. I have been posting in this thread for 3 years (so has volfanecs). Many Fulmer haters have came and went. All with tail tightly tucked. It appears that nothing will change, thanks to the young guns.

Communication Studies was my undergrad. Learned theories and such regarding how people communicate in all sorts of situations. Conflict was a great course, and it is amazing seeing all those things discussed come out on here.

 

[Gramps]

Compared to what historically UT football was, Fulmer was right on par during the later years. While it was bad compared to his run in the 90s, it wasn't as bad as people make it out to be. Would I have rather won more SECCGs and played for NCs? Of course, but I'm not so butthurt about a stretch where, despite not winning it, the team was always in the mix and competing. As I've said before, we will most likely go 10 years (and 3 coaches) without even a berth in the SECCG. How pathetic is that considering under the man that got the Vols over the hump we went every 3 years?

And my post is still there. It said that he was told on Nov. 3rd, press conference was on Nov. 4th, and they played Wyoming on Nov. 8th. So therefore, they lost to Wyoming less than a week after learning Fulmer was fired.

Edit: Nov. 2nd and 3rd, not 3rd and 4th. Publications were on the 4th, the day after. My mistake, but still less than a week.

I would suggest you check the record book. Johnny Majors is the Head Coach that brought TN back to being a powerhouse. Fulmer took over a very good program that was the SEC Champions in 1985, 1989 and 1990.
Fulmer continued the success and won the NC in 1998. That was also the last year TN won the SEC.

 

[whobethis16]

I would suggest you check the record book. Johnny Majors is the Head Coach that brought TN back to being a powerhouse. Fulmer took over a very good program that was the SEC Champions in 1985, 1989 and 1990.
Fulmer continued the success and won the NC in 1998. That was also the last year TN won the SEC.

I have, and I've posted the records numerous times. And by the way, it was co-champions in 1990 with Bama, and only won in 1985 and 1989 due to Florida being on probation. I'm not saying I don't claim them because those are the rules, but that is how it went down. And without a championship game. Hard to say what Majors would've done if he had to win that.

For example, Majors had 4 seasons of .500 or less. The 70s had 6 seasons of 7 wins or fewer, 80s had 5 seasons of 7 or fewer, and the 60s had 4. So, yes, Fulmer was on par for most of UTs history.

 

[John Vol Jones]

I remember growing up in the 90s and wondering what it would be like to have to be a fan of a team that had years of being just terrible. Every time I see this thread with all its facts and figures, I just laugh at how young and dumb I was to think that I would never really know.

Disclaimer: At no point was this a pro/against Phil comment.

 

[GreveHaller]

I would suggest you check the record book. Johnny Majors is the Head Coach that brought TN back to being a powerhouse. Fulmer took over a very good program that was the SEC Champions in 1985, 1989 and 1990.
Fulmer continued the success and won the NC in 1998. That was also the last year TN won the SEC.

Johnny and Phil were both instrumental in taking the Vols back to the national spotlight. Without Johnny there would be no Phil. Without Phil we would probably have taken a step backwards.

Its interesting, Gramps, how you are so quick to point to Wyoming as your go-to shot on Phil even though its been pointed out that the game occurred just a few days after the decision had been made not to retain him for the following season. If you too would "check the record book" as you suggestion you'd see plenty of head scratching losses by Johnny too. In 79 after a loss to Rutgers (of all teams) he bounces back to beat Notre Dame then proceeds to lose the following week to Ole Miss. In 82 after ending the streak of losses to Bama in Bear's last visit to Neyland, he goes to Ga Tech and loses. Then in our 85 Sugar Bowl year after another win against Bama, its Ga Tech only this time it ends in a tie.

For as many losses as you want to direct your anger towards Phil there are just as many if not more we can pin on Johnny too

 

[volfanecs]

I am 37 and have no clue what field you are in, but your logic is better than most on here. This "debate" is insane. I have been posting in this thread for 3 years (so has volfanecs). Many Fulmer haters have came and went. All with tail tightly tucked. It appears that nothing will change, thanks to the young guns.

I agree my friend. It amazes me that any of CPF's accomplishments can be spun into luck or some other excuse. 152-52, the SEC was weak. NC, 2nd string quarterback. 1 year removed from the SECG, he backed into it. You name the accomplishment, and it will be downplayed. Wrong to treat the HOF coach of TENNESSEE in this manner.

 

[SmokeyFTW]

I agree my friend. It amazes me that any of CPF's accomplishments can be spun into luck or some other excuse. 152-52, the SEC was weak. NC, 2nd string quarterback. 1 year removed from the SECG, he backed into it. You name the accomplishment, and it will be downplayed. Wrong to treat the HOF coach of TENNESSEE in this manner.

Agree 100%

 

[Eddie Vol Halen]

If CBJ doesn't work out, two questions will be asked:

1. What happened with Gruden?

2. Why didn't we rehire Fulmer?

'nuff said.

 

[whobethis16]

If CBJ doesn't work out, two questions will be asked:

1. What happened with Gruden?

2. Why didn't we rehire Fulmer?

'nuff said.

I think Jones is a very good hire, I like him a lot, and think he will build on the stability that Dooley laid (yes, I like Dooley and wish he could've won more). I think he will win more than he loses, but it won't be enough to keep people from calling for his head before his contract runs out.

 

[GreveHaller]

I think Jones is a very good hire, I like him a lot, and think he will build on the stability that Dooley laid (yes, I like Dooley and wish he could've won more). I think he will win more than he loses, but it won't be enough to keep people from calling for his head before his contract runs out.

I think BJ is a good hire as well. I like that not only was he extremely enthusiastic about coaching here but he has a proven track record of success (with the exception of his first year at UC). Whether it translates into success in the SEC is yet to be seen but its a much better record than a sub .500 in a mid major conference or the flavor of the moment with no HC experience nor coordinator experience. I think that if he will show progress in wins from year to year he will be given some leeway but I dont think we'll ever see the leeway as Johnny Majors had with 9 years of not finishing in the top 20.

 

[Gramps]

Johnny and Phil were both instrumental in taking the Vols back to the national spotlight. Without Johnny there would be no Phil. Without Phil we would probably have taken a step backwards.

Its interesting, Gramps, how you are so quick to point to Wyoming as your go-to shot on Phil even though its been pointed out that the game occurred just a few days after the decision had been made not to retain him for the following season. If you too would "check the record book" as you suggestion you'd see plenty of head scratching losses by Johnny too. In 79 after a loss to Rutgers (of all teams) he bounces back to beat Notre Dame then proceeds to lose the following week to Ole Miss. In 82 after ending the streak of losses to Bama in Bear's last visit to Neyland, he goes to Ga Tech and loses. Then in our 85 Sugar Bowl year after another win against Bama, its Ga Tech only this time it ends in a tie.

For as many losses as you want to direct your anger towards Phil there are just as many if not more we can pin on Johnny too

I have no anger toward Phil. I think he became lazy and lost some of his drive after the 2001 season. It was time for him to go . I supported him 100% until the end of the 2001 season. IMO Fulmer made one of the dumbest mistakes I have saw any coach make when He allowed and participated in the waving of the roses after the Florida win. Bragging on how they were going to Pasadena and play for another NC. That turned me against Phil. They went on to lose to LSU in the SECCG and never made it to Pasadena.

I remember the Johnny loses. He seemed to know how to lose to a team he should beat bad. I remember those years very well. It took Johnny several years but he did make UT relevant again.

 

[VolsRule]

the last coach that left Cincinnati is playing for the national title. Hopefully, Butch has the same luck.

 

[whobethis16]

I have no anger toward Phil. I think he became lazy and lost some of his drive after the 2001 season. It was time for him to go . I supported him 100% until the end of the 2001 season. IMO Fulmer made one of the dumbest mistakes I have saw any coach make when He allowed and participated in the waving of the roses after the Florida win. Bragging on how they were going to Pasadena and play for another NC. That turned me against Phil. They went on to lose to LSU in the SECCG and never made it to Pasadena.

I remember the Johnny loses. He seemed to know how to lose to a team he should beat bad. I remember those years very well. It took Johnny several years but he did make UT relevant again.

But were you one that loved it when Kiffin said that they were going to sing Rocky Top all night in the Swamp and called Meyers a cheater? What's the difference if you did? People seem to flip flop their opinions about coaches. Fulmer clapped too much and wasn't fired up, when he showed confidence/arrogance he needs to tone it down, Kiffin's excitement was great, anything to win, Trooper looked like a fool. Where's the standard? I'm not saying you're one of them, if you're honestly not, but that is a trend on here.

 

[GreveHaller]

But were you one that loved it when Kiffin said that they were going to sing Rocky Top all night in the Swamp and called Meyers a cheater? What's the difference if you did? People seem to flip flop their opinions about coaches. Fulmer clapped too much and wasn't fired up, when he showed confidence/arrogance he needs to tone it down, Kiffin's excitement was great, anything to win, Trooper looked like a fool. Where's the standard? I'm not saying you're one of them, if you're honestly not, but that is a trend on here.

I think that when you have a site with as many users as VN has you never get a consistency. I've noticed it too when people speak of the Vols beat writers. There's never anyone that people like. Hyams hates UT, Doug Matthews is too old, etc... it doesnt matter who it is or who they work for there's something wrong with them. So when Gramps gets po'd at Phil's over confidence, I dont doubt him but his opinion was the minority.

 

[VolsRule]

it was clearly time for fulmer to go-he lost the recruiting edge and started losing too many games. But, hamilton totally screwed up both coaching hires and should have been fired himself after the kiffin disaster.

 

[whobethis16]

it was clearly time for fulmer to go-he lost the recruiting edge and started losing too many games. But, hamilton totally screwed up both coaching hires and should have been fired himself after the kiffin disaster.

But, even with that "bad recruiting", he had his team in 3 SECCGs, 4 times he was 1st or tied for 1st in the East, 5 seasons of 9+ wins, 6 of 8+, etc. So, we fired a guy that couldn't recruit, but could coach the Hell out of them?

 

[whobethis16]

I think that when you have a site with as many users as VN has you never get a consistency. I've noticed it too when people speak of the Vols beat writers. There's never anyone that people like. Hyams hates UT, Doug Matthews is too old, etc... it doesnt matter who it is or who they work for there's something wrong with them. So when Gramps gets po'd at Phil's over confidence, I dont doubt him but his opinion was the minority.

I actually agree with him that dancing with roses was the wrong thing to do, as a head coach. The head coach needs to stay humble and under control in the public eye, like Fulmer did almost exclusively. I loved the clapping because it showed he wasn't bothered. Whatever happened happened and he moved on. The assistants are fine with jumping up and down and all, like Trooper.

 

[Wylo]

But, even with that "bad recruiting", he had his team in 3 SECCGs, 4 times he was 1st or tied for 1st in the East, 5 seasons of 9+ wins, 6 of 8+, etc. So, we fired a guy that couldn't recruit, but could coach the Hell out of them?

How many SEC titles since 1998????

ZERO

 

[whobethis16]

How many SEC titles since 1998????

ZERO

But if his recruiting was so bad, they shouldn't have even been in contention for the title, much less even IN the title game. So which is it, Fulmer was awful at recruiting or awful at coaching? Cause obviously one of your arguments is wrong.

 

[sjrobert]

If CBJ doesn't work out, two questions will be asked:
2. Why didn't we rehire Fulmer?

That question would "ONLY" be asked by PF supporters. Those who recognize that PF was finished, for all practical purposes, will merely point out that the doofus Hamilton is the idiot who should have never gone after Kiffin, nor Dooley. Pink slipping PF wasn't the problem of MH. Whom he hired after PF and the manner in which he went about it was. And, it has been the biggest setback for UT football.

 

[whobethis16]

That question would "ONLY" be asked by PF supporters. Those who recognize that PF was finished, for all practical purposes, will merely point out that the doofus Hamilton is the idiot who should have never gone after Kiffin, nor Dooley. Pink slipping PF wasn't the problem of MH. Whom he hired after PF and the manner in which he went about it was. And, it has been the biggest setback for UT football.

Three strikes and you're out? That'd be 2 hires that the fanbase loved when they happened, and then one by a different AD that the fanbase is on the fence. If Jones doesn't work out (which I hope he will, cause I do like him), and then if the next doesn't, what will you think then? That it STILL was the right move?

 

[Eddie Vol Halen]

That question would "ONLY" be asked by PF supporters. Those who recognize that PF was finished, for all practical purposes, will merely point out that the doofus Hamilton is the idiot who should have never gone after Kiffin, nor Dooley. Pink slipping PF wasn't the problem of MH. Whom he hired after PF and the manner in which he went about it was. And, it has been the biggest setback for UT football.

This argument is absolutely ridiculous for one reason:

1. You either have THE homerun hire after Fulmer or you simply don't make a move.

If Kiffin's Daddy was the homerun hire, then you win (remember, Kiffin was hired with a Daddy clause).

I would love to see that poll. Would the 12 opposing fans join you, sj, to make a baker's dozen in the YES column?

You either have a better replacement ready or you don't. Kiffin managed to destroy a Top Ten class Fulmer put together - one with a better collegiate QB than Bray - and brought the program to its knees.

It's a no-brainer already. Firing Fulmer was dumb. Replacing him with Kiffin's Daddy and Dooley was dumber. Arguing these facts now is dumbest.