Fulmer Picking Up Steam/Schools looking at Fulmer?(merged)

#677
#677
utvolpj said:
Kiffin's involvement
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Kiffin was USC's recruiting coordinator during that time frame and was the recruiter for Bush. I don't have a link nor do I plan to look for one. It's not that important to me. The whole point is Kiffin is a great recruiter but uses less than desirable techniques for recruiting which gets the NCAA's attention. If you're arguing that Kiffin never bends or breaks rules during recruiting, there's really no use in us debating this. We really never convince the other of our opinion. My opinion based on Kiffin's past recruiting history is he would have got Newton if he had wanted him one way or the other.
 
#678
#678
BJSforVols said:
Kiffin was USC's recruiting coordinator during that time frame and was the recruiter for Bush. I don't have a link nor do I plan to look for one. It's not that important to me. The whole point is Kiffin is a great recruiter but uses less than desirable techniques for recruiting which gets the NCAA's attention. If you're arguing that Kiffin never bends or breaks rules during recruiting, there's really no use in us debating this. We really never convince the other of our opinion. My opinion based on Kiffin's past recruiting history is he would have got Newton if he had wanted him one way or the other.
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not saying he wouldn't break the rules but in the instance you choose to point out he was not mentioned in the findings. Maybe you have some info the NCAA didn't but if he was so involved surely they would have found something
 
#679
#679
BJSforVols said:
Kiffin was USC's recruiting coordinator during that time frame and was the recruiter for Bush. I don't have a link nor do I plan to look for one. It's not that important to me. The whole point is Kiffin is a great recruiter but uses less than desirable techniques for recruiting which gets the NCAA's attention. If you're arguing that Kiffin never bends or breaks rules during recruiting, there's really no use in us debating this. We really never convince the other of our opinion. My opinion based on Kiffin's past recruiting history is he would have got Newton if he had wanted him one way or the other.
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so let me get this straight. when kiffin recruited bush it's your theory that he knew that bush would take money from a agent 2 years later?
 
#680
#680
utvolpj said:
not saying he wouldn't break the rules but in the instance you choose to point out he was not mentioned in the findings. Maybe you have some info the NCAA didn't but if he was so involved surely they would have found something
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Nor has Auburn been mentioned as giving Newton $200K, so the situations are very similar.
 
#684
#684
droski said:
so let me get this straight. when kiffin recruited bush it's your theory that he knew that bush would take money from a agent 2 years later?
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Just as Auburn or Kiffin would have known Newton had someone other than Newton shopping around his services, yes. My whole point was debunking the theory that Kiffin thought $200K was too much for Newton and why he took Simms over Newton. The story about the $200K with Newton had nothing to do with why Kiffin did not choose Newton. If Kiffin had wanted Newton, he would have gotten him one way or the other. That was my point.

If USC had known nothing about the situation, they wouldn't be on probation as they are now. Turning your back to the agent does not mean you knew nothing about it. Not in the NCAA's eye at least.
 
#685
#685
BJSforVols said:
Just as Auburn or Kiffin would have known Newton had someone other than Newton shopping around his services, yes. My whole point was debunking the theory that Kiffin thought $200K was too much for Newton and why he took Simms over Newton. The story about the $200K with Newton had nothing to do with why Kiffin did not choose Newton. If Kiffin had wanted Newton, he would have gotten him one way or the other. That was my point.
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i'm really not following your logic. you think bush was shopping his services before he went to usc and then waited 2 years to cash in?

kiffin is a pro style coach. i imagine that might ahve something to do with not going after newton.
 
#686
#686
BJSforVols said:
If USC had known nothing about the situation, they wouldn't be on probation as they are now. Turning your back to the agent does not mean you knew nothing about it. Not in the NCAA's eye at least.
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completely agree. but that's a big difference between someone asking the school directly for money. if auburn actually paid him off the SC sanctions are going to look like a slap on the hand.
 
#687
#687
droski said:
i'm really not following your logic. you think bush was shopping his services before he went to usc and then waited 2 years to cash in?
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No clue, but possibly. I do think Bush got things from USC as a reward for coming to USC and I do think Kiffin was part of that. This is similar to how Newton's father's church got a donation from Auburn which is not against the rules. It's also starting to sound as if Newton may have not been the one selling his services but rather someone else who claimed they could deliver Newton. If this is the case, it may indicate someone was trying to make money off Newton with claims they could not back rather than Newton selling his services.

droski said:
Kiffin is a pro style coach. i imagine that might ahve something to do with not going after newton.
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Agree, and that was part of my whole point. If Kiffin had wanted Newton, the $200K would not have been a roadblock for Kiffin. Kiffin did not want Newton.
 
#689
#689
droski said:
completely agree. but that's a big difference between someone asking the school directly for money. if auburn actually paid him off the SC sanctions are going to look like a slap on the hand.
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Agree as well, but MSU was the one who was asked for money and they were asked by Kenny Rodgers - not Cam Newton. Nothing has come out indicating anyone asked Auburn for money.
 
#690
#690
droski said:
and your evidence of this is. . .
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Didn't say I know. I said I think which is an "opinion." I also think most every big name recruit for most big time schools are given things. I graduated from a school which is strong in engineering but doesn't put much into athletics. Even there, the athletes got things kids on academic scholorships would not get. That's probably a big part of what helps form my opinion. (I lived in the same dorm hall as the athletes for two years.)
 
#693
#693
BJSforVols said:
Didn't say I know. I said I think which is an "opinion." I also think most every big name recruit for most big time schools are given things. I graduated from a school which is strong in engineering but doesn't put much into athletics. Even there, the athletes got things kids on academic scholorships would not get. That's probably a big part of what helps form my opinion. (I lived in the same dorm hall as the athletes for two years.)
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so it's your belief that fulmer payed off erik berry?
 
#694
#694
droski said:
so it's your belief that fulmer payed off erik berry?
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It would not surprise me if Eric Berry got benefits or was at least offered them while at TN but not necessarily by Fulmer. I do suspect Fulmer knew of special benefits the athletes received or were offered but turned a shoulder as long as these benefits were within the loopholes of the rules. I think recruiters like Kiffin turn a shoulder even if the benefits are outside the loopholes of the rules but think they can figure out a loophole if it becomes necessary.

Yes, I think it goes on at all schools to some extent if the school is competetive. The difference in the legal versus crooked recruiters are if they turn their shoulders to the benefits they "know" are against the rules rather than just the rules which are possibly against the rules but possibly not.
 
#697
#697
utmba93 said:
Opinions can be based on evidence. Yours is not.

The lack of evidence increases the extent of speculation. At its extreme, that would become 'pure.'
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We may have to agree to disagree on this one. An opinion is speculation, or at least it is treated as such in a court of law. But for the purpose of your side of the debate, I did offer some evidence which helps form my opinion. You can read it a few posts above.
 
#698
#698
BJSforVols said:
We may have to agree to disagree on this one. An opinion is speculation, or at least it is treated as such in a court of law. But for the purpose of your side of the debate, I did offer some evidence which helps form my opinion. You can read it a few posts above.
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Your 'evidence' being that since it happened at your school, then "most every big name recruit for most big time schools are given things."

That evidence is irrelevant to the speculation that follows.

I'm sticking with 'pure speculation' as the appropriate description in your case against athletes (and coaches) about which you offer no relevant evidence.
 
#699
#699
utmba93 said:
Your 'evidence' being that since it happened at your school, then "most every big name recruit for most big time schools are given things."

That evidence is irrelevant to the speculation that follows.

I'm sticking with 'pure speculation' as the appropriate description in your case against athletes (and coaches) about which you offer no relevant evidence.
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We agree that it's speculation but for different reasons. It's my opinion and opinions are speculation. You explaination of "pure speculation" versus normal speculation and whatever else you try to explain in the last paragraph is about as valuable as the "pure speculation" you're trying to explain.:hi:
 
#700
#700
utgibbs said:
Biggest cop-out I've ever seen on this board.

Kiffin had a team with 7-NFL'ers on it, and, as we know, it was a 9-win team.

Dooley does have an excuse. It's named Lane Kiffin. Who turned away Cam Newton. Who gutted the team. Who recruited a busted class. Who left two days (hyperbole) before NSD.
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Kiffin inherited a team with some guys at certain positions that quite possibly were the worst starters in the entire SEC. He turned a couple of those guys into NFL draft picks.

Kiffin and Dooley both have the excuse of Fulmer virtually ignoring a systematic approach to recruiting. Kiffin even commented upon arriving it was like the last staff just flat out didn't try to recruit certain positions. The offensive and defensive lines were two of the major problems and they still are for Dooley since a good number of Kiffin's recruits in those areas decommitted when Lane went to USC.

And don't try that "as we know" stuff about 9 wins last year. The entire world, including Phil, thinks that's the stupidest thing that's ever been thought.
 
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