Game Thread: MTSU v Lady Vols, Tues. Nov 12th; Home-FCC; 6:30PM; SEC+ network: win 89-75

[lvocd]

I'm so glad we won. Gotta admit, I never felt completely confident we were going to win until about 6 minutes left in the 4th. Over the years the MTSU program has consistently been never-give-up gamers, and I was feeling a little shaky about it.

Thank goodness we outlasted them and had some well-timed big buckets to seal the deal.

FYI: I may be posting less often in the next day or two because I need some time to build my shrine to Lady Vol basketball goddesses Samara Spencer and Talaysia Cooper.

 

[Vunhopper]

100%. Which is where my frustration comes from with having that athleticism be on display vs. C-N, Samford, yet seemingly vanished against the first decent D1 team we play. I don't think the Lady Vols from 2 weeks ago let MTSU score 75 points, in my opinion. The team then was bringing tons of energy — not only in the full-court press, but even in the half-court D. Didn't see it that way tonight, but maybe that's my BVS coming out.

Either (a) I'm wrong about her system and the metrics/analytics being in its favor, as you say, or (b) the only way she fails here at UT is by failing on the S&C end and getting bullied by stronger teams (whose conditioning goes further than "let's do a bunch of cardio and have practices be even harder on your body than the games", which IMO can make you mentally strong, but softer physically than actual SEC S&C) come time to play against competition a bit stronger than the Mountain East and Sun Belt had.

And I hope I'm wrong about everything I'm saying. I'm sorry if I've given anyone, particularly thinking of Knox, second-hand cringe from what I've said, but it's coming from a place of wanting her to succeed (both as a Lady Vol fan and as a Grinnell System fan), with a fear that preserving her D2 S&C programme in her move to D1 won't work in the SEC. The UTM game was a bit concerning, and tonight's game far from relieved my concerns on this end. To let MTSU run their starters almost the entire game, and not drive them to fatigue to the point where they had to go the bench is a really bad look. Our system is supposed to be all about wearing out the opponent with better conditioning and playing the game around our conditioning and depth winning out in the end. Yet MTSU played 4 of their starters 38+ minutes, and they only lost by 14 . . . ? That's a red flag for Kim's team come conference time, unless they're able to make adjustments.

Yeah, Tennessee did so well under the last system where everybody just went through the motions. Bring back Kelly because I'm tired of all this winning. Let's go and dig Pat out of the grave or whatever your solution is. SMH

 

[KnoxLikeUs]

100%. Which is where my frustration comes from with having that athleticism be on display vs. C-N, Samford, yet seemingly vanished against the first decent D1 team we play. I don't think the Lady Vols from 2 weeks ago let MTSU score 75 points, in my opinion. The team then was bringing tons of energy — not only in the full-court press, but even in the half-court D. Didn't see it that way tonight, but maybe that's my BVS coming out.

Either (a) I'm wrong about her system and the metrics/analytics being in its favor, as you say, or (b) the only way she fails here at UT is by failing on the S&C end and getting bullied by stronger teams (whose conditioning goes further than "let's do a bunch of cardio and have practices be even harder on your body than the games", which IMO can make you mentally strong, but softer physically than actual SEC S&C) come time to play against competition a bit stronger than the Mountain East and Sun Belt had.

And I hope I'm wrong about everything I'm saying. I'm sorry if I've given anyone, particularly thinking of Knox, second-hand cringe from what I've said, but it's coming from a place of wanting her to succeed (both as a Lady Vol fan and as a Grinnell System fan), with a fear that preserving her D2 S&C programme in her move to D1 won't work in the SEC. The UTM game was a bit concerning, and tonight's game far from relieved my concerns on this end. To let MTSU run their starters almost the entire game, and not drive them to fatigue to the point where they had to go the bench is a really bad look. Our system is supposed to be all about wearing out the opponent with better conditioning and playing the game around our conditioning and depth winning out in the end. Yet MTSU played 4 of their starters 38+ minutes, and they only lost by 14 . . . ? That's a red flag for Kim's team come conference time, unless they're able to make adjustments.

The red flag is expecting anyone to take this serious in November about an undefeated team in Tennessee averaging 90+ ppg and earning a quality win against a team coming off an NCAA tourney berth.
I get it, you’re doing this from my perspective to gain attention and present this idea of knowledge of what’s to come.
Coach Caldwell and her team is getting positive reviews and press in sports media right now that contradicts your take.
Just keep posting. Feel like you’re apart of the moment if need be there’s nothing wrong with that it’s what the forum is for I guess.
In reality, this impressive win is part of arguably the greatest momentum and turn around I’ve witnessed of a women’s baskeball program.
The trickle down effect has been astonishing.
The recruiting, wins, and buzz has reinvigorated this program to another level.
GBO!

 

[newladyvolfan]

Starters:
Spencer
Jewel
Whitehorn
Latham
Puckett

2nd Unit
Boyd
Zee
Cooper

The offense and ball moves way better on offense with Spencer at point. Need to move Coop off the point.
but they need to cut someone out when a player gets hot.

They have a schedule of who goes in and etc but that coach needs to have a better feel of the flow of the game and the strengths and weaknesses of their players and their opponents and the potential match ups.

also, if we go on a certain scoring runs like we do maybe ride that group a little longer.

 

[Voluble2]

Have been reminded several times lately that there's no such thing (hardly) as a bad shot around here any more. The point is to chuck enough up that you'll eventually hit enough to win, esp if you also outrebound and turn over the other team. They don't put much value on fg %,. Quantity over quality.

Anyone telling you that doesn't know what they are talking about. The plan isn't just to chuck anything up. Our shot selection tonight was every bit as good if not better than what we had last year. In fact, we shot 3% better on 3's and 2% worse on 2's than last year's season averages so it was a very typical shooting night. And we are operating without one of the most efficient players in the women's game in Rickea.

There is plenty to criticize in getting a new system installed with new players. I am sure better teams will give us more competitive games and we will take our share of lumps. But saying there is no emphasis in hitting shots and being efficient on the offensive end in this scheme is just silly. Just because it is designed to handle the contingency of a poor shooting night doesn't mean it is designed to increase the likelihood of that contingency. That is like saying because you wear a life jacket on a boat your plan is to take less care driving it, or that you intend to crash it. It is a non sequitur.

 

[BruisedOrange]

100%. Which is where my frustration comes from with having that athleticism be on display vs. C-N, Samford, yet seemingly vanished against the first decent D1 team we play. I don't think the Lady Vols from 2 weeks ago let MTSU score 75 points, in my opinion. The team then was bringing tons of energy — not only in the full-court press, but even in the half-court D. Didn't see it that way tonight, but maybe that's my BVS coming out.

Either (a) I'm wrong about her system and the metrics/analytics being in its favor, as you say, or (b) the only way she fails here at UT is by failing on the S&C end and getting bullied by stronger teams (whose conditioning goes further than "let's do a bunch of cardio and have practices be even harder on your body than the games", which IMO can make you mentally strong, but softer physically than actual SEC S&C) come time to play against competition a bit stronger than the Mountain East and Sun Belt had.

And I hope I'm wrong about everything I'm saying. I'm sorry if I've given anyone, particularly thinking of Knox, second-hand cringe from what I've said, but it's coming from a place of wanting her to succeed (both as a Lady Vol fan and as a Grinnell System fan), with a fear that preserving her D2 S&C programme in her move to D1 won't work in the SEC. The UTM game was a bit concerning, and tonight's game far from relieved my concerns on this end. To let MTSU run their starters almost the entire game, and not drive them to fatigue to the point where they had to go the bench is a really bad look. Our system is supposed to be all about wearing out the opponent with better conditioning and playing the game around our conditioning and depth winning out in the end. Yet MTSU played 4 of their starters 38+ minutes, and they only lost by 14 . . . ? That's a red flag for Kim's team come conference time, unless they're able to make adjustments.

I also posted about the peculiar demands of this system and the need for S&C to recognize and respond. After posting that, I learned that she brought with her the S&C coach who has been with her for years, so we should be good there (unless the S&C coach gets lost in Tennessee's enormous weight room!).

Just on a personal level, can you imagine coming from tiny Glenville State to the massive Anderson Training Center, and coordinating your work with the assistance of a Director of Competition Development?!!

 

[Rooster1]

The sky is truly blue and the future is bright as hell, if you cannot see that you are looking through some cloudy filters from the past 10 years, relax and enjoy the ride, it’s coming. This is what the early signs of a resurgence looks like, just check out the damned recruiting in the past 4-5 mos. Compared to the previous 4-5 years, UT is on fire folks. This sport needs UT back in the conversation annually. It won’t take too long.

 

[Rooster1]

Starters:
Spencer
Jewel
Whitehorn
Latham
Puckett

2nd Unit
Boyd
Zee
Cooper

The offense and ball moves way better on offense with Spencer at point. Need to move Coop off the point.
but they need to cut someone out when a player gets hot.

They have a schedule of who goes in and etc but that coach needs to have a better feel of the flow of the game and the strengths and weaknesses of their players and their opponents and the potential match ups.

also, if we go on a certain scoring runs like we do maybe ride that group a little longer.

I suspect Zee is a normal starter and she deserves to be, prob depends on team matchups, letting the chief decide that, she knows best.

 

[lvocd]

I also posted about the peculiar demands of this system and the need for S&C to recognize and respond. After posting that, I learned that she brought with her the S&C coach who has been with her for years, so we should be good there (unless the S&C coach gets lost in Tennessee's enormous weigh room!).

Just on a personal level, can you imagine coming from tiny Glenville State to the massive Anderson Training Center, and coordinating your work with the assistance of a Director of Competition Development?!!

The transition had to be mindblowing.

My hope is that Kim begins to gradually increase the length of time between player shifts. My fear about staying strictly with the 1:30 sked is that the players, like batteries, will develop muscle memory and then shut down after exactly the same amount of time when there may -- and probably WILL -- be times when a certain group is looking great and really should be getting at least an extra minute or two.

I could just be full of it, too. I don't know. Just seems risky to never allow them to build just a little more stamina by sometimes extending their shifts at least a little.

 

[glv98]

Anyone telling you that doesn't know what they are talking about. The plan isn't just to chuck anything up. Our shot selection tonight was every bit as good if not better than what we had last year. In fact, we shot 3% better on 3's and 2% worse on 2's than last year's season averages so it was a very typical shooting night. And we are operating without one of the most efficient players in the women's game in Rickea.

There is plenty to criticize in getting a new system installed with new players. I am sure better teams will give us more competitive games and we will take our share of lumps. But saying there is no emphasis in hitting shots and being efficient on the offensive end in this scheme is just silly. Just because it is designed to handle the contingency of a poor shooting night doesn't mean it is designed to increase the likelihood of that contingency. That is like saying because you wear a life jacket on a boat your plan is to take less care driving it, or that you intend to crash it. It is a non sequitur.

What? I’ve been told this a dozen times this past week including several times in this thread tonight. The goal is more possessions and more attempts. FG efficiency is nice, but not a necessity nor a priority.

 

[BruisedOrange]

The offense and ball moves way better on offense with Spencer at point. Need to move Coop off the point.
but they need to cut someone out when a player gets hot.

They have a schedule of who goes in and etc but that coach needs to have a better feel of the flow of the game and the strengths and weaknesses of their players and their opponents and the potential match ups.

also, if we go on a certain scoring runs like we do maybe ride that group a little longer.

That's a reasonable move in respect to shooting,
but CKC says that if they are playing the way the staff is insisting that they play, they will absolutely have to come out for a breather when the substitutions happen. And any player who has some gas left hasn't been playing all-out like they're supposed to.

I heard on a CKC post game from before she came to Tennessee that she wasn't concerned in that game about being behind in the first three quarters, because she knew her players were wearing them down and would take the win in the fourth quarter.

 

[Rooster1]

The transition had to be mindblowing.

My hope is that Kim begins to gradually increase the length of time between player shifts. My fear about staying strictly with the 1:30 sked is that the players, like batteries, will develop muscle memory and then shut down after exactly the same amount of time when there may -- and probably WILL -- be times when a certain group is looking great and really should be getting at least an extra minute or two.

I could just be full of it, too. I don't know. Just seems risky to never allow them to build just a little more stamina by sometimes extending their shifts at least a little.

There you go trying to improve upon the system your coach has worked years to perfect. Give her some credit.

 

[RespectAPA]

You can tell a team is tired when they miss free throws which MTSU was doing at a high rate at the end of the game. Their bench is very thin there was no chance any of his starters was coming out. The press isn’t going to turn every team over 30 times a game. Some nights it’s going to be great and other nights it might not. It’s a new system this team is still learning. Give it time.

So MTSU was tired, yet we only outscored them 3 points in the second half. What does that say about our conditioning? about the energy we played with?

It being a new system didn't keep them from beating UNC in a scrimmage, and beating C-N by 86 points. That C-N team is worse than MTSU, but they are not 72 points worse. The bigger part of the 72 point difference there is Tennessee playing worse and with less energy, not in MTSU playing 72 points better than Carson-Newman did.

Could also fail if opponent is talented enough to break your press, big enough to stay with you on the boards, and deep enough to avoid getting worn down. Like the top teams in the SEC.

Break the press at what rate? I don't think any team is "talented enough" to break the press often enough to nullify the benefit of the easy 2s that come from its moments of success.
Big enough to rebound? Sure, size matters a lot no matter what, but rebounding in this system is, in large part, getting loose balls. Marshall's top rebounder wasn't a big girl, she's 5'4"!
Deep enough? Sure, but if we had good conditioning, we should always been the team on the court bringing more energy. There wasn't many possessions of the game today where that was on display...

Yeah, Tennessee did so well under the last system where everybody just went through the motions. Bring back Kelly because I'm tired of all this winning. Let's go and dig Pat out of the grave or whatever your solution is. SMH

The solution would just be for Kim to come to the conclusion that she won in spite of her S&C programme, not because of it. Communicate with the S&C minds at a top level SEC program like UT to figure out what it is she needs to get the most out of her players in the way she needs. Trying to win D1 Championships with D2 S&C can only work if her in-game System is able to overcome even without getting 110% out of the players at all time. Which it might be — but it means that we might not make the Final Four with rosters that should be making it with this System, if you were actually getting every bit of athleticism out of these girls that they have.

 

[VolBall09]

The transition had to be mindblowing.

My hope is that Kim begins to gradually increase the length of time between player shifts. My fear about staying strictly with the 1:30 sked is that the players, like batteries, will develop muscle memory and then shut down after exactly the same amount of time when there may -- and probably WILL -- be times when a certain group is looking great and really should be getting at least an extra minute or two.

I could just be full of it, too. I don't know. Just seems risky to never allow them to build just a little more stamina by sometimes extending their shifts at least a little.

She said in a presser recently exactly that. As roles become more clear and the players get in game shape the rotations will get longer minutes and the the bench will get shorter to some degree.

Could already see a bit of that tonight. Still rotated players rapidly but the minutes distribution was different. Pretty clear who is going to be getting the most time.

She got players like Ayodele more minutes in the first couple games but that drastically decreased today. By contrast Latham’s minutes went way up as she took some of Puckett’s due to foul trouble and sloppy play.

Did they mention if Ace had some sort of injury? She’s a player I don’t expect to see much of after the first few weeks here.

 

[therealitytheory]

100%. Which is where my frustration comes from with having that athleticism be on display vs. C-N, Samford, yet seemingly vanished against the first decent D1 team we play. I don't think the Lady Vols from 2 weeks ago let MTSU score 75 points, in my opinion. The team then was bringing tons of energy — not only in the full-court press, but even in the half-court D. Didn't see it that way tonight, but maybe that's my BVS coming out.

Either (a) I'm wrong about her system and the metrics/analytics being in its favor, as you say, or (b) the only way she fails here at UT is by failing on the S&C end and getting bullied by stronger teams (whose conditioning goes further than "let's do a bunch of cardio and have practices be even harder on your body than the games", which IMO can make you mentally strong, but softer physically than actual SEC S&C) come time to play against competition a bit stronger than the Mountain East and Sun Belt had.

And I hope I'm wrong about everything I'm saying. I'm sorry if I've given anyone, particularly thinking of Knox, second-hand cringe from what I've said, but it's coming from a place of wanting her to succeed (both as a Lady Vol fan and as a Grinnell System fan), with a fear that preserving her D2 S&C programme in her move to D1 won't work in the SEC. The UTM game was a bit concerning, and tonight's game far from relieved my concerns on this end. To let MTSU run their starters almost the entire game, and not drive them to fatigue to the point where they had to go the bench is a really bad look. Our system is supposed to be all about wearing out the opponent with better conditioning and playing the game around our conditioning and depth winning out in the end. Yet MTSU played 4 of their starters 38+ minutes, and they only lost by 14 . . . ? That's a red flag for Kim's team come conference time, unless they're able to make adjustments.

 

[lvocd]

There you go trying to improve upon the system your coach has worked years to perfect. Give her some credit.

It was just a tad frustrating tonight when a player would finally hit a couple of shots, block a shot, make a steal -- and then immediately go to the bench.

I trust that Kim knows what she's doing. I'm just thinking as a former athlete who remembers how debilitating the burn can be if one gets used to doing things in very short spurts than at some point has to do a longer run. It's no joke.

The season is still in its infancy, though, so I'm sure everything will come together in good time. That MTSU team beat us by double digits last year, and we just beat them by double digits. I'm thrilled with that outcome!

 

[KnoxLikeUs]

The sky is truly blue and the future is bright as hell, if you cannot see that you are looking through some cloudy filters from the past 10 years, relax and enjoy the ride, it’s coming. This is what the early signs of a resurgence looks like, just check out the damned recruiting in the past 4-5 mos. Compared to the previous 4-5 years, UT is on fire folks. This sport needs UT back in the conversation annually. It won’t take too long.

The Lady Vols are trending on Twitter as we speak.. on a weeknight after beating Middle Tennessee State a day following being the talk of every single national recruiting circle after landing another 5-star Top 15 commit and currently a Top 2 recruiting class.
The folks trying to discredit this new era are doing themselves a disservice.
Sports are fun and for entertainment.
I couldn’t invest this much energy into a fallacy when as you and others have pointed out when Tennessee is good it’s great for WBB.
Tennessee is indeed in the makings of something special.

 

[Rooster1]

It was just a tad frustrating tonight when a player would finally hit a couple of shots, block a shot, make a steal -- and then immediately go to the bench.

I trust that Kim knows what she's doing. I'm just thinking as a former athlete who remembers how debilitating the burn can be if one gets used to doing things in very short spurts than at some point has to do a longer run. It's no joke.

The season is still in its infancy, though, so I'm sure everything will come together in good time. That MTSU team beat us by double digits last year, and we just beat them by double digits. I'm thrilled with that outcome!

And…..she is just getting her team rolling some now, it will keep getting better as the season progresses. I wonder how some fans cannot see what is happening, esp with the recruiting and depth built in such a short time. But the system is the key for your coach, she has an identity for her teams and she forces it on every team she plays. If we speed fwd 2-3 seasons the results will look like it was always a given imo, you just have to be able to watch it grow at a reasonable pace, like evolution, give it time and watch what happens. This one won’t take too long btw, it is evolving quickly.

Maybe her Marshall year spoiled everyone to believe it will all happen overnight, but it gets better with time like most things and the trajectory is pointing way up. She rebuilt this roster in one season, is teaching a novel system in year one, and is stacking the players needed to play her system in bunches quickly….,oh my, I see it. It’s like evolution on steroids.

 

[lvocd]

And…..she is just getting her team rolling some now, it will keep getting better as the season progresses. I wonder how some fans cannot see what is happening, esp with the recruiting and depth built in such a short time. But the system is the key for your coach, she has an identity for her teams and she forces it on every team she plays. If we speed fwd 2-3 seasons the results will look like it was always a given imo, you just have to be able to watch it grow at a reasonable pace. Maybe her Marshall year spoiled everyone to believe it will all happen overnight, but it gets better with time like most things and the trajectory is pointing way up.

Don't get me wrong. I absolutely love Caldwell and think she is ALREADY a huge success. And it's only going to get better.

But we're humans, with feelings and fears and, sometimes unfortunately, memories. It is not an indictment on Kim if natural fears come up. We can love her system and worry about it at the same time, and it just is what it is as a fan of this program.

You can relax. Tennessee fans know how to do this.

 

[Rooster1]

Don't get me wrong. I absolutely love Caldwell and think she is ALREADY a huge success. And it's only going to get better.

But we're humans, with feelings and fears and, sometimes unfortunately, memories. It is not an indictment on Kim if natural fears come up. We can love her system and worry about it at the same time, and it just is what it is as a fan of this program.

You can relax. Tennessee fans know how to do this.

I know they do. It’s in their DNA, just has been suppressed for awhile, some folks get rusty. Time to shake the rust off. Enjoy the ride again bro. You won’t know much about this season until the conference schedule kicks in because of the OOC schedule, but by Jan/Feb you will recognize the excellence.

 

[chuckiepoo]

Don't get me wrong. I absolutely love Caldwell and think she is ALREADY a huge success. And it's only going to get better.

But we're humans, with feelings and fears and, sometimes unfortunately, memories. It is not an indictment on Kim if natural fears come up. We can love her system and worry about it at the same time, and it just is what it is as a fan of this program.

You can relax. Tennessee fans know how to do this.

 

[glv98]

She’s so honest and direct! Hated the half court D. Said they got tired and took their foot off the gas on the press, Said she wished sometimes they’d shoot less 3s and more layups. Said flat and simple NO when asked if frequent subbing, esp when a player is hot, hurts 3 pt shooting. Proud of their resiliency and that they never panicked.

 

[BruisedOrange]

 

[Dainfluencer8]

The transition had to be mindblowing.

My hope is that Kim begins to gradually increase the length of time between player shifts. My fear about staying strictly with the 1:30 sked is that the players, like batteries, will develop muscle memory and then shut down after exactly the same amount of time when there may -- and probably WILL -- be times when a certain group is looking great and really should be getting at least an extra minute or two.

I could just be full of it, too. I don't know. Just seems risky to never allow them to build just a little more stamina by sometimes extending their shifts at least a little.

Coach Kim has already stated that this is the way the team will play until sometime in December or when she feels they can handle the full court press for longer minutes. She also stated, she prefer to start out the season with short substitutions and build it up as the season moves along!

 

[Vunhopper]

Every player on Lady Vols roster has more talent than any player Caldwell has ever coached. There is no reason for any of them to ride the pine.