Hardnosed political discussion . . .

[OrangeEmpire]

I am going to have fun with Fox News......THE REPUBLICAN NEWS CHANNEL!

Check out the headlines, below are some examples.
Upcheer

 

[GAVol]

Fox News gets constantly skewered for being the "Republican" channel. IMO, it would be more accurate to call it "The NOT Democrat" channel.

 

[smokedog#3]

the way i see it fox leans toward republicans and cnn leans toward democrats.

 

[OrangeEmpire]

Fox News gets constantly skewered for being the "Republican" channel. IMO, it would be more accurate to call it "The NOT Democrat" channel.

Now you are sounding like O'Reilly, I am not a Republican........sure........ :blink:

If you are not a Democrat then what are you?

There is no shame to it, Fox News is a conservative news channel. I doubt they have a red phone line to the oval office but there is no doubt the programming is geared toward Republicans/conservatives.

 

[OrangeEmpire]

One of you had to find the Shep Smith/Titanic story funny........... :biggrin2:

 

[hatvol96]

If you are not a Democrat then what are you?

A rational thinker.

 

[OrangeEmpire]

No argument from me.......................

I figure I had better put a funny up of CNN to keep my posts fair and balanced.......

 

[OrangeEmpire]

Lets not forget PBS

 

[GAVol]

A rational thinker.

It's hard for some people to believe that there are actually people left out there who reject the spoon feeding and evaluate things themselves and form their own opinions.

 

[OrangeEmpire]

It's hard for some people to believe that there are actually people left out there who reject the spoon feeding and evaluate things themselves and form their own opinions.

How dare you think I can think on my own!

I need government!

:blush:

*On a side note, how scary is it that people actually depend on their well being to survive. You know what I am talking about before I get blasted..............

 

[OldVol]

And here is what you responded to:

The numbers I posted for class purposes were meant to reflect a family of 3 based on total household income.

The numbers I pulled from the top of my head, $15 to $30 dollars in the previous post, I did not attach to a 3 family household, if that's your point.

As I pointed out, I'm not certain of those numbers, but they are a platform for beginning discussions on a topic such as this.

Obviously, a two earner family of 25 dollars or so would put them in a little higher class than lower-middle.

If that's your point.

If that's not your point, Id be grateful if you'd just make it instead of the cloak and dagger. :biggrin2:

 

[OldVol]

There is nothing morally or intrinsically wrong with hiring anyone you wish to do a job for you at whatever wage the two of you agree to.

It is morally wrong if there is a statute that forbids it.

Even the bible tells us to obey the laws of the land.

I don't know of any belief system that approves of disobeying the law.

 

[OldVol]

In reading this thread I have come to a conclusion.

Once Smokedog and therealUT come to grips with the fact that they are often arguing the same point, this thread will fizzle. :biggrin2:

 

[hatvol96]

It is morally wrong if there is a statute that forbids it.

Even the bible tells us to obey the laws of the land.

I don't know of any belief system that approves of disobeying the law.

So, for most of American history, adhering to segregation was a moral imperative?

 

[therealUT]

It is morally wrong if there is a statute that forbids it.

Even the bible tells us to obey the laws of the land.

I don't know of any belief system that approves of disobeying the law.

The Bible also has an interesting verse about eyes and teeth, which, I am pretty sure would be in violation of the laws of the land in many places.

There are plenty of examples of people 'disobeying statutes,' in order to do the right thing. For a great example, read The Diary of Anne Frank.

 

[hatvol96]

It is morally wrong if there is a statute that forbids it.

Even the bible tells us to obey the laws of the land.

I don't know of any belief system that approves of disobeying the law.

So, Afghans who resisted the Taliban and Germans who opposed the Nazis were immoral?

 

[OldVol]

The Bible also has an interesting verse about eyes and teeth, which, I am pretty sure would be in violation of the laws of the land in many places.

There are plenty of examples of people 'disobeying statutes,' in order to do the right thing. For a great example, read The Diary of Anne Frank.

Comparing labor laws to fascism and racism is a grand stretch to attempt to prove a point.

Should we also stop paying taxes because we find them morally reprehensible?

No person of conscious would encourage the mistreatment of other human beings, even beneath the cloak of statute, but labor laws are not reprehensible to the masses. They are merely attractive to the businessmen who seek to engorge their profits at the expense of government (they break every tax law on the book by hiring illegals) while destroying the quality of life of the honest and noble working class.

Just because a person is not college educated is no reason for them to live near or below the poverty line in the land of plenty. Many people who are not college graduates are nonetheless intelligent people. Bill Gates did not finish college nor did Stephen Spielberg (sp?), but they are both hugely successful. There are many honest, intelligent Americans who, for reasons other than goofing off in class, were unable to finish high school, but they deserve an opportunity at a good life if they are hard working and diligent. They should not be condemned to a life of scraping by because business wishes to hire illegals that cut their hopes of a decent wage.

As a conservative, I deplore most government give-aways, but I also deplore the rape of the working class by greedy, get rich quick business people who pillage the working class through the use of illegal workers. It is a disgraceful tactic and it should be stopped.

 

[hatvol96]

Comparing labor laws to fascism and racism is a grand stretch to attempt to prove a point.

Should we also stop paying taxes because we find them morally reprehensible?

No person of conscious would encourage the mistreatment of other human beings, even beneath the cloak of statute, but labor laws are not reprehensible to the masses. They are merely attractive to the businessmen who seek to engorge their profits at the expense of government (they break every tax law on the book by hiring illegals) while destroying the quality of life of the honest and noble working class.

Just because a person is not college educated is no reason for them to live near or below the poverty line in the land of plenty. Many people who are not college graduates are nonetheless intelligent people. Bill Gates did not finish college nor did Stephen Spielberg (sp?), but they are both hugely successful. There are many honest, intelligent Americans who, for reasons other than goofing off in class, were unable to finish high school, but they deserve an opportunity at a good life if they are hard working and diligent. They should not be condemned to a life of scraping by because business wishes to hire illegals that cut their hopes of a decent wage.

As a conservative, I deplore most government give-aways, but I also deplore the rape of the working class by greedy, get rich quick business people who pillage the working class through the use of illegal workers. It is a disgraceful tactic and it should be stopped.

I don't disagree with you on a good portion of what is contained in the post above. However, I see no point in addressing people in the country illegally now if we aren't going to secure the borders. I think it makes far more sense to secure the borders first, then deal with those who are already here. We would have a much more accurate picture of the effects, positive and negative, of illegals on the nation.

 

[orange+white=heaven]

....while destroying the quality of life of the honest and noble working class.

I would point out that there are now a great many jobs that the honest and noble working class now considers to be beneath them. Carpet mills in Dalton, GA simply cannot find enough folks willing to fill the many jobs that they continually have available.

I don't disagree with the center of your point OldVol, but we should admit that there are jobs these folks are willing to do that others are not. How does the employer faced with this reality keep his doors open if these folks are gone?

 

[jakez4ut]

i work in the trucking industry, which is solely based on service and cost. So my opinion on this is two fold:

1. As the cost of manufacturing goods go up, wealth goes down. The easiest way to reduce that cost is by way of labor cuts or wage cuts. the immigrant population that is in our workforce has enabled many of those costs to remain affordable to the general population.

As many have pointed out, the dwindling number of people out there that were making $20-$30 per hour and are considered middle to lower middle class are being replaced by people, legal or not, that will do the same work for $10 hour, thus keeping costs lower. Whether we like it or not, if we did away with that population of people and paid those union type wages, our costs would go up.

2. There are less and less Americans that are qualified, and by that i mean never went to college and have no additional training to become upwardly mobile, to do the manual labor needed in all industries and likewise the types of jobs that those that are adequately educated and trained are getting less and less as well. Not everyone can be an executive or in middle/upper management.

So you have a ripple affect that can be seen as Smoke pointed out at these manual labor types of jobs. Less Americans desire those types of jobs. And less Americans are willing to pay the increased costs when Americans are doing the jobs. Result: you get what you pay for. and if anyone doesn't think that illegal immigrants aren't paid under the table...i would suggest that you have a house built and check out the sub contractor's labor that show up to paint, do the landscaping, drywall etc.....trust me on that one, and i live in NC.

I think this also points out a major flaw in our economy. Being in the trucking industry, and working side by side with many of our customers, less and less of these companies are actually manufacturing their own products. When we pick up frieght, many times we are no longer picking up goods at a manufacturing facility or deivery bulk goods to a manufacturing facility, rather, we are picking up and delivery finished goods and deiverying direct to the end user. Most of the type of business we see these days is imported, pre packaged and picked up at distribution centers or deivered to distribution centers.

this economy is slowly moving out of the industrial age and in to the service age. And in service, you don't necessarily have a better product to sell, thus warranting a higher price, but you have the same service as your competior, and you can perform that service at a lower cost, that being the only real benefit. As this trend continues to occur, cost will continue to be an overriding factor, and labor will continue to be heavily scrutinized. And as labor costs continue to get lower and lower, quality continues to get poorer and poorer.

Think about it....

I'm not saying they should be deported, and i'm not saying they should all be given amnesty, but they do have a purpose, and there is a resolution to the problem somewhere in the middle. Removing that part of the population would have a baloon affect immediately on the middle and upper middle class, and would benfit no one, short term, because cost of living would go up, much faster than incomes would mind you.

so as for an answer to the problem, i don't know....but i do know that simply deporting them or simply saying give them amnesty is not the answer.

though, if i could make one request....could we teach them English?

 

[OldVol]

I don't disagree with you on a good portion of what is contained in the post above. However, I see no point in addressing people in the country illegally now if we aren't going to secure the borders. I think it makes far more sense to secure the borders first, then deal with those who are already here. We would have a much more accurate picture of the effects, positive and negative, of illegals on the nation.

I agree, deporting them without securing the borders would be like attempting to to empty the pond with a strainer.

However, we have enough capability with our national guard that we could secure the border within weeks.

A mass deportation and border security could be accomplished, almost simultaneously, if our governemtn really wished to do it. The problem is with our government, not the Mexican government, or the Mexican people.

Neither side of the isle in Washington wants to deal with this problem because most of them are on the take from special interests who are lining the pockets of politicians of both parties.

It is criminal on a host of levels.

 

[OldVol]

I would point out that there are now a great many jobs that the honest and noble working class now considers to be beneath them. Carpet mills in Dalton, GA simply cannot find enough folks willing to fill the many jobs that they continually have available.

I don't disagree with the center of your point OldVol, but we should admit that there are jobs these folks are willing to do that others are not. How does the employer faced with this reality keep his doors open if these folks are gone?

But, it's a wicked cycle that perpetuates this.

The reason Americans don't want those carpet mill jobs is they can't raise a family on what they pay because the pay has been driven down because of the over abundant availability of illegals.

It's kind of like what came first? The chicken or the egg?

The answer is, fix the immigration problem, deport those here illegally, and the pay and labor issue will take care of itself.

When there are more jobs than workers, then and only then should we allow in more immigrants, and they should all be taxed and paid in accordance with our labor laws.

Until that happens we're like the dog chasing its tail.

What're we going to do with it when we catch it? :blink:

 

[jakez4ut]

I agree, deporting them without securing the borders would be like attempting to to empty the pond with a strainer.

However, we have enough capability with our national guard that we could secure the border within weeks.

A mass deportation and border security could be accomplished, almost simultaneously, if our governemtn really wished to do it. The problem is with our government, not the Mexican government, or the Mexican people.

Neither side of the isle in Washington wants to deal with this problem because most of them are on the take from special interests who are lining the pockets of politicians of both parties.

It is criminal on a host of levels.

that i do agree with....we created this monster, and now have no idea, or seem to have no idea, how to deal with it....it seems more and more to me that the politicians are too busy deciding how this group of the population could benefit which side of the isle and how before they decide to do anything.

 

[GAVol]

But, it's a wicked cycle that perpetuates this.

The reason Americans don't want those carpet mill jobs is they can't raise a family on what they pay because the pay has been driven down because of the over abundant availability of illegals.

It's kind of like what came first? The chicken or the egg?

Sometimes it scares me how much sense you make. ost-20645-1119625378:

 

[jakez4ut]

Sometimes it scares me how much sense you make. ost-20645-1119625378:

yep...cause the flipsid of that is true as well....would those carpet companies be able to sell their products at a higher retail price becaue of the increased labor costs that would now exist? And when in fact did all of this happen? what was the overriding decison to employ such labor? Cost more than likely.

We can't sell carpet at the same price as our competitors because it costs us more to manufacture...hence the chicken/egg....

and the truly sad thing is, and this has been at the forefront of American business for a long time, there are much better ways to cut costs than just slashing wages or jobs even. but that has the mose immediate impact, and is generally the route taken.

it never ceases to amaze me....step over $100 to save a $1.