Hardnosed political discussion . . .

[therealUT]

Comparing labor laws to fascism and racism is a grand stretch to attempt to prove a point.

Should we also stop paying taxes because we find them morally reprehensible?

No person of conscious would encourage the mistreatment of other human beings, even beneath the cloak of statute, but labor laws are not reprehensible to the masses. They are merely attractive to the businessmen who seek to engorge their profits at the expense of government (they break every tax law on the book by hiring illegals) while destroying the quality of life of the honest and noble working class.

Just because a person is not college educated is no reason for them to live near or below the poverty line in the land of plenty. Many people who are not college graduates are nonetheless intelligent people. Bill Gates did not finish college nor did Stephen Spielberg (sp?), but they are both hugely successful. There are many honest, intelligent Americans who, for reasons other than goofing off in class, were unable to finish high school, but they deserve an opportunity at a good life if they are hard working and diligent. They should not be condemned to a life of scraping by because business wishes to hire illegals that cut their hopes of a decent wage.

As a conservative, I deplore most government give-aways, but I also deplore the rape of the working class by greedy, get rich quick business people who pillage the working class through the use of illegal workers. It is a disgraceful tactic and it should be stopped.

Only if you want to pay more...
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[jakez4ut]

and this may not be popular either, but unions have contributed to this as well by driving up labor costs to the point where many American workers have in fact lost those jobs due to companies going out business.....

 

[hatvol96]

I agree, deporting them without securing the borders would be like attempting to to empty the pond with a strainer.

However, we have enough capability with our national guard that we could secure the border within weeks.

A mass deportation and border security could be accomplished, almost simultaneously, if our governemtn really wished to do it. The problem is with our government, not the Mexican government, or the Mexican people.

Neither side of the isle in Washington wants to deal with this problem because most of them are on the take from special interests who are lining the pockets of politicians of both parties.

It is criminal on a host of levels.

I'm not sure a mass deportation would have the positive effects many think. First, longtime illegals are integrated into many communities and make up significant portions of the workforce and sales tax base. Second, the expected increase in wages for individuals performing manual labor would not be near as large as the increase in cost. Once workers' compensation insurance, taxes, and other attendant expenses are factored in, you can be sure that business will pass massive cost increases along to the consumer. Finally, I will give an observation I have made from growing up in East Tennessee. The county I grew up in is home to one of the largest roofing companies in the South, as well as a number of relatively large tobacco farms. I know many of the owners and operators of these enterprises. They are solid, patriotic individuals. They simply cannot find a sufficient number of workers to do manual labor for a reasonable wage. The welfare state has created a disproportionate sense of entitlement among the populace. People think they're entitiled to a new car, a big house, a satellite dish, and a swimming pool simply for showing up for work. I agree with OldVol that the lack of a college education should not relegate someone to a life of poverty. However, the flip side of that is that those who aren't blessed with the ability and/or opportunity to pursue higher education have to be realistic. They aren't going to enjoy the same lifestyle as their more educated contemporaries. Every operator I referenced above pays their workers, legal and illegal, fair market wages. One can make a living. They won't get rich, but there will be food on the table. Too many Americans think that they are entitled to more.

 

[volinasheville]

I am curious about the effects of NAFTA on this whole issue. My family owns a good bit of land in northern Alabama (though no one still lives in that state) where there once were factories that made more than a quarter of all the socks made in America. We sold several parcels of property to people who started new factories in the mid-1990's and all are now closed and the production moved to Mexico. Can anyone help me understand why we move all this production to Mexico and all the workers come here? I assume it to be a function of wages here v. Mexico.

 

[jakez4ut]

I am curious about the effects of NAFTA on this whole issue. My family owns a good bit of land in northern Alabama (though no one still lives in that state) where there once were factories that made more than a quarter of all the socks made in America. We sold several parcels of property to people who started new factories in the mid-1990's and all are now closed and the production moved to Mexico. Can anyone help me understand why we move all this production to Mexico and all the workers come here? I assume it to be a function of wages here v. Mexico.

if i'm not mistaken, NAFTA basically made it much easier to get goods across the borders in North America....so companies that had once reaped the benefit of reduced transportation costs by manufacturing and shipping w/in the US, got even greater benefits by being able to move across the border for cheaper wages and still get the goods in to the US easier/cheaper than before under previous laws.

at least that's my understanding of it....i'm sure some of the other posters here can probably give you much more and accurate info on the subject.

 

[OldVol]

This has been a good discussion.

For the most part, without posturing and nauseous flatulence.

As I said, I'm not Allen Greenspan, perhaps some of you said, praise the Lord, others may say, well, that's a shame. Mr. Greenspan's popularity seems to have no middle ground. You either admire him or loathe him.

That said, I have studied economics. A quarter of century (more actually) ago. I have post-graduate work in economics, but I have never, nor do I now claim to be an expert in economics. To be brutally honest, it has been about as valuable in real-life application as a wart on a hog’s snout, but I digress.

With that, these are the problems that I view as somewhat equal importance in our economy today.

Individual debt: I read recently that the average American with a credit card/s now carries a plus 4,000 dollar debt. As a nation, that's 400,000,000,000. 4 hundred billion in credit card debt. Does this scare anyone besides me. Much of our economy is built on debt. These are not any sort of official numbers, merely and uneducated guess. The numbers are probably closer to a trillion dollars in individual debt.

The national debt: Regardless of the arguments for or against tax relief, the national debt is a problem for our long-term economy.

NAFTA and other such agreements: These agreements might have seemed like a great idea to begin with (With NAFTA, there'll be little need for Mexicans to come here for work, well, that worked like a tick in mashed potatoes). These agreements have shifted our nation from an industrial, manufacturing nation to a society of techies. In the event of global crisis, who will have the upper hand, those with technical skills, or those with manufacturing skills? That is another frightening scenario. God forbid we have a flu pandemic. A pandemic would likely crash the global economy. Those who would survive post pandemic would be the nations who were well tooled for manufacturing. There won't be a great need for technology if that happens.

The growing disparity in wealth: There always has been, and always will be the haves and the have-nots. But, every society in the history of mankind where the haves were ultra-elite and the have-nots became ultra-poor, the society collapsed upon itself. The frightening thing is; they remain collapsed. Democracy and free trade is the only cure for this ill. Historical economies that collapsed under this scenario took centuries to recover.

The illegal immigration problem is a serious one, but in my opinion, strictly in regards to economics, it is not as serious as the other problems I've mentioned.

As Americans we should pray daily that God would spare us from a global flu pandemic. Of all the problems on the horizon, immigration, the nut in Iran, gas prices, debt; I view this as the greatest threat to the American dream.

 

[GAVol]

Individual debt: I read recently that the average American with a credit card/s now carries a plus 4,000 dollar debt. As a nation, that's 400,000,000,000. 4 hundred billion in credit card debt. Does this scare anyone besides me. Much of our economy is built on debt. These are not any sort of official numbers, merely and uneducated guess. The numbers are probably closer to a trillion dollars in individual debt.

In my mind, bad spending habits, predatory credit card interest rates and interest only mortgages are far more dangerous to the average American's wallet than Exxon every thought about being. :twocents:

 

[OldVol]

I'm not sure a mass deportation would have the positive effects many think. First, longtime illegals are integrated into many communities and make up significant portions of the workforce and sales tax base. Second, the expected increase in wages for individuals performing manual labor would not be near as large as the increase in cost. Once workers' compensation insurance, taxes, and other attendant expenses are factored in, you can be sure that business will pass massive cost increases along to the consumer. Finally, I will give an observation I have made from growing up in East Tennessee. The county I grew up in is home to one of the largest roofing companies in the South, as well as a number of relatively large tobacco farms. I know many of the owners and operators of these enterprises. They are solid, patriotic individuals. They simply cannot find a sufficient number of workers to do manual labor for a reasonable wage. The welfare state has created a disproportionate sense of entitlement among the populace. People think they're entitiled to a new car, a big house, a satellite dish, and a swimming pool simply for showing up for work. I agree with OldVol that the lack of a college education should not relegate someone to a life of poverty. However, the flip side of that is that those who aren't blessed with the ability and/or opportunity to pursue higher education have to be realistic. They aren't going to enjoy the same lifestyle as their more educated contemporaries. Every operator I referenced above pays their workers, legal and illegal, fair market wages. One can make a living. They won't get rich, but there will be food on the table. Too many Americans think that they are entitled to more.

Rounding up 10 million illegal aliens at once is a logistics nightmare and purely undoable.

However, there are methods for deporting these criminals in a measured, reasonable manner.

While there are millions of illegals working in essential jobs, there are millions from all across the globe who are clamoring to come here to do the same jobs.

Outside of Mexico and South America, very few immigrants come here illegally. Legal immigrants could be gradually incorporated at a pace that would drive up wages to a fair level and the measured exchange of legal for illegal would enable us to get control of the population, begin to tax these people just like the rest of us are being taxed, and would force them to put something into our society instead of taking from it and sending it back to their native lands.

It is monumentally unfair that American workers pay in taxes what illegal workers are able to send back to their lands since they're not on the tax grid.

When we look at the safety net for most senior citizens, these illegals are not paying one cent into it and their employers are getting away without matching their portion as well.

It’s despicable.

 

[OldVol]

In my mind, bad spending habits, predatory credit card interest rates and interest only mortgages are far more dangerous to the average American's wallet than Exxon every thought about being. :twocents:

I had a friend who began saving all of the credit card offers he got in a year's time. It was unbelievable the amount he got.

Now, he opens the envelope, tears up the contents and returns it in the postage paid envelope.


Sometimes I get credit cards that say: $100,000.00, pre-approved.

Is that not the pinnacle of insanity?

 

[GAVol]

Sometimes I get credit cards that say: $100,000.00, pre-approved.

Is that not the pinnacle of insanity?

...and no doubt at a low introductory rate followed by a "slight" up tick to a 20% APR. :wacko:

The scary thing is that they wouldn't send those things out if people didn't respond. :ill_h4h:

 

[OldVol]

My understanding of NAFTA:

Proponents: They declared it would open up free markets in Mexico and South America, raising wages in those countries, thus opening up new markets for American enterprise and reduce to a trickle the influx of illegal immigration in America. That's the cliffs notes version.

Opponents: It will destroy the manufacturing motivation in America, sending companies South at the expense of the American working man, driving wages down here and having little to nothing to do with discouraging illegal immigration.

Well, in my opinion the opponents were more correct than the proponents.

It has done nothing to drive down illegals, it has driven down American low-end wages and it has not opened up markets in Mexico because, as I've said before, the Mexico and South American governments are run by crooks, cheats and criminals who are not about to share the wealth with the poverty stricken citizens of their respective countries.

 

[OldVol]

...and no doubt at a low introductory rate followed by a "slight" up tick to a 20% APR. :wacko:

The scary thing is that they wouldn't send those things out if people didn't respond. :ill_h4h:

I have counseled many young couples who were shipwrecked because of debt.

I believe it to be the 2nd leading cause of divorce behind adultery.

 

[jakez4ut]

In my mind, bad spending habits, predatory credit card interest rates and interest only mortgages are far more dangerous to the average American's wallet than Exxon every thought about being. :twocents:

yep. as one of those 30 something american families now....i can testify to all of that....we've been able to get our credit card debt under control (thankfully!!&#33, but unfortunately, we do have one of thoes 80/20 interest only mortgages....sounds great up front, and it is, if you aren't going to be in the house for long, and it appreciates to a point where you can make some money, but as time goes on, the longer your in it, the more beneficial it will be come to get in to a fixed rate morgage.....


the problem as i see it is the people that need to know this stuff don't know it and have to learn the hardway. Since i've been out of college for about a decade now, one of the things that i think should be incorporated in to one's education, either in HS or in College, is some sort of course on living expenses....a step back from just finance, maybe home finance......people need to know the pit falls that exist out there....home financing, auto financing, credit card debt management etc....not that i'm totally illiterate to the subject, but i know a lot more now than i did when i got started, basically because i had to learn some pretty tough lessons the hard way....

the old "well i won't do that again" lesson.

 

[UTGRADnNC]

"Now, he opens the envelope, tears up the contents and returns it in the postage paid envelope."

I'm sorry but I simply cannot stand the people who do this...You care that much about it, to take time out of your day, (instead of tearing it into and throwing it in the garbage) to actually mail it back in the pre-paid envelope???

Those people are just insane.

 

[CrystalEHS07]

A friend of mine sent me this joke in an email and I thought posting it on this topic would be rather appropriate.

I do hope it doesn't offend anyone. If it does, my sincerest apologies.


The Evolution of Simple Math 1950-2005

Last week I purchased a burger at Burger King for $1.58. The
counter girl took my $2 and I was digging for my change when I pulled 8 cents
from my pocket and gave it to her. She stood there, holding the nickel and
3 pennies, while looking at the screen on her register

I sensed her discomfort and tried to tell her to just give me two quarters, but
she hailed the manager for help. While he tried to explain the transaction to
her, she stood there and cried.

Why do I tell you this?
Because of the evolution in teaching math since the 1950s:

1. Teaching Math In 1950
A logger sells a truckload of lumber for $100.
His cost of production is 4/5 of the price. What is his profit?


2. Teaching Math In 1960
A logger sells a truckload of lumber for $100.
His cost of production is 4/5 of the price, or $80.
What is his profit?

3. Teaching Math In 1970
A logger sells a truckload of lumber for $100. His cost of
production is $80. Did he make a profit?

4. Teaching Math In 1980
A logger sells a truckload of lumber for $100. His cost of
production is $80 and his profit is $20.
Your assignment: underline the number 20.

5. Teaching Math In 1990
A logger cuts down a beautiful forest because he is selfish and
inconsiderate and cares nothing for the habitat of animals or the
preservation of our woodlands. He does this so he can make a profit
of $20.

What do you think of this way of making a living? Topic for class
participation after answering the question: How did the birds and
squirrels feel as the logger cut down their homes? (There are no wrong
answers.)

6. Teaching Math In 2005
Un hachero vende una carretada de maderapara $100. El costo de la
producciones es $80.




~*Crystal*~

 

[OldVol]

"Now, he opens the envelope, tears up the contents and returns it in the postage paid envelope."

I'm sorry but I simply cannot stand the people who do this...You care that much about it, to take time out of your day, (instead of tearing it into and throwing it in the garbage) to actually mail it back in the pre-paid envelope???

Those people are just insane.

He hates the credit card companies and the way they prey, legally, on the young and the unfortunate.

It's his way of protesting their predatory tactics.

I'm all for protest. It's the American way.

After all, he didn't ask them to fill his box with their junk mail.

 

[GAVol]

"Now, he opens the envelope, tears up the contents and returns it in the postage paid envelope."

I'm sorry but I simply cannot stand the people who do this...You care that much about it, to take time out of your day, (instead of tearing it into and throwing it in the garbage) to actually mail it back in the pre-paid envelope???

Those people are just insane.

If I open my mail near the mailbox and see a postage paid envelope, I've been known to do the same thing. :lol:

 

[OldVol]

A friend of mine sent me this joke in an email and I thought posting it on this topic would be rather appropriate.

I do hope it doesn't offend anyone. If it does, my sincerest apologies.
The Evolution of Simple Math 1950-2005

Last week I purchased a burger at Burger King for $1.58. The
counter girl took my $2 and I was digging for my change when I pulled 8 cents
from my pocket and gave it to her. She stood there, holding the nickel and
3 pennies, while looking at the screen on her register

I sensed her discomfort and tried to tell her to just give me two quarters, but
she hailed the manager for help. While he tried to explain the transaction to
her, she stood there and cried.

Why do I tell you this?
Because of the evolution in teaching math since the 1950s:

1. Teaching Math In 1950
A logger sells a truckload of lumber for $100.
His cost of production is 4/5 of the price. What is his profit?
2. Teaching Math In 1960
A logger sells a truckload of lumber for $100.
His cost of production is 4/5 of the price, or $80.
What is his profit?

3. Teaching Math In 1970
A logger sells a truckload of lumber for $100. His cost of
production is $80. Did he make a profit?

4. Teaching Math In 1980
A logger sells a truckload of lumber for $100. His cost of
production is $80 and his profit is $20.
Your assignment: underline the number 20.

5. Teaching Math In 1990
A logger cuts down a beautiful forest because he is selfish and
inconsiderate and cares nothing for the habitat of animals or the
preservation of our woodlands. He does this so he can make a profit
of $20.

What do you think of this way of making a living? Topic for class
participation after answering the question: How did the birds and
squirrels feel as the logger cut down their homes? (There are no wrong
answers.)

6. Teaching Math In 2005
Un hachero vende una carretada de maderapara $100. El costo de la
producciones es $80.
~*Crystal*~

Vive le Mexico.

I must admit, I laughed out loud at this one.

The part about the cashier would be funny if it weren't so true.

I can't tell you the times I've handed a clerk a hundred dollar bill and they had to call for help to make the change.

Sad.

 

[GAVol]

It's funny watching cashiers scurry on those rare occasions when I actually have a $100 bill. It's like you're handing them uranium.

 

[UTGRADnNC]

"After all, he didn't ask them to fill his box with their junk mail."

No, he sure didn't....but why not rip it up and throw in the the trash like a person who has bits of sanity left? I just don't understand folks taking personal time out, but that's just me I suppose.

Reckon I don't support the right to Protest afterall...

 

[OldVol]

"After all, he didn't ask them to fill his box with their junk mail."

No, he sure didn't....but why not rip it up and throw in the the trash like a person who has bits of sanity left? I just don't understand folks taking personal time out, but that's just me I suppose.

Reckon I don't support the right to Protest afterall...

Sure you support protest. You just disagree with this tactic. I think it's a little over the top to call him insane. In fact, I've done it a few times myself. I’m more inline with your line of thought, I guess it’s because I’m too lazy to take the effort to send them all back.

When you watch young couples destroy themselves with easy plastic, it does have an effect on you.

I don't put all of the blame on the credit card companies, young people have to take responsibility for their actions, but they are pretty lecherous. They have sent to all of my sons the moment they turned 18. Two of them were still in high school and receiving offers for easy credit. When people file bankruptcy due to credit card debt, and the credit card companies are the lone loser, I don't feel a bit sorry for them, as much as I detest bankruptcy.

When you consider all the damage this does to our nation’s youth, I think sending them their garbage back is a reasonable means of protest.

 

[therealUT]

He hates the credit card companies and the way they prey, legally, on the young and the unfortunate.

It's his way of protesting their predatory tactics.

I'm all for protest. It's the American way.

After all, he didn't ask them to fill his box with their junk mail.

They prey on the young and stupid. If I pay 39 cents, I can send you whatever I want, as long as it will not cause direct harm.

 

[jdsa]

They prey on the young and stupid. If I pay 39 cents, I can send you whatever I want, as long as it will not cause direct harm.

Running what amounts to a scam may not cause direct harm physically, but to those not smart enough to know better it causes great direct harm.

Moreover it's wasteful of paper and other useful resources. If we can have laws against telemarketing, I don't see why we can't get rid of this kind of junk mail as well.

 

[UTGRADnNC]

Sorry OldVol....I agree with pretty much everything you're saying, it's just a tough spot for me. Reason why is, that I had something come back in the mail about a month ago at work.

A**shole cut clippings out of a WalMart flyer, put them in the prepaid envelope and sent it back....Really set my temper ablaze.

Didn't mean to call your buddy insane...Sometimes the credit card companies do deserve a swift kick, but liek I said, it's a hot issue with me.

 

[GAVol]

A**shole cut clippings out of a WalMart flyer, put them in the prepaid envelope and sent it back....Really set my temper ablaze.

:birgits_giggle: I haven't thought of doing THAT.

What kind of business are you in?