HBO's "Game of Thrones"

[Power T-Rev]

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oh brother

 

[butchna]

Wrong again. I'm not arguing legalities, I'm talking about honor and duty. I'm arguing that Snow violated the spirit of his oath. People saying "well technically he died" are arguing legalities.

He doesn’t think he violated his oath...so he good. Battle of the Bastards was his trial...he won.

 

[Ulysees E. McGill]

GOT has never been about what people deserve. Jon's whole code was about duty and honor and he shirked his duty at the wall and his duty to be king, so not sure what he deserves.

SMH..the way you think is completely alien to me.

 

[n_huffhines]

He doesn’t think he violated his oath...so he good.

Where are you getting that from?

Battle of the Bastards was his trial...he won.

Still talking about legality, I see. Jon is about honor, not what he can get away with.

 

[n_huffhines]

 

[butchna]

Where are you getting that from?



Still talking about legality, I see. Jon is about honor, not what he can get away with.

After he left the Nightwatch. He was bitter about doing everything with honor...and still getting killed. There’s no refined legal system in this fictional system...so I’m not. It all boils down to looking at his body of work and determining if he has honor. Or basing your no on an oath to a dead institution. Catholic priests can renounce their priesthood, so he’s not bound to a family free existence sitting on the ruins of a wall. My take and most will agree with me.

 

[n_huffhines]

After he left the Nightwatch. He was bitter about doing everything with honor...and still getting killed. There’s no refined legal system in this fictional system...so I’m not. It all boils down to looking at his body of work and determining if he has honor. Or basing your no on an oath to a dead institution. Catholic priests can renounce their priesthood, so he’s not bound to a family free existence sitting on the ruins of a wall. My take and most will agree with me.

Might as well finish with "and I'm insecure"

 

[butchna]

Might as well finish with "and I'm insecure"

Speak for yourself...you’re good at it.

 

[tvolsfan]

View attachment 206546

 

[n_huffhines]

Did you just make that? If so, can we be best friends?

 

[tvolsfan]

Did you just make that? If so, can we be best friends?

Haha unfortunately that is not my creation. I saw that somewhere else. It truly is perfect.

 

[Ulysees E. McGill]

Jon kills Danny
Grey Worm and Jon square off
Half the army recognizes Jon as the true heir.
The lords come to kings Landing.
They name Jon king.
Jon says F that. I’m out.
Ty makes his speech.
Bran is king.
Jon heads north.

At least that would explain all the letters that got sent out by

That is the way I wish it had went..Jon and GW needed to do trial by combat in the ultimate throwdown.

 

[Ulysees E. McGill]

It would have taken better storytelling, but I would have

1) Had Jaime's and Cersei's deaths make more sense. Jaime should have killed her and been killed in the process.

2) Had Dany kill Jon in the same fashion as Ned.

3) Had Tyrion kill Dany as Jaime killed the Mad King.

4) Had a battle between the North, led by Arya and Gendry, and Dany's army.

5) Had Arya kill Grey Worm.

6) Had Gendry become king with Davos as his hand.

7) Kept Arya's and Sansa's fates the same. Sam's, Brienne's, and Pod's as well.

8) Had Bran go back north with Tormund and Ghost. (Probably would have had Nymeria and her pack join the journey.)

9) Probably would have left Tyrion's fate a bit uncertain. Have him return more to his "I drink and I know things" way.

10) Not sure what exactly, but I'd have done something completely different from what they did with Bronn.


But honestly, I still say the biggest problem was the rush to the end and abandoning the storytelling GoT was known for.

I pretty much hate all that. I would have liked Orangeslice's ending. I don't think I would have been so upset with the Danyikin TargVader turn either if it had been done better, and started much earlier, but they wanted to shock instead of tell a good story.

 

[Ulysees E. McGill]

There’s no night to watch with the WW gone...therefore no Nightwatch. Oath was to the old monarchy...so everything’s a do over. The North isn’t going to enforce an edict from a king who’s not their own and Sansa ain’t going to send any code enforcers. It was a platitude to Gray Worm and the Unsullied, so they’d sail their nutless carcasses out of Westeros. If Jon Snow’s satisfied with his fate...no need to bring a contrived dead code into it.

Amen..

 

[Ulysees E. McGill]

I'm not talking about his leaving the wall in the last episode.

No...Jon was basically forced to be an undercover cop by the Halfhand. He was told that was his duty, to sell it, and he did it, and it cost him dearly.

 

[Ulysees E. McGill]

After he left the Nightwatch. He was bitter about doing everything with honor...and still getting killed. There’s no refined legal system in this fictional system...so I’m not. It all boils down to looking at his body of work and determining if he has honor. Or basing your no on an oath to a dead institution. Catholic priests can renounce their priesthood, so he’s not bound to a family free existence sitting on the ruins of a wall. My take and most will agree with me.

100% agree with you.

 

[Ulysees E. McGill]

After he left the Nightwatch. He was bitter about doing everything with honor...and still getting killed. There’s no refined legal system in this fictional system...so I’m not. It all boils down to looking at his body of work and determining if he has honor. Or basing your no on an oath to a dead institution. Catholic priests can renounce their priesthood, so he’s not bound to a family free existence sitting on the ruins of a wall. My take and most will agree with me.

Jon saved the world...from annihilation by both Fire and Ice..and it all cost him more than anybody. He had an impossibly tough destiny and didn't shirk anything.

 

[butchna]

No...Jon was basically forced to be an undercover cop by the Halfhand. He was told that was his duty, to sell it, and he did it, and it cost him dearly.

Sold a false bill of goods from the beginning. He was a bastard (cept he wasn’t), no hope of ever serving as the family’s head. On his way up to Castle Black with Uncle Ben-Jen, he started glimpsing some of the hypocrisy of his “honorable” fate. They’re picking up rapists and there’s politics and personal grudges galore. Still he serves. Moormont doesn’t die in vain as he accomplishes the mission of gaining the Wildlings trust. He fell in love with Ygritte...stayed true to the Watch. All this is going on and he’s notified of the losses in his family and Theon’s betrayal at Winterfell...stayed on post (honor). Instead of indulging the toxic culture of back and forth with the Wildlings, he drew them into the fight against the undead...one no others were aware of, and then gets murdered in a mutiny borne of fear and hate. When he’s brought back from death, he plunges head on into the fight against evil with Ramsey Bolton, wins then helps bring Dany into the fight with the undead. After that, you can argue what was honor and what was love, but once again he chose the right path and killed another that he loved for the greater good. His soul is free far as I can see.

 

[Ulysees E. McGill]

Sold a false bill of goods from the beginning. He was a bastard (cept he wasn’t), no hope of ever serving as the family’s head. On his way up to Castle Black with Uncle Ben-Jen, he started glimpsing some of the hypocrisy of his “honorable” fate. They’re picking up rapists and there’s politics and personal grudges galore. Still he serves. Moormont doesn’t die in vain as he accomplishes the mission of gaining the Wildlings trust. He fell in love with Ygritte...stayed true to the Watch. All this is going on and he’s notified of the losses in his family and Theon’s betrayal at Winterfell...stayed on post (honor). Instead of indulging the toxic culture of back and forth with the Wildlings, he drew them into the fight against the undead...one no others were aware of, and then gets murdered in a mutiny borne of fear and hate. When he’s brought back from death, he plunges head on into the fight against evil with Ramsey Bolton, wins then helps bring Dany into the fight with the undead. After that, you can argue what was honor and what was love, but once again he chose the right path and killed another that he loved for the greater good. His soul is free far as I can see.

Jon Snow is a great character, I wish they had let him kill off GW in a trial by combat, and had him walk away from it all of his own volition..The Targaryen story in Westeros from Aegon the Conqueror to Aegon the Abdicator. That would have been a soooo much better ending.

 

[VolNExile]

I think it’s interesting how Jon compares with Ned.

Ned has a very rigid (= clear and uncomplicated, with no grey areas) idea of honor and right and wrong, and it directly causes his death.

It’s more nuanced for Jon. He still abides by the code of honor, but he sees how its rigidity doesn’t always result in the best outcome, plus he sees the widespread hypocrisy in how often it’s ignored (on the Watch and elsewhere.)

As the entire series (novels and TV) are partially addressing medieval European history and culture, with the move from dictated behavior to an internal interpretation of right and wrong, this is very understandable.

Life is messy, even when you think you know the right path.

 

[butchna]

Jon Snow is a great character, I wish they had let him kill off GW in a trial by combat, and had him walk away from it all of his own volition..The Targaryen story in Westeros from Aegon the Conqueror to Aegon the Abdicator. That would have been a soooo much better ending.

No argument...that would have been great. We got to see very little of GW’s actual fighting skill. The most I remember was when he and Barristan Selma fought off the Sons of the Harpy.

 

[Weezer]

I pretty much hate all that. I would have liked Orangeslice's ending. I don't think I would have been so upset with the Danyikin TargVader turn either if it had been done better, and started much earlier, but they wanted to shock instead of tell a good story.

Of course you do, because in the end, you wanted a clean, happy ending for Jon. Jon was a great character, but it just wasn't the GoT way to give him a truly happy ending. Killing him as Ned was killed would have made him a martyr. IMO, it would only have enhanced everything he sacrificed to serve the people.

And I'll never agree that Bran should be king. It makes no sense. For thousands of years the 3ER isolates himself from humanity, and now one decides, "okay, I'll be king"? It would have made far more sense, IMO, for Bran to have returned to beyond the wall.

GRRM must fancy himself as "Bran" the storyteller. I think making Bran king is his way of fluffing his ego.

 

[n_huffhines]

Jon was an OK character. He was really likable, and a good hero, but pretty boring and dumb.

 

[Ulysees E. McGill]

Jon was an OK character. He was really likable, and a good hero, but pretty boring and dumb.

Of course you think that

 

[Ulysees E. McGill]

Of course you do, because in the end, you wanted a clean, happy ending for Jon. Jon was a great character, but it just wasn't the GoT way to give him a truly happy ending. Killing him as Ned was killed would have made him a martyr. IMO, it would only have enhanced everything he sacrificed to serve the people.

And I'll never agree that Bran should be king. It makes no sense. For thousands of years the 3ER isolates himself from humanity, and now one decides, "okay, I'll be king"? It would have made far more sense, IMO, for Bran to have returned to beyond the wall.

GRRM must fancy himself as "Bran" the storyteller. I think making Bran king is his way of fluffing his ego.

Clean? Happy? Was there not enough tragedy for you? Deer lord..