Heath Shuler vs. Peyton Manning

#51
#51
wellway16 said:
Look at teams that have won the last 10 or so national titles. Seven of them (exceptions being Weinke, Leinart, and Dorsey) were at least threats to run in short yardage and convert third downs.
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you forgot Carson Palmer and Josh Heupel and you absolutely mistakenly added Chris Leak.

I think you'll find a much better correlation between front line domination, on both sides of the ball, to championships than you will QB style.
 
#53
#53
BigPapaVol said:
you forgot Carson Palmer and Josh Heupel and you absolutely mistakenly added Chris Leak.

I think you'll find a much better correlation between front line domination, on both sides of the ball, to championships than you will QB style.
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Carson Palmer never won an NC. Both of USC's recent titles came under Leinart. I believe Palmer's senior season was the year OSU stole the NC from Miami and USC beat Brad Banks-led Iowa.
 
#54
#54
Palmer never won a title....I'm 100% sure on that. And I know for a 100% fact that Chris Leak was throwing TD passes against tOSU. Heupel was an omission, to an extent, but OU ran a variation of the spread.
 
#55
#55
wellway16 said:
Palmer never won a title....I'm 100% sure on that. And I know for a 100% fact that Chris Leak was throwing TD passes against tOSU. Heupel was an omission, to an extent, but OU ran a variation of the spread.
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Chrissy was really good at sliding a yard short of the 1st down when challenged.
 
#56
#56
vader said:
It is pretty amazing that one of my buddies and I didn't get jumped after that game. We were quite...um, jubilant.
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few thing are more fun than celebrating a road win in Athens. every Vol fan should do it.

kptvol said:
Carson Palmer never won an NC. Both of USC's recent titles came under Leinart. I believe Palmer's senior season was the year OSU stole the NC from Miami and USC destroyed and left for dead the Brad Banks-led Iowa team.
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fyp
 
#57
#57
truefan said:
Another fallacy. One of the knocks against his was his arm strength. Couldn't throw the deep out in the NFL
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That isn't true from what I was told by a very close and reliable source. He could make all of the throws. He struggled with the mental part of the game and especially the speed you have to make reads.

The ONLY reason other teams kept taking chances on him is that he had exceptional arm strength and athleticism. If he hadn't had those and struggled with the other parts... no one would have picked him up after he left DC.
 
#58
#58
truefan said:
Not exactly unbiased???? Sorry pard, but you are totally biased.
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Ummm, nope.

Paralled Kerry Collins????? Yeah, you're too close to the family. You're letting your feelings get in the way of the facts.
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Yes. Collins. He flopped early in his career and was in the league for about 6 seasons before figuring it out.

Sorry, but Heath was NEVER going to be an effective QB in the NFL, regardless of whether or not he had a heel injury.
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Sorry but unless you have some clarvoyant gift from God Himself you aren't qualified to say what would or would not have happened had he stayed healthy. It is ignorant to make definitive statements like that out of pure old ignorance.
 
#59
#59
truefan said:
Shuler might be a better athlete....MIGHT
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Now THAT is a biased statement.

There is no "MIGHT" about it. Shuler was a good enough catcher to have been drafted had he not signed with UT. Had he not been a QB, he was fast enough, strong enough, quick enough, and a good enough tackler to have played DB in the SEC.

I'm pretty sure he competed at state for 110 hurdles and the high jump. I also think he might have had the best vertical on UT's team when he played there.

Manning isn't a bad athlete and is an extraordinary athlete... but Shuler was the better athlete and there are absolutely no "mights" about it.
 
#60
#60
sjt18 said:
Ummm, nope.

Yes. Collins. He flopped early in his career and was in the league for about 6 seasons before figuring it out.

Sorry but unless you have some clarvoyant gift from God Himself you aren't qualified to say what would or would not have happened had he stayed healthy. It is ignorant to make definitive statements like that out of pure old ignorance.
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He flopped everywhere he played. He was terrible. Sorry.I have heard from "reliable" sources his arm strength was overrated in college. If you are saying he didn't "make" it because of his injuries then you are completely uninformed and must not know too much about the game. He might have retired DUE to his injuries, but according to most scouts and a couple of assistants I know personally, he wasn't going to make it.

The ignorance is only from those making predictions that WERE NEVER going to come true. He didn't have it. Face it.

And to make an analogy to Kerry Collins is TOTAL IGNORANCE. think about for a minute then get back to me.

You lose this one. And pretty badly I might add
 
#61
#61
sjt18 said:
Now THAT is a biased statement.

There is no "MIGHT" about it. Shuler was a good enough catcher to have been drafted had he not signed with UT. Had he not been a QB, he was fast enough, strong enough, quick enough, and a good enough tackler to have played DB in the SEC.

I'm pretty sure he competed at state for 110 hurdles and the high jump. I also think he might have had the best vertical on UT's team when he played there.

Manning isn't a bad athlete and is an extraordinary athlete... but Shuler was the better athlete and there are absolutely no "mights" about it.
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In your opinion. I have no doubts HE MIGHT have been a better athlete, but to put absolutes on it is absurd.
 
#62
#62
sjt18 said:
That isn't true from what I was told by a very close and reliable source. He could make all of the throws. He struggled with the mental part of the game and especially the speed you have to make reads.

The ONLY reason other teams kept taking chances on him is that he had exceptional arm strength and athleticism. If he hadn't had those and struggled with the other parts... no one would have picked him up after he left DC.
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Wrong again. The fact he was the third pick in the draft was enough for someone else to take a chance.

Ever heard what Mike Ditka said about him?

Did you ever see Shuler on the Sunday morning show in WBIR? When I heard him on that show, I knew all the rumors about him being a dumbazz were true
 
#64
#64
truefan said:
In your opinion. I have no doubts HE MIGHT have been a better athlete, but to put absolutes on it is absurd.
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Well frankly... no. I am NOT a great athlete. Never have been. I was a good player however because I developed some skills that more talented athletes didn't work as hard at.

The measures of athleticism are "raw", innate things. Shuler was faster, stronger, quicker, could jump higher, could throw further, etc, etc, etc.

Manning had 4 years as a starter and accomplished more. On that basis you can call him the better player... you still can't compare their athleticism... because there is no comparison and it really isn't a matter of opinion.
 
#65
#65
truefan said:
Wrong again. The fact he was the third pick in the draft was enough for someone else to take a chance.
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Nope. Not after that debacle... and that certainly doesn't explain why the Raiders gave him another shot.

Oh, and what you are basically saying is that Ditka hung his hat on bringing a QB to NO with him that couldn't throw... that makes tremendous sense.

Ever heard what Mike Ditka said about him?
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Read and heard several things Ditka said about him both good and bad... None of them had anything to do with having a weak arm or lacking toughness or athleticism.

Also, none of them had one iota to do with what kind of college QB he was or whether he was a better athlete than Manning either.

Did you ever see Shuler on the Sunday morning show in WBIR? When I heard him on that show, I knew all the rumors about him being a dumbazz were true
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No. I have talked to him in person on numerous occasions and knew him from the time he was a toddler... Want to compare notes.

Would love to see you call him that to his face even now btw.

He wasn't a good pro. I never said he was. I said he had enough natural talent to have made it if he could have gotten the mental part down. Virtually anyone who knows anything about his situation would agree with that. You are the first and ONLY person I have ever seen claim that he didn't have above avg arm strength even for the NFL.
 
#67
#67
truefan said:
He flopped everywhere he played. He was terrible. Sorry.I have heard from "reliable" sources his arm strength was overrated in college.
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Then your reliable source is in disagreement with every other coach (notably Cutcliffe in the context of this thread) whether college or pro plus all of the draft analysts. So if your "source" is better informed than many, many, many people who make their living evaluating whether guys can throw a football or not... then feel free.

FTR, you don't even need all those other people. All you had to do is watch him throw the ball while at UT. Arm strength was a very, very obvious asset.

If you are saying he didn't "make" it because of his injuries then you are completely uninformed and must not know too much about the game.
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He didn't make it in DC because he could never learn the mental part or make the reads fast enough. Those are things Manning excels at in the NFL.

He quit while he still had the youth to keep trying to learn to be a good QB because his heel was basically shattered.

He might have retired DUE to his injuries, but according to most scouts and a couple of assistants I know personally, he wasn't going to make it.
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I never said that he "would" make it though did I? I said that he had the athletic ability to make it had he been able to learn the mental part of it.

The ignorance is only from those making predictions that WERE NEVER going to come true. He didn't have it. Face it.
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I didn't make a prediction. I laid out a possibility. It was you that made a definitive declaration about what would or would not happen. The only things I've said definitively are those supported by cold, hard, demonstrated FACT.

And to make an analogy to Kerry Collins is TOTAL IGNORANCE. think about for a minute then get back to me.

You lose this one. And pretty badly I might add
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Nope. Collins stank it up and was shuffled from here to yonder. He was ahead of Heath on the mental part of the game but still made horrible decisions.

Over time he resolved issues both on and off the field and became a good QB.
 
#68
#68
sjt18 said:
BTW, his NFL career paralleled Kerry Collins up to the point where he destroyed his heel trying to play while injured for the Saints. He had the physical skills but even at UT Heath had to work much harder at the mental part. Had he found the right situation he may well have had a decent ending to his career had the injury not cut it short. He should have come back for his SR year. He could have used the development.

.
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BTW, here's what I said... compare that to your claim that I had in anyway predicted he WOULD have become a good pro.

I didn't say "would". I didn't say "great career". I didn't even say "good career". I said "may" and "decent".
 
#69
#69
sjt18 said:
Nope. Not after that debacle... and that certainly doesn't explain why the Raiders gave him another shot.

Oh, and what you are basically saying is that Ditka hung his hat on bringing a QB to NO with him that couldn't throw... that makes tremendous sense.

Read and heard several things Ditka said about him both good and bad... None of them had anything to do with having a weak arm or lacking toughness or athleticism.

Also, none of them had one iota to do with what kind of college QB he was or whether he was a better athlete than Manning either.

No. I have talked to him in person on numerous occasions and knew him from the time he was a toddler... Want to compare notes.

Would love to see you call him that to his face even now btw.
He wasn't a good pro. I never said he was. I said he had enough natural talent to have made it if he could have gotten the mental part down. Virtually anyone who knows anything about his situation would agree with that. You are the first and ONLY person I have ever seen claim that he didn't have above avg arm strength even for the NFL.
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Sorry to criticize your buddy.


Actually did a few years ago......during a conversaton about Rashad Baker and Mark Jones
 
#70
#70
truefan said:
Another fallacy. One of the knocks against his was his arm strength. Couldn't throw the deep out in the NFL
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Wrong... he throw a ball so hard that it exploded when it hit a player's helmet during practice. I'm not saying he had an arm like Tee or Robinson, but to say it was weak is totally wrong.
 
#71
#71
volsforever27 said:
Wrong... he throw a ball so hard that it exploded when it hit a player's helmet during practice. I'm not saying he had an arm like Tee or Robinson, but to say it was weak is totally wrong.
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Yes--he definitely had plenty of arm strength. He could make all the throws required of an NFL QB. It's not that he couldn't throw the deep out in the NFL--he just threw it late and didn't read the coverage, so it got picked.

Friendly competition - quarterbacks Trent Dilfer, Heath Shuler prepare for 1994 draft; includes related article | Sporting News, The | Find Articles at BNET
 
#74
#74
Would love to see you call him that to his face even now btw.
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id post his mobile but, we wont drag that issue out.

MySpace

that is two really hard athletes to compare because of their in college and after college events. Id still take Heath becasue of the dual threat that he was. Also the reason I'm hoping crompton is like him. Especially if he can beat down Georgia and Florida this year! But why we pick on two late greats from UT i'll never know. :crazy:
 
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