Here comes the NCAA

#278
#278
VFL-82-JP said:
Yep.

If we'd had, not even a championship program, but just a consistently Top 25 program, through those Dark Ages, we would be up around Penn State and Nebraska right now.
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We are 91-83 since Fulmer left the first time. That's 174 games. If we simply had been winning games at our program's historical average of .672, we would have been 116-58 instead. That would have put at 892 instead of 867 and still 24 games ahead of UGA.
 
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#279
#279
unfrozencvmanvol said:
We are 91-83 since Fulmer left the first time. That's 174 games. If we simply had been winning games at our program's historical average of .672, we would have been 116-58 instead. That would have put at 892 instead of 867 and still 24 games ahead of UGA.
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Yep, and if we had continued at the Fulmer pace of wins over those next 12-13 years (.745), we'd have gone 130-44, which would have put our all-time win total at 906.
 
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#280
#280
Frivolous said:
I agree with the part about Fulmer in the second article. UT owned up to all the Pruitt stuff, fired him and gave him zero buyout. They threw Fulmer a retirement party and gave him a million dollar going-away present. Next thing you know, the NCAA is alleging failure to monitor, which would have been Fulmer's job.
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there is no AD anywhere that can monitor 18-20 athletic programs at any school. ADs have far more important things to manage than monitoring. There is a compliance department whose entire function is to monitor, prevent and find violations. That is where things broke down. At one time they moved compliance under the university as the feeling was compliance being in the athletic department was like having the Fox guard the henhouse. I don't know if that is still where compliance sits.

Ultimately, lack of monitoring goes all the way up to the President's office. Certainly with the Chancellor and President, absolving the AD of any issue, whatever the NCAA has in that arena goes all the way to the top.
 
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#281
#281
Don't understand why the NCAA even bothers anymore to pretend that college football and basketball are amateur athletics. We all know that's a fraud and NIL killed any remaining pretense of it.
 
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#282
#282
VFL-82-JP said:
Yep, and if we had continued at the Fulmer pace of wins over those next 12-13 years (.745), we'd have gone 130-44, which would have put our all-time win total at 906.
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Yep. In fairness though, all of the programs ahead of us have had down times too and if you took those away they'd be in better shape too. We just need to continue the momentum we have and pass back or at least stay with UGA and hopefully put some distance between us and Southern Cal/LSU.
 
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#283
#283
lawgator1 said:
Don't understand why the NCAA even bothers anymore to pretend that college football and basketball are amateur athletics. We all know that's a fraud and NIL killed any remaining pretense of it.
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I think we are probably pretty fortunate this happened now instead of 15 years ago or earlier, because having your head coach caught red handed paying players is really probably worse than some of the historical harsh punishments that Alabama, SMU and others got where it was mostly boosters who were proved to have broken the rules and not the person the university hired to run the football program.
 
#284
#284
unfrozencvmanvol said:
Clearly the NCAA wants to impose more severe sanctions than what UT finds acceptable or they wouldn't be going to court. It would be over.
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I’m more curious of how far a part they were, and what is the maximum the NCAA is seeking to impose. If it’s a small scholarship reduction difference, it could be that UT sees little downside going to hearing because the scholarships are worth more than the attorney fees they would incur and there is little to no risk other than costs. I’m not confident that’s what’s happening, but it would be the best case scenario as to why they’re moving forward. The only other explanation would be that they were very far a part and/or UT saw the negotiated penalty offer as overly excessive. Hoping not the latter.
 
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#285
#285
200w.gif
 
#286
#286
unfrozencvmanvol said:
We are 91-83 since Fulmer left the first time. That's 174 games. If we simply had been winning games at our program's historical average of .672, we would have been 116-58 instead. That would have put at 892 instead of 867 and still 24 games ahead of UGA.
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SEC record since Fulmer left after 2008 is putrid compared to over all. 43-71. Been years before we get back even in the SEC.
 
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#287
#287
1 in 102 455 said:
I’m more curious of how far a part they were, and what is the maximum the NCAA is seeking to impose. If it’s a small scholarship reduction difference, it could be that UT sees little downside going to hearing because the scholarships are worth more than the attorney fees they would incur and there is little to no risk other than costs. I’m not confident that’s what’s happening, but it would be the best case scenario as to why they’re moving forward. The only other explanation would be that they were very far a part and/or UT saw the negotiated penalty offer as overly excessive. Hoping not the latter.
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There are 8 types of penalties* the NCAA has historically applied:
  • Probation
  • Public Reprimand or Censure
  • Recruiting Restrictions
  • Scholarship Reduction
  • Post-Season Ban
  • Show-Cause Order
  • Wins Vacated
  • Financial Penalty
The key question while trying to figure out why Tennessee and the NCAA haven't reached agreement is, which among those eight possibilities are important enough to the university that we would go to the mat to avoid them?

We can toss some out immediately: the University would not oppose show-cause orders against any of the prior coaches, in fact we might be encouraging them. I also don't think we'd fight (to this extent) a probationary period, nor a public reprimand (offset as it would be by the NCAA's prior comments about how well we handled this investigation). And as much as we've spent entirely on our own to get to the bottom of the Pruitt scandal, I doubt there's any financial penalty the NCAA would feel comfortable proposing that we'd fight so strongly.

We can also eliminate post-season bans, I think, given the NCAA's recent shift toward punishing the wrong-doers rather than the innocent players left behind.

That leaves just three possibilities: recruiting restrictions, scholarship reductions,, and wins vacated.

I think what we're going to see in the upcoming hearing is Tennessee fighting against any loss of scholarships and recruiting authorities beyond what we've already penalized ourselves, and against the worst outcome in wins vacated. I think Tennessee will argue that those types of punishments hurt only the innocent.

Just seems a logical analysis. But we'll see in a couple of weeks, to the extent they make the process public.

Go Vols!


* https://sthm.temple.edu/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/NCAA-Penalties.pdf
 
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#288
#288
I sure hope you are correct - but what’s scary, and what has me thinking we are gonna get floored is that the head of the committee- which I quoted above - is of the opinion that rules are being broken so frequently because there hasn’t been enough punishment meted out. And his committee metes out the penalties.
 
#289
#289
The problem here is the NCAA punishing players who had no participation and letting the ones who did participate off scot free. Those players who were named should have lost a year of eligibility even after transferring. Toto and the kids who went to OU were allowed to cheat and get by with it, while the new staff and players are going to pay the price.
 
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#291
#291
VFL-82-JP said:
There are 8 types of penalties* the NCAA has historically applied:
  • Probation
  • Public Reprimand or Censure
  • Recruiting Restrictions
  • Scholarship Reduction
  • Post-Season Ban
  • Show-Cause Order
  • Wins Vacated
  • Financial Penalty
The key question while trying to figure out why Tennessee and the NCAA haven't reached agreement is, which among those eight possibilities are important enough to the university that we would go to the mat to avoid them?

We can toss some out immediately: the University would not oppose show-cause orders against any of the prior coaches, in fact we might be encouraging them. I also don't think we'd fight (to this extent) a probationary period, nor a public reprimand (offset as it would be by the NCAA's prior comments about how well we handled this investigation). And as much as we've spent entirely on our own to get to the bottom of the Pruitt scandal, I doubt there's any financial penalty the NCAA would feel comfortable proposing that we'd fight so strongly.

We can also eliminate post-season bans, I think, given the NCAA's recent shift toward punishing the wrong-doers rather than the innocent players left behind.

That leaves just three possibilities: recruiting restrictions, scholarship reductions,, and wins vacated.

I think what we're going to see in the upcoming hearing is Tennessee fighting against any loss of scholarships and recruiting authorities beyond what we've already penalized ourselves, and against the worst outcome in wins vacated. I think Tennessee will argue that those types of punishments hurt only the innocent.

Just seems a logical analysis. But we'll see in a couple of weeks, to the extent they make the process public.

Go Vols!


* https://sthm.temple.edu/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/NCAA-Penalties.pdf
Click to expand...

I’d certainly agree with that. It makes me curious how far a part they were in negotiating. That part we may never know fully.
 
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#292
#292
VFL-82-JP said:
There are 8 types of penalties* the NCAA has historically applied:
  • Probation
  • Public Reprimand or Censure
  • Recruiting Restrictions
  • Scholarship Reduction
  • Post-Season Ban
  • Show-Cause Order
  • Wins Vacated
  • Financial Penalty
The key question while trying to figure out why Tennessee and the NCAA haven't reached agreement is, which among those eight possibilities are important enough to the university that we would go to the mat to avoid them?

We can toss some out immediately: the University would not oppose show-cause orders against any of the prior coaches, in fact we might be encouraging them. I also don't think we'd fight (to this extent) a probationary period, nor a public reprimand (offset as it would be by the NCAA's prior comments about how well we handled this investigation). And as much as we've spent entirely on our own to get to the bottom of the Pruitt scandal, I doubt there's any financial penalty the NCAA would feel comfortable proposing that we'd fight so strongly.

We can also eliminate post-season bans, I think, given the NCAA's recent shift toward punishing the wrong-doers rather than the innocent players left behind.

That leaves just three possibilities: recruiting restrictions, scholarship reductions,, and wins vacated.

I think what we're going to see in the upcoming hearing is Tennessee fighting against any loss of scholarships and recruiting authorities beyond what we've already penalized ourselves, and against the worst outcome in wins vacated. I think Tennessee will argue that those types of punishments hurt only the innocent.

Just seems a logical analysis. But we'll see in a couple of weeks, to the extent they make the process public.

Go Vols!


* https://sthm.temple.edu/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/NCAA-Penalties.pdf
Click to expand...
To me additional recruiting restrictions and/or scholarship reductions would be a very bad outcome. We need to be on the same level with the schools we're competing against for the playoffs at this point and not fighting with one hand tied behind our backs like we have been with this stuff hanging out there. Recruiting is the lifeblood of the program.
 
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#293
#293
VFL-82-JP said:
There are 8 types of penalties* the NCAA has historically applied:
  • Probation
  • Public Reprimand or Censure
  • Recruiting Restrictions
  • Scholarship Reduction
  • Post-Season Ban
  • Show-Cause Order
  • Wins Vacated
  • Financial Penalty
The key question while trying to figure out why Tennessee and the NCAA haven't reached agreement is, which among those eight possibilities are important enough to the university that we would go to the mat to avoid them?

We can toss some out immediately: the University would not oppose show-cause orders against any of the prior coaches, in fact we might be encouraging them. I also don't think we'd fight (to this extent) a probationary period, nor a public reprimand (offset as it would be by the NCAA's prior comments about how well we handled this investigation). And as much as we've spent entirely on our own to get to the bottom of the Pruitt scandal, I doubt there's any financial penalty the NCAA would feel comfortable proposing that we'd fight so strongly.

We can also eliminate post-season bans, I think, given the NCAA's recent shift toward punishing the wrong-doers rather than the innocent players left behind.

That leaves just three possibilities: recruiting restrictions, scholarship reductions,, and wins vacated.

I think what we're going to see in the upcoming hearing is Tennessee fighting against any loss of scholarships and recruiting authorities beyond what we've already penalized ourselves, and against the worst outcome in wins vacated. I think Tennessee will argue that those types of punishments hurt only the innocent.

Just seems a logical analysis. But we'll see in a couple of weeks, to the extent they make the process public.

Go Vols!


* https://sthm.temple.edu/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/NCAA-Penalties.pdf
Click to expand...

I would be all for paying the NCAA half of Pruitt's buyout money. We would still be ahead on the ledger.
 
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#294
#294
unfrozencvmanvol said:
I think we are probably pretty fortunate this happened now instead of 15 years ago or earlier, because having your head coach caught red handed paying players is really probably worse than some of the historical harsh punishments that Alabama, SMU and others got where it was mostly boosters who were proved to have broken the rules and not the person the university hired to run the football program.
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Hey now, Ole Slingblade McGump was too slick for that. He used his pregnant wife and babysitter. Clearly, he is a logistical genius.
 
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#295
#295
The NCAA hearing will be this Wednesday. Here is a good article from Yahoo via Knox News Sentinel. My hope is that the University's lawyers have enough evidence to show Pruitt and co. went to great lengths to hide wrong doing from the school. I believe that will be our best angle to approach the one level one violation we are facing.

Why Tennessee football will fight failure to monitor violation in NCAA hearing
 
#296
#296
VFL-82-JP said:
Yep, and if we had continued at the Fulmer pace of wins over those next 12-13 years (.745), we'd have gone 130-44, which would have put our all-time win total at 906.
Click to expand...

And had we never lost a game, we'd be 100%. Is this how this game works? Just wanted to jump in and play. :)
 
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#297
#297
VolsnRavens said:
And had we never lost a game, we'd be 100%. Is this how this game works? Just wanted to jump in and play. :)
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Well, hypothesizing works better when based on a demonstrably realistic possibility.

For instance, it is demonstrably realistic that we could've continued winning at the same rate we won the whole rest of our history. It is also realistic that we could have continued at the Fulmer win rate.

But since no program in history, in all of college football, has ever not lost a single game over a 12- or 13-year period, I would say that is not a realistic hypothetical.

But brother, you do whatever you wish. It's your dime.

Go Vols!
 
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#298
#298
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