Hey alleged Christians ....

#501
#501
OrangeEmpire said:
do u press charges or not

easy, by the way you respond......jump from slander equaling pacifism.....similar by making the giant leap that baptism not christ saves someone
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Romans 13
4 for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil.
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I think that this passage gives authority for the government to respond to and punish murderers, so yes, I would be justified in reporting and asking them to do something about the murders. I will say though, that I am not sure how far this goes, by which I am referring to capital punishment. The passage in Romans 13 has some problematic ideas to it. I have trouble understanding it all and fitting it all in. I don't claim to know it all. I do understand some of it though and what may be allowable for the government is not allowable for me. I truly struggle with this passage more than just about any other in the whole bible on any topic. I do know that this passage only grants government authority to 'brings wrath on the one who practices evil'. I can't see how that would apply to another country, especially since the govt of that other country is also a minister of God.


1 Peter 3
21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ
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Not exactly a big leap. Baptism does save us, through Jesus. Go to What Does Your Church Teach? and read the article Do I have to be baptized if you want a more comprehensive treatment of that subject. Also see the article Saved by...

Not sure where you get the slander thing.

Matthew 5
38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘AN EYE FOR AN EYE, AND A TOOTH FOR A TOOTH.’ 39 But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.
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While I am sure that there could be an idiom about slander that uses these same words, I think from the context that is not the intent. When it follows condemning 'an eye for an eye' and 'do not resist', it leads to a conclusion about violence, not slander.

Consider it without the idiom.

it was said an eye for an eye but I say do not resist an evil person but accept slander

Total non sequiter.

However, that is hardly the only passage I base my pacifism on. I have given several that can't be dismissed as referencing slander.

FTR, I am not a pacifist by temperament. I don't want to be one. I agree totally with the sentiments you express. I am not a pacifist by choice, but because of conscience.

BTW, this is a fun conversation. :)
 
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#502
#502
OrangeEmpire said:
Surprised u arent running away with this one
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Long day at the office.

RespectTradition said:
I don't think the two are mutually exclusive. Two men can love each other, but a homosexual relationship is evil. A boy and girl can love each other, but premarital sex is evil.
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I'll gladly accept hell then. I have no plans of getting married and that's not going to stop me from doing the dirty deed. How, exactly, is a homosexual relationship evil but two men being in love with each other fine?

What about pre-marital buttsecks?
 
#504
#504
VOLatile said:
Long day at the office.



I'll gladly accept hell then. I have no plans of getting married and that's not going to stop me from doing the dirty deed. How, exactly, is a homosexual relationship evil but two men being in love with each other fine?

What about pre-marital buttsecks?
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You can love someone without engaging in a forbidden sexual relationship.
 
#505
#505
Your view that baptism not faith in christ is a huge leap. Baptism is a covenant symbol.

Same with your pacifist passage, christ is referring to responding to slander.

Might want to read up on jewish culture.
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#507
#507
OrangeEmpire said:
Your view that baptism not faith in christ is a huge leap. Baptism is a covenant symbol.

Same with your pacifist passage, christ is referring to responding to slander.

Might want to read up on jewish culture.
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Did Peter misunderstand when he wrote 'baptism now saves'? Never seen anyone be able to explain that passage away.

God saves us by His grace. His grace is given to those who do the things that He commands. We will know what we should do, and be willing to do them, if we have faith in Him. He made His grace available to us because He loved us. All of these things work together to result in us being saved. God is allowed to attach conditions to salvation. He has done his part. Our part is to:

First, we must hear (or read) the Word. (Romans 10:17) If we have never heard the word, then how can we ever believe it or obey it?

Second, we must believe what we have heard. (John 3:16) If we don’t believe what we have heard and have faith, then nothing we ever do could possibly be sincere.

Third, we must confess that Jesus is the Son of God. (Matthew 10:32, Romans 10:9-10) If we aren’t willing to make this confession, then Jesus will not be our advocate with God.

Fourth, we must repent (turn away from) of our sins. (Luke 24:47, Acts 3:19) If we are not willing to turn away from our sinful ways and embrace the way of God, then we can’t receive forgiveness.

Fifth, we must be baptized. (Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16, Romans 6:4, 1 Peter 3:21) Baptism puts us in Christ. If we are not a part of Him, we will not be saved. This is the act that results in a Christian being ‘born again’. (John 3:1-5, Romans 6:3-11, 1 John 5:1-8)

Sixth, we must continue to live as Christians, by obeying His will. (Matthew 7:21, 1 John 2:3-6, James 1:21-25) We can still turn away from God after we have done those things required to accept His grace. (James 2:8-14, Revelation 2:1-5, Acts 8:5-24, 2 Timothy 4:1-4) We have to try to remain clean, and repent when we do not. (1 John 1:9, James 5:19-20, James 1:27, Romans 11:22, Colossians 1:21-23)
 
#508
#508
Perverting the intent of baptism....

Christ alone saves, believing you have more power than christ is dangerous.
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#509
#509
OrangeEmpire said:
Perverting the intent of baptism....

Christ alone saves, believing you have more power than christ is dangerous.
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Not sure where you get the idea that I believe I have more power than Christ. I think you have a somewhat limited view of salvation, though. The bible says more about it than you.

Grace saves
Acts 15:11 "But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are."

Faith saves
1 Peter 1:9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.

Confession saves
Romans 10:10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

God saves
Luke 1:47 And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior.

Baptism saves
Romans 6:4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.

1 Peter 3:21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you--not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

There are a lot of pieces that act together to save. A person can't just read one of them and stop. We must accept them all. I have no power to save or not to save. Salvation is from God alone, through Christ. But as Jesus said no one comes to the father but by him. Jesus is the doorway, so to speak. We have to walk through it. We didn't create the door. We don't control the door. We simply use it.
 
#511
#511
OrangeEmpire said:
Perverting the intent of baptism.....
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The bible on the intent of baptism:

Romans 6
3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?

baptism share's His death with us

4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.

since we share his death, we can walk the new life

5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,

if we share his death (baptized) then we will share his resurrection (salvation)

6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;

our old self dies so that we are no longer slaves to sin

7 for he who has died is freed from sin.

if we die (v1, baptized) then we are freed from sin
 
#512
#512
RespectTradition said:
Not sure where you get the idea that I believe I have more power than Christ. I think you have a somewhat limited view of salvation, though. The bible says more about it than you.

Grace saves
Acts 15:11 "But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are."

Faith saves
1 Peter 1:9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.

Confession saves
Romans 10:10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

God saves
Luke 1:47 And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior.

Baptism saves
Romans 6:4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.

1 Peter 3:21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you--not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

There are a lot of pieces that act together to save. A person can't just read one of them and stop. We must accept them all. I have no power to save or not to save. Salvation is from God alone, through Christ. But as Jesus said no one comes to the father but by him. Jesus is the doorway, so to speak. We have to walk through it. We didn't create the door. We don't control the door. We simply use it.
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than what I say?

ok.....u think I am pulling this out of the air, back it all with scripture...

I swear the arrogance of the church of christ knows no bounds
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#513
#513
RespectTradition said:
The bible on the intent of baptism:

Romans 6
3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?

baptism share's His death with us

4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.

since we share his death, we can walk the new life

5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,

if we share his death (baptized) then we will share his resurrection (salvation)

6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;

our old self dies so that we are no longer slaves to sin

7 for he who has died is freed from sin.

if we die (v1, baptized) then we are freed from sin
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u r confusing covenant with the power of baptism
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#514
#514
VOLatile said:
Thou shalt not judge.
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2 Timothy 4:2
preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction.

He's not judging! He's just reproving, rebuking and exhorting you, you long-haired hippie freak! :p
 
#517
#517
OrangeEmpire said:
than what I say?

ok.....u think I am pulling this out of the air, back it all with scripture...

I swear the arrogance of the church of christ knows no bounds
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No. I totally accept your belief that the bible says that we are saved by faith. I just think it says more than that. I think you are ignoring plain text. I repeat what Peter said 'baptism now saves'.

Most of my brethren are very meek. My arrogance is my own. :)
 
#519
#519
OrangeEmpire said:
than what I say?

ok.....u think I am pulling this out of the air, back it all with scripture...

I swear the arrogance of the church of christ knows no bounds
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The simple truth is, I know I have issues with arrogance. That is why when I do talk about the bible I try to use as much scripture as I can. That way, the words aren't mine and I am not expressing my opinion and letting it be more important than the word. (not accusing you of doing that)

I also have a tendency not to trust other people and take them at their word. I am a big believer in verify, verify, verify. That is why I like scripture from others. That way, I can just read what the book says and know I can trust it. I know that proper interpretation is required and that can lead to honest contentions, but I also believe that there is only one true interpretation and it is our duty to find it.

I have enjoyed our talk, but it is now time for bed. Talk at you later. :hi:
 
#520
#520
Im saved by my faith in Jesus Christ, I publicly professed that faith when I was baptized.

Goin to bed fellers. Gotta roll out to the Holy Land early in the morning, may need a Red Sea type miracle tomorrow.:)
 
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