Hey alleged Christians ....

#102
#102
utvolpj said:
yes you are saying exactly that! What role does the gov't play in someone's Christian beliefs?

Every statement you are making deals with the gov't disbursement of funds and not what private individuals do with their own money. Even in the post above you can't get away from gov't.
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I am not saying that at all. I am saying that the wealthy -- and I mean people who make multi-millions every year -- more than they could ever spend with anything resembling a modest lifestyle -- are acting selfishly.
 
#103
#103
lawgator1 said:
Yes it does. The Bible says the wealthy should not be selfish.
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but does it also say they should give this money to the government like you advocate for them? Would love to see that verse

lawgator1 said:
I am not saying that at all. I am saying that the wealthy -- and I mean people who make multi-millions every year -- more than they could ever spend with anything resembling a modest lifestyle -- are acting selfishly.
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which is fine but the quote in the OP has absolutely nothing to do with that unless you can connect Christianity and government
 
#104
#104
BeecherVol said:
I am currently trying to explain "taking" and "giving" to my 4 year old right now. She struggles with it to.
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Ok. Using that distinction, the wealthy can resist government efforts at programs for the poor, but then shouldn't they turn around and give huge amounts of cash to churches and other charities?

How about the Wall Street exec making a $16 million bonus? Shouldn't he be giving away, say, $15 million of that? Instead of suing it to hire people to fight to resist tax reform?
 
#105
#105
lawgator1 said:
Yes it does. The Bible says the wealthy should not be selfish.
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Which has, as pj said, nothing to do with government.

It also says that if a man doesn't work he shouldn't eat. Which, ironically, would probably be the best plan of attack on the job market for your hero Obama.

Back to topic, though. Context means everything. Surely someone of your alleged intelligence level should understand that.
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#106
#106
lawgator1 said:
“I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” Matthew 19: 23-24

"If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me." Matthew 19:21


But enjoying all of you rationalizing your own philosophies.
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Honestly, do you have any idea who christs audience was and the context in which he was speaking........i know its lawya double speak but u look foolish.
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#107
#107
lawgator1 said:
Yes it does. The Bible says the wealthy should not be selfish.
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And that has 0 to do with the government.

Having the government take and redistribute wealth does not put the "wealthy" in a better standing with God, because they are less wealthy.

This is where "giving" and "taking" make all the difference, and the part you are totally missing.
 
#108
#108
lawgator1 said:
I am not saying that at all. I am saying that the wealthy -- and I mean people who make multi-millions every year -- more than they could ever spend with anything resembling a modest lifestyle -- are acting selfishly.
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Not a fan of freedom
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#109
#109
Vercingetorix said:
I have no idea what Jesus thought about wealthy people. All I have to go on is stuff like this:

17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? 18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother. 20 And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth. 21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.
22 And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.
23 And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God! 24 And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God! 25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
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but that was a lesson for that man regarding his idolatry. I don't think you get to say that helping the poor was ever placed above the remainder of the commandments, or any other rules that the Bible passes along.

The big piece I see in your rant on financial help for the poor as if that is some sort of measure of help. Rarely was Jesus about providing financially for the poor or "providing healthcare" for the out of work. Addressing genuine need was something he was for and it wasn't about the needy, but about service.

I don't want to diminish your point about the hypocrisy of materialism in Christians, because it is definitely an enormous issue, especially in America (Francis Chan has an interesting book out about this called "Crazy Love"). Jesus agreed completely when he talked about a rich man getting to heaven would be tougher than a camel getting through the eye of the needle, but it was only about the individual placing material wealth ahead of spiritual wealth. Placing wealth in front of God as the master of your life precludes the service that would reflect Jesus and he's clear that heaven isn't in the cards if that is the case. He doesn't remotely say that being wealthy or having material things while others are poor is absolutely a deal breaker however. He chose Abraham to father "his nation" and he was one of the wealthiest men in the world at the time. He didn't command Abraham to give his possessions away so that he might get right with God or so that everyone might have healthcare.

For my money, the priority of the commandments consists of one bullet point: Thou shalt have no other gods before Me. After that, they're all equals. If you can have money, yet keep God first, it works. Those who can do that are likely extremely rare.

Personally, I think that living modestly is the best approach, but I don't think we are doing what we call "the poor" in America any service by handing out cash. That only ensures a larger group of "the poor" for the next handout period.
 
#110
#110
lawgator1 said:
Ok. Using that distinction, the wealthy can resist government efforts at programs for the poor, but then shouldn't they turn around and give huge amounts of cash to churches and other charities?

How about the Wall Street exec making a $16 million bonus? Shouldn't he be giving away, say, $15 million of that? Instead of suing it to hire people to fight to resist tax reform?
Click to expand...

screw freedom, right
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#111
#111
BigPapaVol said:
but that was a lesson for that man regarding his idolatry. I don't think you get to say that helping the poor was ever placed above the remainder of the commandments, or any other rules that the Bible passes along.

The big piece I see in your rant on financial help for the poor as if that is some sort of measure of help. Rarely was Jesus about providing financially for the poor or "providing healthcare" for the out of work. Addressing genuine need was something he was for and it wasn't about the needy, but about service.

I don't want to diminish your point about the hypocrisy of materialism in Christians, because it is definitely an enormous issue, especially in America (Francis Chan has an interesting book out about this called "Crazy Love"). Jesus agreed completely when he talked about a rich man getting to heaven would be tougher than a camel getting through the eye of the needle, but it was only about the individual placing material wealth ahead of spiritual wealth. Placing wealth in front of God as the master of your life precludes the service that would reflect Jesus and he's clear that heaven isn't in the cards if that is the case. He doesn't remotely say that being wealthy or having material things while others are poor is absolutely a deal breaker however. He chose Abraham to father "his nation" and he was one of the wealthiest men in the world at the time. He didn't command Abraham to give his possessions away so that he might get right with God or so that everyone might have healthcare.

For my money, the priority of the commandments consists of one bullet point: Thou shalt have no other gods before Me. After that, they're all equals. If you can have money, yet keep God first, it works. Those who can do that are likely extremely rare.

Personally, I think that living modestly is the best approach, but I don't think we are doing what we call "the poor" in America any service by handing out cash. That only ensures a larger group of "the poor" for the next handout period.
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great post!
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#113
#113
BigPapaVol said:
but that was a lesson for that man regarding his idolatry. I don't think you get to say that helping the poor was ever placed above the remainder of the commandments, or any other rules that the Bible passes along.

The big piece I see in your rant on financial help for the poor as if that is some sort of measure of help. Rarely was Jesus about providing financially for the poor or "providing healthcare" for the out of work. Addressing genuine need was something he was for and it wasn't about the needy, but about service.

I don't want to diminish your point about the hypocrisy of materialism in Christians, because it is definitely an enormous issue, especially in America (Francis Chan has an interesting book out about this called "Crazy Love"). Jesus agreed completely when he talked about a rich man getting to heaven would be tougher than a camel getting through the eye of the needle, but it was only about the individual placing material wealth ahead of spiritual wealth. Placing wealth in front of God as the master of your life precludes the service that would reflect Jesus and he's clear that heaven isn't in the cards if that is the case. He doesn't remotely say that being wealthy or having material things while others are poor is absolutely a deal breaker however. He chose Abraham to father "his nation" and he was one of the wealthiest men in the world at the time. He didn't command Abraham to give his possessions away so that he might get right with God or so that everyone might have healthcare.

For my money, the priority of the commandments consists of one bullet point: Thou shalt have no other gods before Me. After that, they're all equals. If you can have money, yet keep God first, it works. Those who can do that are likely extremely rare.

Personally, I think that living modestly is the best approach, but I don't think we are doing what we call "the poor" in America any service by handing out cash. That only ensures a larger group of "the poor" for the next handout period.
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A thoughtful response, but susceptible to the point that the wealth in this country is increasingly concentrating in the hands of a relative few.
 
#115
#115
lawgator1 said:
Ok. Using that distinction, the wealthy can resist government efforts at programs for the poor, but then shouldn't they turn around and give huge amounts of cash to churches and other charities?

How about the Wall Street exec making a $16 million bonus? Shouldn't he be giving away, say, $15 million of that? Instead of suing it to hire people to fight to resist tax reform?
Click to expand...

BeecherVol said:
And that has 0 to do with the government.

Having the government take and redistribute wealth does not put the "wealthy" in a better standing with God, because they are less wealthy.

This is where "giving" and "taking" make all the difference, and the part you are totally missing.
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This would be my answer to that more or less.

If your gonna use "christian" principles in this discussion you need to inject the "attitude" in which is required behind giving or having it taken from you.
 
#116
#116
BeecherVol said:
This would be my answer to that more or less.

If your gonna use "christian" principles in this discussion you need to inject the "attitude" in which is required behind giving or having it taken from you.
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Christ equals righteous

govt equals righteous
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#117
#117
lawgator1 said:
A thoughtful response, but susceptible to the point that the wealth in this country is increasingly concentrating in the hands of a relative few.
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What does that have to do with Christians?

Would also be a problem if you were measuring relative wealth in America for something other than a ridiculous political argument. Otherwise, the only worthwhile measure is true wealth and you don't seem to be bothering with pesky notions like that or QoL. The class warfare argument seems to fit your point better, even though it is of almost no use at all.
 
#119
#119
utvolpj said:
I'm guessing this is where LG's beliefs diverge from the Libertarian party
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I mean, we all know he is sitting in his law office killing time....his answering machine picking up calls saying.....i dont get paid unless u get paid
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#120
#120
Im surprised he hasnt talked about tax exempt status and how churches are not doing their fare share
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#122
#122
Obviously u should not have the right to choose to be charitable or attain wealth
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#123
#123
BigPapaVol said:
but that was a lesson for that man regarding his idolatry. I don't think you get to say that helping the poor was ever placed above the remainder of the commandments, or any other rules that the Bible passes along.

The big piece I see in your rant on financial help for the poor as if that is some sort of measure of help. Rarely was Jesus about providing financially for the poor or "providing healthcare" for the out of work. Addressing genuine need was something he was for and it wasn't about the needy, but about service.

I don't want to diminish your point about the hypocrisy of materialism in Christians, because it is definitely an enormous issue, especially in America (Francis Chan has an interesting book out about this called "Crazy Love"). Jesus agreed completely when he talked about a rich man getting to heaven would be tougher than a camel getting through the eye of the needle, but it was only about the individual placing material wealth ahead of spiritual wealth. Placing wealth in front of God as the master of your life precludes the service that would reflect Jesus and he's clear that heaven isn't in the cards if that is the case. He doesn't remotely say that being wealthy or having material things while others are poor is absolutely a deal breaker however. He chose Abraham to father "his nation" and he was one of the wealthiest men in the world at the time. He didn't command Abraham to give his possessions away so that he might get right with God or so that everyone might have healthcare.

For my money, the priority of the commandments consists of one bullet point: Thou shalt have no other gods before Me. After that, they're all equals. If you can have money, yet keep God first, it works. Those who can do that are likely extremely rare.

Personally, I think that living modestly is the best approach, but I don't think we are doing what we call "the poor" in America any service by handing out cash. That only ensures a larger group of "the poor" for the next handout period.
Click to expand...

To the first bold.
That is exactly the truth and should not be ignored by christians.

To the second.
No servant can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money."

Luke 16:13
 
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