Holy Trinity Discussion

#351
#351
Orangeslice13 said:
Uhhhhh not sure what translation you’re using but……
Rom 9:5 NASB
whose are the fathers, and from whom is the [b]Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed [c]forever. Amen.

Phil 2 6-8 not clams of being G-d himself just in his nature.
As he’s the only begotten of G-d I don’t disagree.


Separate beings once again.
Titus 2:13 NASB looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of [j]our great God and our Savior, Christ Jesus,

Footnote J Titus 2:13 Or the great God and our Savior
Click to expand...

I'll use the NASB then.

Colossians 1:15 and 16: He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him.
 
#353
#353
bamawriter said:
I'll use the NASB then.

Colossians 1:15 and 16: He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him.
Click to expand...
Again, that doesn’t mean he is the father.
He’s the image of the Father but not the father. The creation force given authority by the father as the verse says but not the father.
 
#354
#354
Orangeslice13 said:
Again, that doesn’t mean he is the father.
He’s the image of the Father but not the father. The creation force given authority by the father as the verse says but not the father.
Click to expand...

Right. He's not the Father. Trinitarian belief says the Son is not the Father and the Father is not the Son.
 
#357
#357
Orangeslice13 said:
So 3 gods…..which violates Torah and is therefore not of G-d.
The shema excludes this possibility.
Click to expand...

One God in three persons.

An apple has a peel, flesh, and a core. You can separate one from the others and lay them next to each other. Each one is still apple.
 
#358
#358
Yeshua says he’s “the only Begotten son of G-d”
Begotten is the very definition of separation.
He claims over and over to not be G-d.
trinity violates Torah which G-d has said over and over is established in heaven and never changes. Yeshua violated Torah in any way then he’s not the Messiah.
 
#359
#359
Orangeslice13 said:
Yeshua says he’s “the only Begotten son of G-d”
Begotten is the very definition of separation.
He claims over and over to not be G-d.
trinity violates Torah which G-d has said over and over is established in heaven and never changes. Yeshua violated Torah in any way then he’s not the Messiah.
Click to expand...

Where does Jesus claim that he's not God? He regularly claims he's not the Father, and he distiniguishes himself from the Holy Spirit.
 
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#360
#360
bamawriter said:
One God in three persons.

An apple has a peel, flesh, and a core. You can separate one from the other and lay them next to each other. Each one is still apple.
Click to expand...
Yeshua never makes that claim.
Torah, which gives great details on messiah never makes this claim.
The shema excludes this possibility.
He says he’s submissive to G-d
He can do nothing on his own as all authority comes from G-d
He says he’s not G-d more than once.

If you cut the peel from an apple there and now 2 separate things.
Like one was begotten from the other………

Hey look at you. You might be starting to grasp what is happening
 
#362
#362
bamawriter said:
I'll use the NASB then.

Colossians 1:15 and 16: He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him.
Click to expand...
Firstborn of creation…….
So before creation began there was nothing other than G-d. As Torah said. Then Yeshua came in to being. Begotten of the father. A separate being as he said. Who has no power on his own….as he said…..who can do nothing without G-d…..as he said. Interesting
 
#364
#364
@Orangeslice13 ,

I very much enjoyed the discussion. I have to bounce for now.

It's not completely on point, but you should check Youtube for the debate between Wes Huff and Billy Carson. I really think you'd enjoy it. A legit expert in ancient documents vs a complete grifter who has made a ton of money by pretending to know the vast mysteries of the Scriptures. Try to find a version with the moderator edited out. He doesn't really moderate, rambles at length, and adds nothing to the conversation.
 
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#368
#368
Orangeslice13 said:
Actually that’s translation bias.
The name YHWH appears throughout the books of the old testament. But the English translations substitute “Lord” in it’s place.

Loading…

www.biblica.com
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granted I don't read hebrew and have to trust others, but it certainly isn't English that I am seeing the distinctions between El and Yahweh in.

there is a lot of...lets call it context that has changed over time, even going back to the Torah.
 
#369
#369
LouderVol said:
granted I don't read hebrew and have to trust others, but it certainly isn't English that I am seeing the distinctions between El and Yahweh in.

there is a lot of...lets call it context that has changed over time, even going back to the Torah.
Click to expand...
The reality is nobody actually knows the name of G-d in Hebrew. Trying to keep Deuteronomy has lead to His actual name being lost to history. But there have been many…..nicknames if you will……over time. They come and go in popularity but his actual name has always been some variation of YHWH.

But you’re correct. El, Elohim , Hashem, G-d, the G-d of A,I, And J , and many, many others have been used.

There’s an interesting theory that says His Revealed name that is made known in the end will be something along the lines of “El Y-H-W-H” the El being important because all of the arch class angels have “El” in this name.

The 12 archangels are:

  • Ariel: One of the 12 archangels
  • Azrael: One of the four major archangels in Islam, Azrael is responsible for taking the souls of the deceased
  • Chamuel: One of the 12 archangels
  • Gabriel: Gabriel's name means "God is my strength"
  • Jophiel: Jophiel's name means "beauty of God"
    • Jeremiel: One of the 12 archangels
    • Meteltron: One of the 12 archangels
    • Michael: One of the 12 archangels
    • Raphael: Raphael is said to present the prayers of the saints
    • Raguel: Raguel's name means "God shall pasture"
    • Raziel: One of the 12 archangels
    • Sandelphon: One of the 12 archangels
    • Uriel: Uriel's name means "Light of God" or "Fire of God"
    • Zadkiel: One of the 12 archangels
 
#370
#370
Orangeslice13 said:
Separate beings once again.
Titus 2:13 NASB looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of [j]our great God and our Savior, Christ Jesus,

Footnote J Titus 2:13 Or the great God and our Savior
Click to expand...

Searching like a Berean I noticed that second "our" is not in the NASB. The NASB, ESV and NIV all say "our God and Savior" while The KJV says "The great God and Savior" which is what the Footnote there is from.
 
#371
#371
Behr said:
Searching like a Berean I noticed that second "our" is not in the NASB. The NASB, ESV and NIV all say "our God and Savior" while The KJV says "The great God and Savior" which is what the Footnote there is from.
Click to expand...
Good for you.
That’s what everyone should do.
Copy and paste from an app on the phone. Not sure which NASB they use.

Next you should get a concordance and see if you agree with the translation.
 
#372
#372
Take this verse for example.
Rom 10 1-5

10 Brothers and sisters, my heart’s desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation. 2 For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. 3 For not knowing about God’s righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the [a]end of the Law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

5 For Moses writes of the righteousness that is [b]based on the Law, that the person who performs [c]them will live by [d]them.

Seems pretty straightforward. But in ancient writings the word for “end” is most often translated “”goal”. The translation chose end. So considering what Yeshua says about the law not passing away till the earth does did they choose the write word?

One good question to help your answer might be “to what end are we having this conversation?”
 
#373
#373
I’d say following the law can’t save you…..but if you’re looking to please G-d and you’re truly Righteous then psalms 119 might be your guide for living
 
#375
#375
Orangeslice13 said:
Good for you.
That’s what everyone should do.
Copy and paste from an app on the phone. Not sure which NASB they use.

Next you should get a concordance and see if you agree with the translation.
Click to expand...
Oh wow I never thought of that. Lulz. Pretty sure you already know what I think. My only point was during the copy and paste a word got added.
 
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