How can the talent debate even exist?

[Doyle Hargraves]

Inferior talent can still win games. If it couldn't, there would be no upsets and Vegas wouldn't exist.

Would you say that great coaching is what makes that happen?

 

[Spartacavolus]

Would you say that great coaching is what makes that happen?

could be, but not necessarily. Butch supposedly coached a great game against SC right? But if North doesn't have that crazy catch, it's an L and people would mention the mistakes. Butch coached a bad game against Vandy, but if Dobbs td isn't taken away, and we didn't score another one, we win. And people would say he coached a great game. Or at least a good one.

Could be coaching, motivation, injuries, turnovers, lucky bounce, missed pat, and/or many, many more factors.
We should've beaten Vandy, Doyle. I don't know of many people saying we shouldn't have. But us having an overwhelming talent advantage over them the last couple of years isn't accurate. Somebody mentioned they were playing backup db's, yet don't mention our wr's trying to get open were josh smith, carter and Downs. Having Max Arnold, Probst, and Toney covering the middle of the field trying to stop their 2 pro wr's is not a position I want to be in again.

 

[JOEY'S ALL VOL !!!]

It exists because you keep bringing it up.

I don't think I've seen anyone post that we have the talent we need to be a top SEC team, so I'm not sure why you think there is an ongoing debate. However, you seem to want to blame it ALL on talent and lack of speed, when it's quite evident to some that the coaching has not made adjustments and taught better technique in certain games given the talent we have.

100% accurate.

 

[southgatevol]

coaches and players make mistakes. Speed makes up for them.

Agree. Speed doesn't cure everything on the field, but it will sure be nice to have some.

 

[Spartacavolus]

100% accurate.

Not accurate. I didn't blame it all on speed. Not once.

 

[JOEY'S ALL VOL !!!]

Not accurate. I didn't blame it all on speed. Not once.

It's accurate. 99% of the board knows and has acknowledged our lack of talent and speed and yet here you are starting a thread with debate of talent in it.

 

[Spartacavolus]

It's accurate. 99% of the board knows and has acknowledged our lack of talent and speed and yet here you are starting a thread with debate of talent in it.

What he posted isn't accurate of my stance. Period. If we are going to stop discussing things that have been discussed before, there won't be many posters left.

 

[oregonvol]

they had 5 invited. We had 4. They had 2 def players in speed positions at cb and s. We have big mc.
They also have 2 wr's invited. We have 3 OL.

I imagine that's not the answer you wanted.

Oh, so we're just lying now, huh? Okay...

Here is the list of combine invites

Draft prospects invited to 2014 NFL Scouting Combine - NFL.com

I count 5 from Tennessee:

Zach Fulton
Ja'wuan James
Antonio Richardson
James Stone
Daniel McCullers

Please tell me which of those players weren't actually invited. Please tell me how you got the number "4" out of that list.

I count 4 from Vanderbilt:

Jordan Matthews
Wesley Johnson
Dre Hall
Kenny Ladler

(I get that, in your utter dishonesty, you're counting Chris Boyd as a Vanderbilt player to try to make your point. But we both know he was kicked off the team before playing a down in 2013. But, at least you're just being disingenuous with their number, not outright lying like you are with our number.)

...So that's where we're at now, huh? You have no real argument, so you just resort to lying and count on the mob mentality here to just fall in line behind you and never actually check the facts?

Seems to be working...

I guarantee you it wasn't. Surprised he asked the question without knowing the answer. Fact is, anybody who tries to argue that the 2013 roster was anything better than the 9th or 10th most talented roster in the SEC has an agenda. Vandy's talent was much closer than any of us wanted to admit or believe. The 2014 class is the first step to getting that corrected.

 

[CountVolcula]

Oh, so we're just lying now, huh? Okay...

Here is the list of combine invites

Draft prospects invited to 2014 NFL Scouting Combine - NFL.com

I count 5 from Tennessee:

Zach Fulton
Ja'wuan James
Antonio Richardson
James Stone
Daniel McCullers

Please tell me which of those players weren't actually invited. Please tell me how you got the number "4" out of that list.

I count 4 from Vanderbilt:

Jordan Matthews
Wesley Johnson
Dre Hall
Kenny Ladler

(I get that, in your utter dishonesty, you're counting Chris Boyd as a Vanderbilt player to try to make your point. But we both know he was kicked off the team before playing a down in 2013. But, at least you're just being disingenuous with their number, not outright lying like you are with our number.)

...So that's where we're at now, huh? You have no real argument, so you just resort to lying and count on the mob mentality here to just fall in line behind you and never actually check the facts?

Seems to be working...

Did you round to the nearest 10th?

 

[Spartacavolus]

I didn't lie. Get a life and a room together. When oregonvol posed the question, I looked it up and a link listed the number of invites by college. Vandy was ranked ahead of UT, 5 to 4.
Didn't look at the names. And still, in this years draft and next, Vandy will have more players taken. That didn't change. I think the link I looked at may have just been a list of seniors. If UT had only 4 listed, Tiny must not have been on there.

So as far as utter dishonesty, disingenuous, lying, mob mentality, and whatever else the biggest baby on the board mentioned in his post after taking it to a personal level, orevol, go **** yourself. Just like everything else, you take something and turn it into something it's not.

 

[sjt18]

Big Dan is invited to the combine. Mainly to be big and clog the middle. Otherwise, we have had no db's, lbs or dl invited to the combine in 2 years.

None of the starting DB's graduated. They all return.

Another way to look at it is that guys like Walls and Miller were talented guys who got screwed out of their shot at the NFL by playing for one and maybe two bad DC's.

How do people overlook the lack of talent and speed? And act like its a non issue?

Who exactly said that talent was not an issue?

It was. But not enough to result in the worst scoring D UT has had in at least 50 years.

Nfl must think its more than angles, and the entire staff has discussed lack of speed.

Players were constantly out of position. The scheming and playcalling were poor. That in addition to a lack of talent resulted in the bad performance. It wasn't JUST talent.

 

[Vol8188]

lack of speed was pretty obvious to me......how many talckles did AJ make last year on the sidelines 5 to 10 yards past the line of scrimmage.

I think that was more of an issue with our DEs and safeties. We could never hold the edge and had no ally support from the secondary.

 

[VolFan31]

But not enough to result in the worst scoring D UT has had in at least 50 years.

It was not the worst scoring D in the last 50 years it wasn't even the worst scoring D in the last 2 years. We were almost 7 points better this year then we were last year.

Players were constantly out of position. The scheming and playcalling were poor. That in addition to a lack of talent resulted in the bad performance. It wasn't JUST talent.

These same players were playing out of position long before Butch Jones got there. Even with this problem the D was almost 7 points better then last year despite the offense not being able to move the ball leaving the D on the field a lot. Hopefully with some consistency within the coaching staff they will straighten it out this year, but seeing that a lot of these players have had a hard time getting into position no matter who the coach is it might be an issue with the players. The scheming and playcalling on defense is hard for me to judge with players constantly getting beat or out of position I don't know if there were any plays that could be called that would have been effective.

 

[olesmokey081764]

I think that was more of an issue with our DEs and safeties. We could never hold the edge and had no ally support from the secondary.

agreed, that was kinda my point, mlb having to make the play on the sidelines 10 yards down field due to the olb and corners getting beat on the edge at the line of scrimmage

 

[UTRavens]

(I get that, in your utter dishonesty, you're counting Chris Boyd as a Vanderbilt player to try to make your point. But we both know he was kicked off the team before playing a down in 2013. But, at least you're just being disingenuous with their number, not outright lying like you are with our number.)

...So that's where we're at now, huh? You have no real argument, so you just resort to lying and count on the mob mentality here to just fall in line behind you and never actually check the facts?

Wow, calm down *******. Maybe he just miscounted.

 

[Vol8188]

agreed, that was kinda my point, mlb having to make the play on the sidelines 10 yards down field due to the olb and corners getting beat on the edge at the line of scrimmage

Cool, just making sure it wasn't a jab at AJs speed.

 

[tm3]

another take on "talent"

Below is a breakdown of how many four- and five-star prospects each SEC school has signed in the last four years:

•Alabama: 66 (21 in 2013, 17 in 2012, 16 in 2011, 12 in 2010)

•Florida: 66 (22 in 2013, 15 in 2012, 11 in 2011, 18 in 2010)

•Georgia: 57 (21 in 2013, 10 in 2012, 17 in 2011, 9 in 2010)

•Auburn: 54 (15 in 2013, 12 in 2012, 16 in 2011, 11 in 2010)

•LSU: 49 (20 in 2013, 9 in 2012, 8 in 2011, 12 in 2010)

•South Carolina: 33 (11 in 2013, 10 in 2012, 7 in 2011, 5 in 2010)

•Tennessee: 33 (7 in 2013, 7 in 2012, 9 in 2011, 10 in 2010)

•Texas A&M: 31 (17 in 2013, 10 in 2012, 1 in 2011, 3 in 2010)

•Ole Miss: 25 (14 in 2013, 3 in 2012, 4 in 2011, 4 in 2010)

•Arkansas: 21 (5 in 2013, 5 in 2012, 9 in 2011, 2 in 2010)

•Mississippi State: 15 (8 in 2013, 3 in 2012, 0 in 2011, 4 in 2010)

•Vanderbilt: 13 (12 in 2013, 1 in 2012, 0 in 2011, 0 in 2010)

•Missouri: 11 (4 in 2013, 4 in 2012, 0 in 2011, 3 in 2010)

•Kentucky: 9 (6 in 2013, 1 in 2012, 1 in 2011, 1 in 2010)

Total records over that 4 year span:
Alabama: 46-7
Florida: 30-21
Georgia: 36-18
Auburn: 37-16
LSU: 44-9
USCe: 42-11
UT: 21-28
TAM: 36-16
Ole Miss:21-29
Arkansas: 28-22
Miss ST: 31-21
Vanderbilt: 26-25
Mizzou: 35-17
UK: 15-34

 

[DC Vol]

TBH the Vandy game wasn't really on the Defense.

The D held Vandy to 193 yards total through almost the entire game (until last drive) and forced 4 turnovers in the process. Even 285 yards total and 14 points conceded isn't a bad outing.

Vandy put up 329/24 on TAMU.
337/31 on UGA.
468/28 on Mizzou
268/25 on USC

If the D had somehow found a way to stuff that final drive, it would have resulted in the 2nd lowest yardage output Vandy had all season. The 14 points scored was the season low (but to be fair the Florida points were more about field position).

To me, it was more of an anemic Offense that lost it for us. Dropped passes and an injured Marquez North didn't help. 53 passing yards.

53.

That's why we lost. Not defense. Not depth. Not talent.

53 passing yards on 19 passes.

 

[Spartacavolus]

agree. Dobbs was hurt that game. Couldn't grip the ball or drive with his leg. Bad gameplan, considering. Had them beat if Pig just stands still instead of block in the back, imo.
D was dogged for giving up that last drive but again, they have the SEC alltime leading receiver working the middle of the field where we have Sun Belt lbs and db's in the nickel deciding the game.
Vandy was to their 2nd group in the secondary, but we were sending receivers out that really shouldn't be playing in the SEC consistently and with no TE in our offense, we were extremely limited. Should've run it everytime.

 

[fur burglar]

they had 5 invited. We had 4. They had 2 def players in speed positions at cb and s. We have big mc.
They also have 2 wr's invited. We have 3 OL.

I imagine that's not the answer you wanted.

They beat us after losing their entire defensive backfield to injuries and an ejections and with a freshman QB from Maryville that isn't good enough to play here.

Their starting DBs (cornerbacks and safeties), and their starting mlb were out, so however many of them are invited to the nfl combine is a moot point when arguing why Vanderbilt beat us.

 

[Spartacavolus]

I haven't argued anything about why vandy beat us. I have discussed.
As far as your comment about their db's, when we have carter, smith and downs on the field with a hurt true freshman qb, we don't really have the advantage. That's not an excuse. Just true.

 

[majorvol]

I think if Maggit could have played we would have been a lot better on D , I'm glad AJ came back so well be able to see them together. As for last years talent y'all are beating a dead horse . It's a game of inches as they say and we didn't get it done.

 

[Vol8188]

another take on "talent"

Below is a breakdown of how many four- and five-star prospects each SEC school has signed in the last four years:

•Alabama: 66 (21 in 2013, 17 in 2012, 16 in 2011, 12 in 2010)

•Florida: 66 (22 in 2013, 15 in 2012, 11 in 2011, 18 in 2010)

•Georgia: 57 (21 in 2013, 10 in 2012, 17 in 2011, 9 in 2010)

•Auburn: 54 (15 in 2013, 12 in 2012, 16 in 2011, 11 in 2010)

•LSU: 49 (20 in 2013, 9 in 2012, 8 in 2011, 12 in 2010)

•South Carolina: 33 (11 in 2013, 10 in 2012, 7 in 2011, 5 in 2010)

•Tennessee: 33 (7 in 2013, 7 in 2012, 9 in 2011, 10 in 2010)

•Texas A&M: 31 (17 in 2013, 10 in 2012, 1 in 2011, 3 in 2010)

•Ole Miss: 25 (14 in 2013, 3 in 2012, 4 in 2011, 4 in 2010)

•Arkansas: 21 (5 in 2013, 5 in 2012, 9 in 2011, 2 in 2010)

•Mississippi State: 15 (8 in 2013, 3 in 2012, 0 in 2011, 4 in 2010)

•Vanderbilt: 13 (12 in 2013, 1 in 2012, 0 in 2011, 0 in 2010)

•Missouri: 11 (4 in 2013, 4 in 2012, 0 in 2011, 3 in 2010)

•Kentucky: 9 (6 in 2013, 1 in 2012, 1 in 2011, 1 in 2010)

Total records over that 4 year span:
Alabama: 46-7
Florida: 30-21
Georgia: 36-18
Auburn: 37-16
LSU: 44-9
USCe: 42-11
UT: 21-28
TAM: 36-16
Ole Miss:21-29
Arkansas: 28-22
Miss ST: 31-21
Vanderbilt: 26-25
Mizzou: 35-17
UK: 15-34

We've had a ton of 4 stars transfer over that time frame also. The 2012 class being the worst, losin Bourque at RB, Phillips at DT, Bonner a CB, Watson at RB, Gray at CB, Meredith at TE.

If you don't count the 3 jucos, we signed 19 in that class. We've already lost 6 of them. That's nearly a third of the class, and all were players we were countin on at positions of need.

 

[tm3]

We've had a ton of 4 stars transfer over that time frame also. The 2012 class being the worst, losin Bourque at RB, Phillips at DT, Bonner a CB, Watson at RB, Gray at CB, Meredith at TE.

If you don't count the 3 jucos, we signed 19 in that class. We've already lost 6 of them. That's nearly a third of the class, and all were players we were countin on at positions of need.

True. But, so have other schools. In fact some analysts say that the attrition is widespread enough that it can be discounted as far as comparison.

 

[Vol8188]

True. But, so have other schools. In fact some analysts say that the attrition is widespread enough that it can be discounted as far as comparison.

Compare it to other SEC schools. I'm of the opinion ours has been far worse due to multiple coaching and the number of thugs Kiffin recruited. It was what, 8 of his top 9 who got kicked off the team? That's unreal.