How Did Louisville Get More D Talent Than UT?

#51
#51
I think you answered your own question, that being said... one word: Recruiting was better

or 3 words
 
#52
#52
Voldemonium said:
I'm not picking on you but we are the UT team that lost to Mizzou, lost to MissSt for the first time in 20yrs, gave up 700yds of offense to Troy, and got blasted by Vandy. We have a lot of players that look the part. Jac Smith looks like an all SEC DE yet I can probably count his career sacks on one hand. Same goes for Corey Miller.

Our secondary doesn't remotely resemble an SEC defense. I saw Louiville corners rallying to the ball with speed. Brian Moore, Justin Coleman, Eric Gordon, etc got burned more than any Tennessee defense in history and they don't wrap up when they tackle. They got burned when Wilcox was here too so even though Sunseri sucked their failure wasn't all on him. By all accounts they're good kids but NONE of them would sniff the field at Bama, LSU, UF. I'm not saying we need a team of Janzen Jacksons and Eric Berrys but we absolutely need some ballers. There's not a single CP on the entire defense.

Again, there's nothing wrong with making an honest assessment of where we're at. Dooley did not re-stock the pantry at UT. If Bray, Patterson, & Hunter go pro, the only area that we're better than when Dooley arrived will be the O-line.
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it doesnt sound like (and i can't blame you) that you have watched a lot of UL games this year b/c the defense has not been good

UL played a good game but the defense was more an aberration than the norm

they gave up 45 to Syracuse, 34 to UNC, 35 to Pitt (73rd O in country), 25 to USF (106th O in country)

you watched the UL defense on by far their best night of the year

on another note i would also say it is hard to say what talent we have - i for one saw some good things out of some of these players and then we would have these total schematic meltdowns - i think with a DC that can put them in decent spots we might find out that we do have some talent on D
 
#53
#53
RichRollin said:
What if we had Clawson as OC and Sal as DC at the same time? I just vomited in my mouth and washed it down with coffee thinking about it.
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Maybe thats what Phil should've done in 08. We could've have been back on track by now.

Well...we might've just burnt knoxville to the ground too.
 
#54
#54
therealitytheory said:
Not to belittle YOU, but a large population is hardly an indicator of a desirable locale (many, many million plus cities are ****eholes).

Better to compare football tradition, facilities, following etc.
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That may be true, but I've been to Louisville on many occasions and can assure you that it's no ****hole. Pretty cool town overall. Can't really speak to the university. Just know that I had a buddy who went there on a track and field scholarship and really enjoyed his time there.
 
#55
#55
Please define "talent."

Not trying to be a troll. I am serious. Is talent size, strength, speed and general athleticism? Or are you throwing in things like football skills (tackling, etc) and football IQ?

I ask because it makes a big difference in these discussions. The Tennessee defense did not give up 700 yards to Troy because of the superior athletic abilities of Troy. They didn't give up the game-winning TD to Mizzou because the DB got beat athletically.

Call a mental breakdown, lack of focus, lack of understanding, whatever. But, it was blatant in most every game that the UT D was making a BUNCH of fundamental mistakes. Is that because they weren't being taught correctly or because they were incapable of learning?
 
#56
#56
shows u what coaching does.

even table scraps from fsu , miami, and uf is better than most regional talent.

strong is an excellent d coach
 
#57
#57
Col_Cathcart said:
That may be true, but I've been to Louisville on many occasions and can assure you that it's no ****hole. Pretty cool town overall. Can't really speak to the university. Just know that I had a buddy who went there on a track and field scholarship and really enjoyed his time there.
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it is definitely not a ****hole - over the last 20 years that dtown area has really become a nice area and Jurich has transformed that campus and AD - the facilities for bball and fball are top of the line - obviously not as big as Neyland but the stadium is very nice - and the bball stadium is the best in the country

the people comparing Cincy to Lville when comparing Strong to CBC were very misguided - Cincy is a real ****hole, in a very bad area of town, facilities are junk - Lville on the other hand is a really nice place
 
#58
#58
landscapingvol said:
Bama fans make excuses for him all of the time. "He needs great linebackers, lock down corners, and a good pass rush to run his system" was their mantra. I could coach a great defense with those kind of players. He was a total failure.
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Yeah because he is a terrible dc.
Bama fans=idiots
 
#59
#59
Charlie Strong , who i posted as the #1 choice for THC, recruits Florida, knows he can develop talent and can coach the D well ! He has roughly 40% (34 of 85) players from Florida, and his team knows they can play with anyone and were not afraid ! You also saw that he OUT COACHED Will Muschamp by a LARGE MARGIN ! It remains to be seen if Muschamp will be a good coach , or another Les Miles who wins a lot of games by simply having superior talent vs. the teams they play . Butch Jones has the same potential as CS to bring in talent and coach them up , which he will . I also believe the Texas A&M coach will have the Aggies pushing Bama for the SEC west crown . He appears to be a better developer of talent than Miles . Case in point , LSU never develops quarterback talent , they play about the same when they leave as when they arrived, with the exception of Matt Flynn . We will be fine by the midpoint of the 2014 season Vol Nation ! Patience people !
 
#60
#60
WiseOlVol said:
Anyone notice that Driskel, Burton and Gillislee weren't running down the sidelines all night vs. the Cards?

Florida tried only 2 end arounds and bootlegs and got crunched but good.

After a few tries early, Pease realized UL had real closing speed, and UF was left with playing it straight, at which they're not very good.

Speed has no slump, and we ain't got much (do we?) on D.
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I still think there are very few teams as talented on D as ut, but also very few teams who have had as poor of coaching as ut, namely USC now and LA tech before we hired Dooley..
 
#61
#61
PimpVol said:
Louisville has better players. They played Florida better, with those better players. Anything else is an excuse or compaint, both of which are equally useless.
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I disagree with your analysis and simplistic conclusion. Yes, Louisville did play Florida better. No, Louisville did not have better players. Simply beating Florida did not prove that. I agree more with a previous poster. Virtually the Same D put up good numbers the year before. What changed? Primarily, the D Coordinator changed. This year was more about atrocious Defensive coaches with players constantly being caught out of place. Wagner, Lathers, A.J. and others are good players. If they had been coached well, we would have won many of those 'close games'.
 
#63
#63
WiseOlVol said:
Anyone notice that Driskel, Burton and Gillislee weren't running down the sidelines all night vs. the Cards?

Florida tried only 2 end arounds and bootlegs and got crunched but good.

After a few tries early, Pease realized UL had real closing speed, and UF was left with playing it straight, at which they're not very good.

Speed has no slump, and we ain't got much (do we?) on D.
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I would all but guarantee that if you compared measurables between UT's defensive players and UL's that UT's would be stronger, faster, and quicker on the whole. UL's players played their responsibilities consistently. They know their scheme with the confidence to play at full speed all the time. Their defensive play calling was exceptional.

By contrast, Sal's system was complex and disjointed. It had exploitable holes everywhere. The players never had the confidence to "play fast" even if the scheme might have worked otherwise. Play calling was consistently bad and predictable after NCSU. IMHO, had NCSU been the 3rd game of the season instead of the 1st... they would have outscored UT also.
 
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#65
#65
SaintLouisVol said:
Please define "talent."

Not trying to be a troll. I am serious. Is talent size, strength, speed and general athleticism? Or are you throwing in things like football skills (tackling, etc) and football IQ?

I ask because it makes a big difference in these discussions. The Tennessee defense did not give up 700 yards to Troy because of the superior athletic abilities of Troy. They didn't give up the game-winning TD to Mizzou because the DB got beat athletically.

Call a mental breakdown, lack of focus, lack of understanding, whatever. But, it was blatant in most every game that the UT D was making a BUNCH of fundamental mistakes. Is that because they weren't being taught correctly or because they were incapable of learning?
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I suspect we draw the imaginary line where talent ends and coaching begins a bit differently. I think your suggestion that it matters in this discussion is spot on.

I tend to classify things like taking proper angles toward a ball carrier, playing the ball in the air, and wraping up when tackling as fundamentals that a D-1 ball player should bring to college with him. Kinda like I don't expect Dave Serrano to teach outfielders how to catch a pop fly correctly or how to read a players swing and shade left or right as necessary.

Scheme absolutely matters. I don't absolve Sunseri. Scheme is the reason our players might not have made the initial stop but bad angles is simple physics. You don't run to the spot ball carrier is at currently, you anticipate his destination and head him off there. Its almost like our defenders had never played tag as kids. There were far too many 5-10yrd runs that turned into 70yrd tds because of poor angles and lack of closing speed. I consider closing speed a talent issue. Playing speed and confusion may be coaching but no amount of coaching is gonna help a slow DB catch a RB that's made it to the second level.

Again, I come back to the CP analogy. CP and to a somewhat lesser extent Hunter, were recognized as stars at their position. Our entire Oline will be drafted in the 1st or 2nd round. Except for possibly Brian Randolph(?) is there anyone on the defense that looked close to all conference? I remember Berry looking good even when we sucked in '08. Janzen looked good in Wilcox's 1st year. I believe genuinely good players can show flashes even under bad circumstances. I just don't think anyone on the defense really did that.

And I'm not saying LV is necessarily more talented man for man than TN but they play with a fundamental football IQ that's far greater than we've demonstrated.
 
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#66
#66
I live in Miami Florida and some of the High school programs could play in division 1 college ball. Fulmer used to pull to or three every year. Tennessee Should recruit Florida just hard as Georgia.I loved getting away from Miami for 6 years, Tennessee is a beautiful place and why the bring in most of the recruits when the trees are bear in stupid to me. Show the boys why we are the big orange.
 
#68
#68
screenthis said:
I disagree with your analysis and simplistic conclusion. Yes, Louisville did play Florida better. No, Louisville did not have better players. Simply beating Florida did not prove that. I agree more with a previous poster. Virtually the Same D put up good numbers the year before. What changed? Primarily, the D Coordinator changed. This year was more about atrocious Defensive coaches with players constantly being caught out of place. Wagner, Lathers, A.J. and others are good players. If they had been coached well, we would have won many of those 'close games'.
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Not to belabor the point but Lathers can't run. He just can't! And PWag is good for an interception every now and again but he's not a shutdown corner. I'll give you A.J. and a healthy Curt Maggit.

My question is why can other teams beat UF but we perpetually wet the bed. Ole Miss has done it. Miss St did it at the peak of Tebow. USC 2yrs running, and now LV.

We need players.
 
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#69
#69
Miavol said:
I live in Miami Florida and some of the High school programs could play in division 1 college ball. Fulmer used to pull to or three every year. Tennessee Should recruit Florida just hard as Georgia.I loved getting away from Miami for 6 years, Tennessee is a beautiful place and why the bring in most of the recruits when the trees are bear in stupid to me. Show the boys why we are the big orange.
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The latter part I agree with. I do not know why any coach would bring a kid in from FL when the weather is cool and gray.

The first part not so much. UT has to get players from FL and will probably continue to do so. But they need to win in NC, Upstate SC, TN, and Ga first. SC is obviously tougher than ever but the football quality is improving rapidly in NC. The smart coach would work very hard to get established there.
 
#71
#71
screenthis said:
I disagree with your analysis and simplistic conclusion. Yes, Louisville did play Florida better. No, Louisville did not have better players. Simply beating Florida did not prove that. I agree more with a previous poster. Virtually the Same D put up good numbers the year before. What changed? Primarily, the D Coordinator changed. This year was more about atrocious Defensive coaches with players constantly being caught out of place. Wagner, Lathers, A.J. and others are good players. If they had been coached well, we would have won many of those 'close games'.
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What changes from season to season is your team, and the teams you play. Trying to compare last year and this year is pointless. Louisville and UT had a common opponent. The scores were polar opposites. They won a blowout. We lost a blowout. Disgree all you like. Then watch the games and get a dose of reality. We have little to no defensive talent. Louisville has enough to throttle Florida.
 
#74
#74
sjt18 said:
I would all but guarantee that if you compared measurables between UT's defensive players and UL's that UT's would be stronger, faster, and quicker on the whole. UL's players played their responsibilities consistently. They know their scheme with the confidence to play at full speed all the time. Their defensive play calling was exceptional.

By contrast, Sal's system was complex and disjointed. It had exploitable holes everywhere. The players never had the confidence to "play fast" even if the scheme might have worked otherwise. Play calling was consistently bad and predictable after NCSU. IMHO, had NCSU been the 3rd game of the season instead of the 1st... they would have outscored UT also.
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Bad players on D for UT got beaten badly two years in a row (2011, 2012). Scoreboard is THE stat of importance. Check it out the last two years.
 
#75
#75
Voldemonium said:
I suspect we draw the imaginary line where talent ends and coaching begins a bit differently. I think your suggestion that it matters in this discussion is spot on.

I tend to classify things like taking proper angles toward a ball carrier, playing the ball in the air, and wraping up when tackling as fundamentals that a D-1 ball player should bring to college with him. Kinda like I don't expect Dave Serrano to teach outfielders how to catch a pop fly correctly or how to read a players swing and shade left or right as necessary.

Scheme absolutely matters. I don't absolve Sunseri. Scheme is the reason our players might not have made the initial stop but bad angles is simple physics. You don't run to the spot ball carrier is at currently, you anticipate his destination and head him off there. Its almost like our defenders had never played tag as kids. There were far too many 5-10yrd runs that turned into 70yrd tds because of poor angles and lack of closing speed. I consider closing speed a talent issue. Playing speed and confusion may be coaching but no amount of coaching is gonna help a slow DB catch a RB that's made it to the second level.

Again, I come back to the CP analogy. CP and to a somewhat lesser extent Hunter, were recognized as stars at their position. Our entire Oline will be drafted in the 1st or 2nd round. Except for possibly Brian Randolph(?) is there anyone on the defense that looked close to all conference? I remember Berry looking good even when we sucked in '08. Janzen looked good in Wilcox's 1st year. I believe genuinely good players can show flashes even under bad circumstances. I just don't think anyone on the defense really did that.

And I'm not saying LV is necessarily more talented man for man than TN but they play with a fundamental football IQ that's far greater than we've demonstrated.
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We had the speed to make many of those plays if we take the proper angle. If you run a 4.4 and don't take the proper angle you still won't make the play. And IMO taking angles in HS and college are nowhere near the same thing because the speed is so much different. Tackling in HS isn't the same as in the SEC either. That comes back to coaching. Stuff like that should be cleaned up in the film room and on the practice field. I specifically remember times where it was 3rd and long and we played a single safety. I'm talking 3rd and 18,etc. the safety was to help over the top but had too much ground to cover in order to do so. So by being a step or two late it looked like the safety was too slow to make the play. When in reality a better scheme would have left him knocking the WR's head off or getting a pick.

It's interesting to read old threads on players. When they commit here they are awesome. Then after a season like last yr the very same people consider them chopped liver....I think not. Every single DB we recruit isnt a bust. It's coaching. B. Moore, Justin Coleman, Brian Randolph, Bonner, the big safety from Texas....these are not rag tag football players. Youth was an issue last year as well as coaching with our DBs. But these dudes are good SEC quality football players.

As for All-SEC/NFL caliber players. I'm pretty sure AJ Johnson not being All-SEC was one of the biggest snubs of all time. 2nd in SEC and 6th nationally in tackles, along with 12 rushes for 6 TDs. Those are damn all American numbers. As for NFL talent, I see plenty of NFL players on our D. Johnson, Maggit, Sentimore, McCullers, Jordan Williams, possibly B. Moore. And in no way should the young DBs be overlooked. If COACHED PROPERLY, a couple of these dudes should be NFL bound. Especially Bonner and McNiel. If these dudes can put it all together they have all the potential in the world. NFL potential.
 
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