Huge Recruiting News- The 28 Limit

#101
#101
I was wondering what happened to James Green. Anyone know what happened to a big DL lineman recruit from LA a couple years ago - Melancon. I know he didn't qualify but any idea where he went. I remember him being a pretty good get at the time. Who else didn't qualify from this past recruiting class?
 
#102
#102
HomeGrownVol said:
I was wondering what happened to James Green. Anyone know what happened to a big DL lineman recruit from LA a couple years ago - Melancon. I know he didn't qualify but any idea where he went. I remember him being a pretty good get at the time. Who else didn't qualify from this past recruiting class?
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Could be wrong.
 
#106
#106
g8terh8ter_eric said:
If we had the room, we would be able to sign more and back count them. The problem is that we are only 2 schollies short of the 85 limit. So, if you are at the 85 total then you can only sign 25 and maybe less. If you have schollies available under the 85 and you had the room from the previous class to back count, then you can back count as many as it takes to hit the 85 number as long as you don't go over the 25 total in the previous year's class.

So, for us right now here's the math.....

We have 83 Total on scholarship and we only had 23 total signed last year.

So, we can back count 2 to get to the 85, which means we can sign 27 total for this class. 25 (total number you can enroll at once) + 2 (number of players we can enroll and back count to 2009) = 27 TOTAL players we can sign for 2010 including the back counted players.
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I think you are forgetting that we have people graduating this year.

The bottom line is we can sign 30 prospects and backcount 2. We can only enroll 25 in August so we would have to either gray shirt 3 or 3 would have to not qualify.
 
#107
#107
You all are saying that early enrollees can only be back-counted if less than 25 scholarships were used on the prior class AND less than 85 players received scholarships the previous season. I didn't think back-counting was constrained by the previous year's roster size - I thought it was only restricted by the 25 scholarship per year limit.

So, then, if a team with a full roster in 2008 graduates 27 players, that same team would only have 25 scholarships to offer to their 2009 class of recruits? - even if only 18 scholarships were given to their 2008 class?

To me, this begs the question: is the term of an athletic scholarship one calender year or one academic year? If it's the latter, then scholarships with a Jan..-Dec. term will expire before the next group of January prospects enroll. Early enrollees could then be back-counted and could receive scholarships taken from active players (say walk-ons) who were formerly receiving athletic aide on a Jan.-Dec. cycle. Though it's very unlikely, scholarships for some of those guys who left the program could have potentially been given to the 2009 early enrollees in January, that is before they had even decided to transfer. lol. - how messed up would that be? Anyway, under that scenario, it would mean up to 4 of the 24 commits in 2009 (Hughes, Sykes, Williams, and Mitchell-Thornton) were back-counted to the 2008 class, leaving us as many as 30 (25+5) scholarships available for the 2010 class. And I'm not so sure Daniel Hood was ever extended a scholarship offer.
 
#108
#108
I-CUP Insider said:
You all are saying that early enrollees can only be back-counted if less than 25 scholarships were used on the prior class AND less than 85 players received scholarships the previous season. I didn't think back-counting was constrained by the previous year's roster size - I thought it was only restricted by the 25 scholarship per year limit.

So, then, if a team with a full roster in 2008 graduates 27 players, that same team would only have 25 scholarships to offer to their 2009 class of recruits? - even if only 18 scholarships were given to their 2008 class?

To me, this begs the question: is the term of an athletic scholarship one calender year or one academic year? If it's the latter, then scholarships with a Jan..-Dec. term will expire before the next group of January prospects enroll. Early enrollees could then be back-counted and could receive scholarships taken from active players (say walk-ons) who were formerly receiving athletic aide on a Jan.-Dec. cycle. Though it's very unlikely, scholarships for some of those guys who left the program could have potentially been given to the 2009 early enrollees in January, that is before they had even decided to transfer. lol. - how messed up would that be? Anyway, under that scenario, it would mean up to 4 of the 24 commits in 2009 (Hughes, Sykes, Williams, and Mitchell-Thornton) were back-counted to the 2008 class, leaving us as many as 30 (25+5) scholarships available for the 2010 class. And I'm not so sure Daniel Hood was ever extended a scholarship offer.
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I'm really not sure what you're saying here, but you give several numbers that are wrong, yet you still came up with the right number in the end: 30. I'm not quite sure how though.

Look folks. You're making this more difficult to understand than it really is. Here's the deal. We ended up with a class of 23 last year. That means we have room to count 2 early enrollees toward last year's class. That means those two players will not have to count toward this year's class.

The only difference we are talking about with the new rule here is that you can only oversign 3 players this year. You can't do what Ole Miss did last year and sign 37 players. The amount that you can enroll each year hasn't changed. That number is 25.

So counting early enrollees that count back to last class, we can potentially sign 30 recruits. Don't worry about the 85 limit on scholarships. That's too hard to figure out and no one has the exact numbers. I would guess that being that we only have around 80 now and are graduating 20 something that we will have plenty of room to sign the 27 that we are allotted.

If the coaches feel strongly that they are going to have to sign and place a guy or two, they will not turn down someone wanting to play here, they'll figure out the semantics later.

So the magic number again, is 30 with 2 of those counting toward last year's class.
 
#109
#109
Hubbs said you can only have 25 kids go towards each class. We had 23 in 09. So the max we could backcount is 2. That equals 27 kids. You can sign 30 because we are backcounting the 2. If you take those away you get 28 which equals the 28 per class SEC rule. I don't think it matters who graduates or leaves for that matter. At least per. Hubbs info.
 
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#110
#110
Sabanocchio,

I understand what you're saying. I'm just trying to figure out if or why we couldn't back-count players this year (for the 2009 class). Some have argued that we weren't able to because we had a full (85) roster during the early enrollment period. So I'm just asking whether or not an early enrollee can be back-counted to fill a spot of someone who had left the team the season before.

For example, if a team starts the 2009 season with 85 scholarship student-athletes and 3 of those players quit school during week 3, how many 2010 early enrollee scholarships can be back-counted (without regarding the 25-rule)? 0 or 3?

Our final numbers aren't actually the same because your 30 represents the number of LOIs we can hand out this year, whereas the 30 I gave represents the hypothetical number of scholarships we would have available this year had our early enrollees been back-counted to the 2008 class.

As far as my numbers being wrong, I originally had 23 from last year, but added Montori Hughes to the 2009 class since others were including him in their list of early enrollees. Anyway, sorry for making the subject even more confusing.
 
#111
#111
I-CUP Insider said:
Sabanocchio,

I understand what you're saying. I'm just trying to figure out if or why we couldn't back-count players this year (for the 2009 class). Some have argued that we weren't able to because we had a full (85) roster during the early enrollment period. So I'm just asking whether or not an early enrollee can be back-counted to fill a spot of someone who had left the team the season before.

For example, if a team starts the 2009 season with 85 scholarship student-athletes and 3 of those players quit school during week 3, how many 2010 early enrollee scholarships can be back-counted (without regarding the 25-rule)? 0 or 3?
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Well for starters, we did backcount 2 early enrollees to last year's class. The rule is you can only have 85 players on scholarship at any given time, so it really doesn't matter why a player leaves or why you have a vacant spot be it graduation or attrition. So if you have the room, you can backcount all the way up until the class has 25 enrolled players in it. So the answer is 3.
Our final numbers aren't actually the same because your 30 represents the number of LOIs we can hand out this year, whereas the 30 I gave represents the hypothetical number of scholarships we would have available this year had our early enrollees been back-counted to the 2008 class.

As far as my numbers being wrong, I originally had 23 from last year, but added Montori Hughes to the 2009 class since others were including him in their list of early enrollees. Anyway, sorry for making the subject even more confusing.
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We did backcount 2 players and that gets us to a total of 25 players including Lamaison and Daniel Hood and subtracting James Green who did not qualify. I think where you may be confused is we could not backcount any from the previous class because we were at our scholarship limit.

I hope that helps you understand.
 
#112
#112
Ok, this is how I'm breaking it down:

22 players in the 2009 class (per rivals' board) -James Green + Lamaison = 22 in the class of 2009

- 3 early enrollees going to the 2008 class (from what I've read Sykes, Williams, and Mitchell-Thornton) = 19 scholarships used in 2009.

25-19 = 6 unused scholarships from the 2009 class to back-count on top of the 25 that we're allotted in 2010 = 31

Daniel hood is on the rivals board, but for some reason they're only listing 22 players and I don't know who's missing. With that said, where am I messing up?
 
#113
#113
The 85 scholarship rule starts on June 1 each year. That is when the coaching staff has to turn into the school what players are recaiving a athlethic schoalrship, whether it be renewed for returning or new for incoming players. If a player comes in January, early enrollee or JUCO they recieve a scholarship essentially for the spring semester and have to renew it June 1, hence why an early enrollee can't sign a NLI because they will only be there for one semester in that cycle. A athlethic sholarship goes along the same calander as an academic sholarship. This one is a little bit trickier for them but they have some room here how these players get scholarships and or other financial aide packages. I believe a player that graduates in Dec. their remaining award can be assigned to an early enrollee. They are not backcounted they just become a part of the 85 max, unless their is room to backcount.

If a player is on scholarship as of June 1 for the upcoming season as a returning player they do not count towards the new 25 scholarship max for that year, but if they leave you can not back count a player into their spot once the scholarship has been assigned to them for that upcoming year. So if three returning players receive scholarships for the 2009 season and leave the team, during the season or the spring after the season a school can not back count into those spots. Even with all the deadwait we disgarded in the spring we could only backcount a few player for the 2008 class.

Each year a school can bring in and actually have 25 new players sign a scholarship for the upcoming season. Only if there is aloted room that will not exceed 85 max sholarship players on the roster. So not every year can a team give 25 scholarships because that would put them at 100, which is 15 above the limit. We ran into this at UA. We were able to clear the roster to get under the 85 limit, but were still only able to offer 22 scholarships for incoming players and had to grayshirt three. All three will be backcounted to the 2009 class.

As Sab has said you can backcount 2 players, so if the coaches feel they have room to add 25 more scholarship players to the 2010 class UT will commit 27 scholarships this year to incoming players. Yes they can sign 3 more than that if they want, but might not. They also might not give out 27 scholarships because that will be a huge chunk of the 85 scholarships used for one class. Add that to the 23 UT had come in for the 2009 class and 2 classes have used 50 schoalrships. Which means the 2011 and 2012 will only have 35 scholarships, about 17 for each class to give out.

So yes it is nice to speculate how many more the school might sign, but just because the numbers are there does not mean they will. A huge class this year could hurt the next two years.
 
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#115
#115
I-CUP Insider said:
Ok, this is how I'm breaking it down:

22 players in the 2009 class (per rivals' board) -James Green + Lamaison = 22 in the class of 2009

- 3 early enrollees going to the 2008 class (from what I've read Sykes, Williams, and Mitchell-Thornton) = 19 scholarships used in 2009.

25-19 = 6 unused scholarships from the 2009 class to back-count on top of the 25 that we're allotted in 2010 = 31

Daniel hood is on the rivals board, but for some reason they're only listing 22 players and I don't know who's missing. With that said, where am I messing up?
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Montori Hughes is a true Frosh and is not listed on rivals.
 
#116
#116
Also remember if any player transfer in like the TE from Okla St. they will have to sit out ayear but will countin next years class. I am not sure if you have anybody coming in.
 
#119
#119
Yeah, Montori - ok, that's what I thought.

"I believe a player that graduates in Dec. their remaining award can be assigned to an early enrollee. They are not backcounted they just become a part of the 85 max, unless their is room to backcount."

"So if three returning players receive scholarships for the 2009 season and leave the team, during the season or the spring after the season a school can not back count into those spots."

Thanks for the info Tidewarrior. This is what I wanted to know. But the way you're wording it does make it sound a little contradictory, though.
 
#121
#121
Voodoomonkey said:
So, if this is true, this opens up lots of new opportunities for this class. Does this add any chance at us taking a 2nd QB in this class?
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Without a doubt. And Vader is exactly right as far as my understanding goes. I've been trying to figure out just how many guys we can take and thats pretty much what I was thinking-right around 30. These rules are SO freakin' confusing now.
 
#122
#122
I am sure Coach O has a plan. We just need to be patient. They may only sign 28 but could sign up to 30. I think they will decide based on next year's talent.
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#123
#123
i think we should probably offer Cam Newton... I cant believe i am saying it but if we had a qb today we win.... i didnt think we should but we need someone who can step in a be decent at least.
 
#124
#124
This is directly from the NCAA and is sent out each year to the school's compliance office and the coaches. This is the item coaches are required to know to become certified so they can recruit student prospects.

This is in regards to scholarship limits both annually and total:

15.02.3 Counter. A “counter” is an individual who is receiving institutional financial aid that is countable
against the aid limitations in a sport.

15.02.3.1 Initial Counter. [FBS/FCS] An “initial counter” is a counter who is receiving countable financial
aid in a sport for the first time. (See Bylaw 15.5.6.3 in football for instances in which the institution is permitted
to defer the counting of such financial aid until the following academic year.)

15.5.6.1 Bowl Subdivision Football. [FBS] There shall be an annual limit of 25 on the number of initial
counters (per Bylaw 15.02.3.1) and an annual limit of 85 on the total number of counters (including initial
counters) in football at each institution.

These are about how they back count:

15.5.6.3.2 Recruited Student-Athlete Entering after Fall Term, Aided in First Year. [FBS/FCS] A
student-athlete recruited by the awarding institution who enters after the first term of the academic year and
immediately receives institutional financial aid (based in any degree on athletics ability) shall be an initial
counter for either the current academic year (if the institution’s annual limit has not been reached) or the
next academic year. The student-athlete shall be included in the institution’s total counter limit during the
academic year in which the aid was first received.

15.5.6.3.5 Midyear Replacement. [FBS/FCS] A counter who graduates at midyear or who graduates
during the previous academic year (including summer) may be replaced by an initial counter, who shall be
counted against the initial limit for the following academic year, or by a student-athlete who was an initial
counter in a previous academic year and is returning to the institution after time spent on active duty in
the armed services or on an official church mission. In bowl subdivision football, an institution may use the
midyear replacement exception only if it previously has provided financial aid during that academic year to
the maximum number of overall counters (85 total counters). In championship subdivision football, an institution
may use the midyear replacement exception only if it previously has provided financial aid during
that academic year that equals the maximum number of overall equivalencies or overall counters.

15.5.6.4.1 Voluntary Withdrawal. An institution may replace a counter who voluntarily withdraws
from the football team by providing the financial aid to another student who already has enrolled in the
institution and is a member of the football squad. For this replacement to occur, the counter must withdraw
prior to the first day of classes or before the first game of the season, whichever is earlier, and provide
the institution with a signed statement releasing the institution from its obligation to provide institutional
financial aid and verifying the voluntary nature of the withdrawal. The institution may immediately (beginning
with the fall term) award the financial aid to a student-athlete who has been a member of the team for
at least one academic year and has not previously received athletically related financial aid. A student-athlete
who has not been a member of the team for at least one academic year may not receive the financial aid
during the fall term, but may receive it in a following term

http://www.ncaapublications.com/Uploads/PDF/D1_Manual9d74a0b2-d10d-4587-8902-b0c781e128ae.pdf
 
#125
#125
Hence when the '09 practice began UT had 79 or 80 players on scholarship and had only signed and admitted about 20 into school therefore can backcount 5 to the '09 class and add them to the 25 for the '10 class. This also assumes they have 25 scholarship players leaving the program so as to not violate the 85 limit rule in August of '10.
 
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