I have a question for some of the Political forum regulars....

[TennTradition]

Didn't he teach us to pray "Our father, who art in heaven...?" Weren't we all the children of God, according to him? He could have not been the literal son of God, and never lied. He could have just been misunderstood. Of course, that would mean there was no immaculate conception and all that. But that doesn't seem to be that big of a stretch for that to not be true, since young couples have been trying to play that card forever.

Are you familiar with the Gnostics? They had a very different take on Christianity, but were wiped out as soon as the mainstream Catholic Church came into power. Funny, that.

Tisk, tisk, IP. You're confusing the virgin birth with the immaculate conception.

 

[IPorange]

Tisk, tisk, IP. You're confusing the virgin birth with the immaculate conception.

Ya, I just realized that last post.

 

[CSpindizzy]

I meant the virginal birth thing, my bad. It's been awhile on those terms.

The gnostics and their literature were virtually wiped out in the 5th century. That isn't my opinion, that is historical fact. There are new "gnostics" and "gnostic reawakenings," but the original movement was nuked by the newly Christian Romans.


I am not going to play the 20 questions game with you in this thread, fyi. I know you don't like having to ever stand on anything and only attack. I won't just go in circles and circles with you on this.

I'm making a stand on this. Not sure where that came from. First of all, "gnostics" weren't some unified group. There was no unified literature or leaders or groups. They were not wiped out then. THAT is historical fact. Not sure where you got your info but I'd be happy to let you borrow about 30 books on the subject all from very recognized scholars.

Not going in circles. Just pointing out inaccurate historical statements.

 

[IPorange]

If you have 30 books on the subject, then you are just being an ass. You know what I am talking about. Most of their works were destroyed, they were heavily persecuted and driven underground by the Romans, and for the most part completely stamped out.

 

[OrangeEmpire]

Not that I care.................. but why it is surprising that he has 30 books on the subject.

 

[lumberjack4]

Tisk, tisk, IP. You're confusing the virgin birth with the immaculate conception.

I always thought it was the Immaculate Reception. Touchdown Jesus!

 

[CSpindizzy]

If you have 30 books on the subject, then you are just being an ass. You know what I am talking about. Most of their works were destroyed, they were heavily persecuted and driven underground by the Romans, and for the most part completely stamped out.

I don't know what you're talking about because what you've said is wrong. Gnostics were not one group. They were literally all over the map at this time. The Christian world was split and dealing with invasions. Gnostics were from Spain and Britain all the way to the Indian subcontinent, into Asia, and into Africa. While there was persecution they were in no way stamped out even in a majority or their works wiped out. The Romans did not have control over all of these areas to be able to achieve this.

 

[IPorange]

I can't link books, but if you just enter it into google (or anyone who is reading this thread and curious) you'll see that the consensus is that they were heavily persecuted and only one group has persisted continuously since the 1st century. It has 15,000 members right now.

Seems like they were nearly wiped out to me. Why did so many of the gnostic books have to be "rediscovered?"

 

[gsvol]

Fair enough.

Jefferson was deist.

There, are we all happy now?

No jefferson was a Christian, according to his own word.

Do you feel it?

I just got the warm fuzzies.

You two should get a room, you deserve one another.

Great, so you'll quit discrediting the overwhelming scientific evidence for evolution, and the geologic age of the Earth. Glad that is settled.

The Church persecuted the crap out of those medieval and Renaissance scientists, Christian or not, for going against the then-important dogma of the Christianity, such as Earth being the center of the universe. That seems silly now because of it's anachronism, but it is no different than people denying evolution or the geologic age of the Earth now. No different at all.

Well you speak of only one branch of Christianity that had been drawn into politics and temporal power.

What if the word of God is true and that there no beginning, no end, it just is??

hard to get sarcasm when you don't live in the real world huh gs?

Actutally I was going along with your joke cracker.

If you ever want to get things real between me and thee, you let me be the first to know.

Here is a copy of Thomas Jefferson's koran being used in a recent offical ceremony.

Barrack Hussein Obama is soooo Christian that...

* The Pope bows to HIM when he comes in the room.
* He sleeps in a manger.
* Runs ten miles carrying a cross every day.

 

[gsvol]

I always thought it was the Immaculate Reception. Touchdown Jesus!

Dropkick me Jesus.

A funny story about the Miracle at South Bend, it was the end of the game in which Tennesse had overcome all odds to lead near the end of the game but ND had one more chance to win by kicking a FG.

They said Johnny turned to a trainer saying he couldn't bear to watch, was it good?

The trainer supposedly replied; "I couldn't bear to watch either but touchdown Jesus was waving 'no good.'"

 

[golfballs]

No jefferson was a Christian, according to his own word.

He was raised an Anglican, but according to his own professed beliefs, I would have a hard time calling him a Christian. Believing in the divinity of Christ is kind of a big deal.

 

[gsvol]

I can't link books, but if you just enter it into google (or anyone who is reading this thread and curious) you'll see that the consensus is that they were heavily persecuted and only one group has persisted continuously since the 1st century. It has 15,000 members right now.

Seems like they were nearly wiped out to me. Why did so many of the gnostic books have to be "rediscovered?"

Nothing personal ip but sometimes your ignorance is almost overwhelming.

Christian groups persisting since the first century:

The Armenian Church, there is an Armenian quarter in Jersalem today as we speak.

The Coptics of Egypt have persisted since the first century.

The Ethiopian Church has persisted since the first century and claim to be in possession of the Jewish Ark of the Covenant.

Baptists have persisted since the first century by way of the Armenian Church.

The Assyrian Church has persisted since the first century, although they have probably experienced more oppression by the satanic muslims than any other branch of Christianity.

The Maronites of Lebanon date back to the first century.

Then there is the Eastern Orthodox Church which branched off from the Roman Catholic Church.

Then you have all the Protestant Churches which can date back to the first century, although they broke off from the Catholic Church, still they claim to believe in the original teachings of Jesus.

That isn't a complete list but still, your concept leaves much to be desired in the way of the big picture.

 

[DinkinFlicka]

Your 2 cents is so typical of Americans, espeically young Americans today that it's difficult to comprehend.

Approximately ten million Christians were slaughtered in the name of islamic jihad during the twentieth century, how do you compare that with Christian violence during the twentieth century??

Ugh, GS... it would be so much more pleasant to debate with you if you weren't such a condescending prlck about opposing views.

1. All I stated was that all major religions have shown signs of violence. TRUE.

2. Religion has a stake in just about every factor in our day to day lives. TRUE.

Why you chose to respond with how my atheist opinion (this already lumps me in only 14% of America, and ~7.5% of Americans under the age of 30) is so much like the rest of young America (if by rest you mean less than 8%), I will never know... except to simply reinforce the validity of your opinion by lumping me into a group.

(Uh oh!)

Now if you disagree with my views on the church, then that must mean you think the church is good for any given religion, which could possibly mean you need a congregation to feel secure... which is too laughable, even for you. So please elaborate on your points, because I'm not sure which facets of my first post you're halfheartedly assaulting.

You compare a few abortion clinic bombings over an extended period with 10,000+ violent muslim jihadist attacks, just since 9/11????

Sort of comparing one lady bug to a plague of locusts.

Wiccanpedia is for morons anyway.

I never compared anything. I was just refuting one poster's point that Christianity isn't known for any violent subgroups.

What you say in the first sentence is true, but this is a time of Muslim violence. The Christians had the inquisition. Now the Muslims (the extremist sects anyway) have this post-millenia jihad going on.

I'm perfectly aware Wikipedia (how do you correlate Wiccans with a bunk online encyclopedia? Is it just because it's another belief system that isn't Christian? Your sense of humor is kinda strange) isn't a very credible source. Why don't you take the initiative to google those groups since you, unlike myself, have no problem with nursing a post for 20 minutes at a time.

 

[OrangeEmpire]

Cat fight!

 

[CSpindizzy]

I can't link books, but if you just enter it into google (or anyone who is reading this thread and curious) you'll see that the consensus is that they were heavily persecuted and only one group has persisted continuously since the 1st century. It has 15,000 members right now.

Seems like they were nearly wiped out to me. Why did so many of the gnostic books have to be "rediscovered?"

Heavily persecuted and wiped out are two different things. Again, there is not a 'group'. There were no consistencies in beliefs and they were scattered all over the known world of the time. Some of them morphed into 'groups' for benefit of having a united presence living together. But as I said, if there were gnostics living in areas such as modern India or even well into Asia, we're talking beyond the Roman world that you originally mentioned.

What group are you referring to that is the only one surviving since the first century?

 

[gsvol]

He was raised an Anglican, but according to his own professed beliefs, I would have a hard time calling him a Christian. Believing in the divinity of Christ is kind of a big deal.

In a letter to an intimate friend TJ did profess to believe in the diety of Jesus Christ.

His problem was that historically and even among his contemporaries, some religious leaders wanted an undue authority over the political process.

 

[tigervol9802]

In a letter to an intimate friend TJ did profess to believe in the diety of Jesus Christ.

His problem was that historically and even among his contemporaries, some religious leaders wanted an undue authority over the political process.

I have never heard this before in my life.

 

[gsvol]

Ugh, GS... it would be so much more pleasant to debate with you if you weren't such a condescending prlck about opposing views.

File 13 materiel.

1. All I stated was that all major religions have shown signs of violence. TRUE.

But to compare the footprints of a mouse to the rusults of an elephant herd stampede through your corn patch is about as ludicrous a comparison as one can make.

Such is your absurdity of your statement.

2. Religion has a stake in just about every factor in our day to day lives. TRUE.

Why you chose to respond with how my atheist opinion (this already lumps me in only 14% of America, and ~7.5% of Americans under the age of 30) is so much like the rest of young America (if by rest you mean less than 8%), I will never know... except to simply reinforce the validity of your opinion by lumping me into a group.

Statistics, smatistics, why don't you just spit out what you are trying to say??

Now if you disagree with my views on the church, then that must mean you think the church is good for any given religion, which could possibly mean you need a congregation to feel secure... which is too laughable, even for you. So please elaborate on your points, because I'm not sure which facets of my first post you're halfheartedly assaulting.

You want elaboration??

I rarely attend any church.

There is absolutely nothing halfhearted about anything I have to say.

I never compared anything. I was just refuting one poster's point that Christianity isn't known for any violent subgroups.

Maybe you should do some comparisons, for your own good.

Give me a comparisons of known violent Christian subgroups, vis a vis violent known muslim subgroups.

You might just get an epiphany of some sort.

What you say in the first sentence is true, but this is a time of Muslim violence. The Christians had the inquisition. Now the Muslims (the extremist sects anyway) have this post-millenia jihad going on.

There have been 1,400 years of muslim violence, the only times it has abated has been when it has been met with equal or more violence, there is no denying that fact.

The Christian inquisition had to do with the then recent eviction of muslims from the Iberian penensula and the muslim practice of taqiyya, or lying to deceive the infidel, it is permitted for a muslim to profess to be a Christian if he indeed is practicing jihad for islam, as out current teleprompter in chief is doing.

BTW, the muslims still call the Iberian penensula, 'al Andalusa' and opperate under the islamic pretext of 'once conquered, always conquered,' and consider Spain and Portugal to be part of the world of al islam.

Once again, read posts # 276 and 278.

I'm perfectly aware Wikipedia (how do you correlate Wiccans with a bunk online encyclopedia? Is it just because it's another belief system that isn't Christian? Your sense of humor is kinda strange) isn't a very credible source. Why don't you take the initiative to google those groups since you, unlike myself, have no problem with nursing a post for 20 minutes at a time.

Anyone can write anything on wiccanpedia, for instance the publisher of the Nashville Tennessean had a profile up for several months that claimed he was compicit in the JFK assassination.

As much as I dislike Siegenthaler, that was ludicrous.

YOUR COMPARISON OF ISLAM AND CHRISTIANITY IS JUST TOO STUPID FOR WORDS!!!

Let's start with a comparison between Jesus and muhammed.

Jesus was a very literate educated man.

muhammed was an illiterate who couldn't even sign his own name.

Jesus taught spiritual principles with enternal significance.

muhammed taught immediate gratification through murder, robbery, rape and intimidation.

That list can go on for quite a while, Christianity and islam have nothing in common.

 

[gsvol]

I have never heard this before in my life.

Believe me that is true.

It took me a lot of research to come up with that but I did and posted it here on this forum.

I'm thinking I had that recorded on a computer that's now in the trash heap.

When I come up with it again, and I will, you will be the first I inform.

Read closely.

 

[sjt18]

A Christian by definition is or is trying to become Christ-like. The NT defines how to do that. The NT does not allow for violence in the name of Christ... but rather commands just the opposite. Christianity and violence in the name of Christianity are mutually exclusive.

When someone commits violence as a supposed "Christian" act then they define themselves as "Non-Christian".

The same is not true of Islam. Their scriptures certainly allow for and many believe command violence against infidels who resist the spreading domination of Islam.

 

[rjd970]

I love these threads.

First we talk about how it is organized religion that is bad, but not all muslims and christians are bad.

Then we all explain the nuances between deist, atheist, agnostic, and believer.

Then we move into the obligatory quote battle.

Next is the predictable evolution debate.

...and we are still waiting on the "where morality comes from" argument to take hold.

I'm an atheist, I see no evidence for the existence of God or a creator of any kind. As it happens, I am also a non-astrologer, but I don't seem to have to clarify that with a specific descriptor. Religion, in my view, is nothing more than a mechanism others use to assign self-worth and significance in an otherwise insignificant world. This doesn't mean I don't have morals, I just don't need them dictated to me by a book or religious authority.

In short, I view religion, organized or not, as a completely bogus and lazy way to view the world. I'm not going to change anybody else's mind, and nobody else (as of yet) has presented any kind of evidence that would demand I change mine.

 

[BeecherVol]

I love these threads.

First we talk about how it is organized religion that is bad, but not all muslims and christians are bad.

Then we all explain the nuances between deist, atheist, agnostic, and believer.

Then we move into the obligatory quote battle.

Next is the predictable evolution debate.

...and we are still waiting on the "where morality comes from" argument to take hold.

I'm an atheist, I see no evidence for the existence of God or a creator of any kind. As it happens, I am also a non-astrologer, but I don't seem to have to clarify that with a specific descriptor. Religion, in my view, is nothing more than a mechanism others use to assign self-worth and significance in an otherwise insignificant world. This doesn't mean I don't have morals, I just don't need them dictated to me by a book or religious authority.

In short, I view religion, organized or not, as a completely bogus and lazy way to view the world. I'm not going to change anybody else's mind, and nobody else (as of yet) has presented any kind of evidence that would demand I change mine.

Thats an interesting statement.

You and I have had discussions in the passed about such topics, and we both have very different opinions/beliefs on this as a whole. This is not a loaded question by any means, just curious. Do you feel like you need to change my mind? You have a solid understanding of the christian faith, and how it works. You understand why christians talk to non believers about the subject.

 

[rjd970]

No, I don't feel the need to change anybody's mind. But when I see a position being stated that doesn't make sense to me then, just like with politics, I will debate it. I suspect this is why the religion topic gets brought up in here so often. People are generally passionate about this and don't like to be told they are wrong.

I guess you could say I don't expect to change anybody to my position anymore than I would expect to convert a republican or democrat.

 

[BeecherVol]

No, I don't feel the need to change anybody's mind. But when I see a position being stated that doesn't make sense to me then, just like with politics, I will debate it. I suspect this is why the religion topic gets brought up in here so often. People are generally passionate about this and don't like to be told they are wrong.

I guess you could say I don't expect to change anybody to my position anymore than I would expect to convert a republican or democrat.

This would be easier in many cases.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

I see some of you that get into a discussion about faith/religion, and yet, you don't have a stake in either. How can you even argue for or against something you don't believe in yourself?? What does it matter to you, other to just have an opinion or try to question another's faith/religion??

I mean, the people in this forum that actually have a relationship with Jesus Christ have a stake in this. We are being told that we have to keep our mouths shut because we should be tolerant, but in all actuality, we are just being told that we aren't the current and latest religious fad and need to let others come before our wants and needs in the political world.

I'm going to tell you this much, if Islam has it's way over here in the West, this country is going to get torn down from the inside out. Christians, atheists, and agnostics alike are going to be put in a VERY bad place, IF our government continues to preach tolerance/freedom of religion in the case of Islam. I mean, if people can't see that the Taliban doesn't want our education, our medicine, our technology, and just wants to kill us, then this country is in for truly desperate times.

I have typically stayed out from the spotlight in this whole mess, but they are even trying to build one less than a mile from our church, so I figured it's time for me to speak out. These people, while most here claim to be peaceful and most are, come from a VERY violent background. Their Mideast counterparts live only to see us die and be killed in the name of Muhammad. I've NEVER, NOT ONCE, known anyone to actually kill in the name of Jesus Christ, and if anyone ever has, they weren't even Christian to begin with. Our Scripture is VERY forthright about violence, it DOES NOT condone it in any, way, shape, or form. Now, if you are in the military, you can be in the military and still be a Godly man or woman. Just don't go killing in the name of God or Jesus.

I really hope some of you understand what you are telling us Christians, because the past couple of days have really opened my eyes to what some of you believe and how quick you are to cast stones at us, because you think we aren't "tolerant". We have been the major faith based religion for the entire time that this country has been established. Many of our ancestors who built this country up from the ground level were Christians, but not all obviously. I just hope you know that our people have bled overseas to protect the rights of everyone over here, my wife included, and yet the government allows those same people we fight over there to claim peacefulness over here and still build their places of worship that promotes something completely different than what they are personally standing for over here.

I really hope that one of these days, our government stands up and actually protects the people from a theology as dangerous as Islam, but unfortunately our country is only a little over 200 years old, and will have MANY growing pains as it gets more mature.

God Bless. :hi:

I didn't care to vote in the last presidential election. I guess I have no stake in anything political and shouldn't discuss it, either? :unsure: