If we go 4 - 8 do we fire Butch? (merged)

[sjt18]

Lol so you wouldn't give Fulmer a 3rd chance out of 16 seasons.

But y'all were fine with giving Dooley 3 chances out of 3 seasons.







Makes sense

Dooley didn't create the problems. He just failed to fix them. Fulmer CAUSED the decline in the program beginning sometime around 2001 or 2002. I would say it began when Sanders was hired and continued because Fulmer was too proud to admit it was a bad hire and fire Sanders. He was finally forced to after Sanders squandered one of the most talented offensive units UT has every had in 2005.

So yes, it does make sense. No one... and I mean NO ONE was going to take the mess that existed in 2010 and turn it around in two seasons. Dooley's rope was short and he reached it last fall. But it would have been longer if he'd shown any signs of life at all. I think USCe should have cost him his job. However all indications are that Hart was going to keep him if he made a bowl.


There is a HUGE difference between giving a guy really two chances to turn a mess of his own creation around and giving a guy one chance to turnaround a phenomenal mess that he had no part in creating.

 

[sjt18]

I'm trying to figure out how SMH ridiculous this sounds given that we have endured the worst three years of Tennessee football in over 100 years.

We will have to disagree on this one.

You really can't figure out why three consecutive busted recruiting classes from 2007-2009 created a void of talent and experience on the roster that directly contributed to the poor results of 2009-2011? In fact, it all but made them a foregone conclusion. Really? Come on. It really isn't hard at all if you'll drop that blame Dooley for everything bias.

Dooley got his one shot. He had two years to recruit and develop players then one year to show some sign that he could actually compete in the SEC. He failed terribly.

His failure does NOT change the fact that the process/plan was sound OR that he was in a very deep hole from the start that he was VERY unlikely to survive.

I CONSISTENTLY said from the time he was hired that he HAD to prove something in year 3 or he was gone. I CONSISTENTLY said that his odds for surviving were well under 50% until last fall. I felt like that team should have been good enough to keep him employed. He found a way to screw it up... and was rightly fired.

 

[sjt18]

BTW, I also said that there were two ways Dooley could be a successful hire. One, he could pull off the unlikely and win games. Two, he could rebuild the roster and hand it off to the next guy giving him a chance to win.

He failed on one. I think he succeeded somewhat on two but we will begin to see this fall.

 

[sjt18]

I called it fantasy to believe we have simply been "treading water" since the firing when we've endured the worst three years of Tennessee football in a century. That is a no-brainer. This thread is proof - a tongue-in-cheek post went epic because of our traumatized fan base (and we have the right to be traumatized).

I am nowhere close to "traumatized". Did someone else say the program had been treading water? I know I didn't. It fell into a hole and has not completely climbed out yet. Still being in the hole... does not mean you aren't closer to getting out than you were though.

I've also pointed out that Kiffin actually inherited a truckload of talent, underachieved with it, and did more damage than the Tasmanian Devil in Cracker Barrel while he was on the Hill. Again, no brainer, and no Fulmer.

I can't stand Kiffin. He is a disloyal, selfish, punk. But by no stretch did he inherit a "truckload of talent". He had some good seniors but most had NEVER performed. Hardesty was a career injury. Moore nor Jones was considered "elite" when Kiffin arrived. He was forced to start two 265 walk-ons on the OL. He inherited one SEC worthy DT.

I would actually agree that he underperformed the talent by not beating Auburn. However the improvements on the field were undeniable. Both Bama and UF were competitive for the first time in awhile. He actually outcoached both Meyer and Saban.

BUT... more importantly, most of that supposed "truckload" were seniors.

 

[NashVol11]

Are you serious? This is the only thread Eddie Vol Gibbs starts. Title is irrelevant.

It's Gibbs again? Okay, now it makes sense.

 

[NashVol11]

I can't stand Kiffin. He is a disloyal, selfish, punk. But by no stretch did he inherit a "truckload of talent". He had some good seniors but most had NEVER performed. Hardesty was a career injury. Moore nor Jones was considered "elite" when Kiffin arrived. He was forced to start two 265 walk-ons on the OL. He inherited one SEC worthy DT.

I would actually agree that he underperformed the talent by not beating Auburn. However the improvements on the field were undeniable. Both Bama and UF were competitive for the first time in awhile. He actually outcoached both Meyer and Saban.

hmy:

 

[tvolsfan]

Lol so you wouldn't give Fulmer a 3rd chance out of 16 seasons.

But y'all were fine with giving Dooley 3 chances out of 3 seasons.


Makes sense

Dooley shouldn't have gotten anything. We just weren't really in position to fire him until year three.

 

[sjt18]

Dooley got what every hire will have to get barring some scandal if UT is ever going to climb back to the top. You might as well get used to the fact that UT could go through a series of coaches that last 3 or 4 years before finding the right one.

Two years isn't enough time to evaluate a coach good or bad and especially when the roster was as bad as it was in '10. Dooley took a shot. He risked his career and lost on the hope that he could beat very long odds.

 

[daniel3417]

Do we fire Butch if he loses 8?

The correct answer is no.

This thread can be closed.

 

[Oskie Volum]

The ignorance of people on why Dooley was the best hire at the time baffles me. Cbj, sumlin, and majority of coaches would not have been able to do any better in less than 3 seasons. The program/AD was a mess and needed a guy to come in and rebuild it. Rebuilding wasn't only on the football field for Dooley like CBJs situation. Dealing with the NCAA on campus (for goodness sake the NCAA still penalized us this past season for Kiffin) etc. A regular coach couldnt handle that. The son of a hof SEC coach, lawyer, with both HC and AD experience, and with recruiting connection in the SEC had a lot more upside at that time than anyone. It really isn't that difficult to understand.

Anyone that thinks Dooley got a fair shot is just ridiculous. He got just over 2 seasons before this fan base "cut its nose off to spite it's face" with the Gruden crap. I love how so many bash Dooley for being incompetent or stupid when they fell for the Gruden crap. Y'all need to look into the mirror. Just sayin...

 

[Eddie Vol Halen]

Anyone that thinks Dooley got a fair shot is just ridiculous. He got just over 2 seasons before this fan base "cut its nose off to spite it's face" with the Gruden crap. I love how so many bash Dooley for being incompetent or stupid when they fell for the Gruden crap. Y'all need to look into the mirror. Just sayin...

Gruden was in play. Why it fell over is a question for one Dave Hart.

Dooley exposed himself at Showergate, and it went downhill from there. Dooley should have been left at the curb after the KY debacle.

We could have taken a stalk of bamboo, put a visor on it and a Spurrier mask, stuck it on the sidelines, called it Head Coach, and won seven games last year.

Or we could have made the Orange Dog interim defensive coordinator. Actually, that would have been the most impressive bit of moxie Dools would have shown as UTHFC.

 

[tm3]

Lol so you wouldn't give Fulmer a 3rd chance out of 16 seasons.

But y'all were fine with giving Dooley 3 chances out of 3 seasons.

Fulmer got 3 chances (years) too many. he should have been fired right after the home loss to Vandy.

Dooley should have been fired right after the botched abortion in Lexington. that he should have never been hired goes without saying.

if CBJ and the greatest staff in america are truly talented, they should be able to win more than 4 games this year. if they can't, and one argues against firing, then what # of wins in 2013 should generate a pink slip? 3? 2? 1? 0?

would anyone actually argue that going winless would merit CBJ being given another year (i think i know the answer)?

 

[Oskie Volum]

Gruden was in play. Why it fell over is a question for one Dave Hart.

Dooley exposed himself at Showergate, and it went downhill from there. Dooley should have been left at the curb after the KY debacle.

We could have taken a stalk of bamboo, put a visor on it and a Spurrier mask, stuck it on the sidelines, called it Head Coach, and won seven games last year.

Or we could have made the Orange Dog interim defensive coordinator. Actually, that would have been the most impressive bit of moxie Dools would have shown as UTHFC.

I'm sure he was in the mix and we were a split second away :good!: Doesnt change the fact this fanbase pretty told Dooley and players that it didn't support them no matter how hard they worked. If I have any issue with hart is that he didn't come out a squash it fast, or at all. At least in the public eye. This hurt the season more than anyone will give it credit.

Im sure you have no clue or understanding what the bamboo analogy meant yet you bash it.

 

[sjt18]

Fulmer got 3 chances (years) too many. he should have been fired right after the home loss to Vandy.

Dooley should have been fired right after the botched abortion in Lexington. that he should have never been hired goes without saying.

if CBJ and the greatest staff in america are truly talented, they should be able to win more than 4 games this year. if they can't, and one argues against firing, then what # of wins in 2013 should generate a pink slip? 3? 2? 1? 0?

would anyone actually argue that going winless would merit CBJ being given another year (i think i know the answer)?

Good thing you aren't in charge. You pull the trigger that fast and you'll never find the right coach. The fact is that even the best will stumble sometime... Like Saban did with ULM.

 

[sjt18]

The ignorance of people on why Dooley was the best hire at the time baffles me. Cbj, sumlin, and majority of coaches would not have been able to do any better in less than 3 seasons. The program/AD was a mess and needed a guy to come in and rebuild it. Rebuilding wasn't only on the football field for Dooley like CBJs situation. Dealing with the NCAA on campus (for goodness sake the NCAA still penalized us this past season for Kiffin) etc. A regular coach couldnt handle that. The son of a hof SEC coach, lawyer, with both HC and AD experience, and with recruiting connection in the SEC had a lot more upside at that time than anyone. It really isn't that difficult to understand.

Anyone that thinks Dooley got a fair shot is just ridiculous. He got just over 2 seasons before this fan base "cut its nose off to spite it's face" with the Gruden crap. I love how so many bash Dooley for being incompetent or stupid when they fell for the Gruden crap. Y'all need to look into the mirror. Just sayin...

I agree with much of what you say. But I do not think Dooley was treated unfairly. He had a team last fall that should have competed for the East. Instead, he lost to a pretty bad Mizzou team and was blown out by Vandy. He made things that should have been easy look hard and things that might have been a little difficult look downright impossible. Add that to the bad loss at UK... and it equals the end of the road. Even if he were a better coach than what showed or could have been successful if he were being hired now instead of then.... there are times when even good managers/coaches/leaders reach a point where there are too many bad relationships, too much mistrust, too many grudges, etc within an environment to overcome. I have seen it and experienced it. A clean break is the only thing that can work.

In the end, I think he leaves the program and roster with a stronger foundation than he inherited. Hopefully Jones can build on it.

 

[sjt18]

Gruden was in play. Why it fell over is a question for one Dave Hart.

Did you meet your girlfriend on line too? Is she a french model?

Just because something becomes an internet wildfire does not mean it is true. And truthfully, the only person who can answer it is the guy who said "no" to whatever offers/interests were floated his way.

 

[Oskie Volum]

I agree with much of what you say. But I do not think Dooley was treated unfairly. He had a team last fall that should have competed for the East. Instead, he lost to a pretty bad Mizzou team and was blown out by Vandy. He made things that should have been easy look hard and things that might have been a little difficult look downright impossible. Add that to the bad loss at UK... and it equals the end of the road. Even if he were a better coach than what showed or could have been successful if he were being hired now instead of then.... there are times when even good managers/coaches/leaders reach a point where there are too many bad relationships, too much mistrust, too many grudges, etc within an environment to overcome. I have seen it and experienced it. A clean break is the only thing that can work.

In the end, I think he leaves the program and roster with a stronger foundation than he inherited. Hopefully Jones can build on it.

We agree for sure on many things. As I think we have similar experiences. When I agree with the majority of the above about reasons "to part ways." I don't think, imho, he was given enough time. U use the Mizzou and Vandy games as ur examples but I think by then the Gruden talk had negatively engulfed the program. That was an undeserved gorilla on his, and the teams, back. If Hart had come out and tried to squash them then I may have a different opinion on the situation but his silence on the matter hurt the team. Heck even USCs AD Hayden came out in support of kif immediately after the ucla game. Everyone knows there is no love loss there.

I do agree with u that it was "time to goodbye," but I won't agree that he had a legit shot at being a HC and only an HC.
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[tm3]

Good thing you aren't in charge. You pull the trigger that fast and you'll never find the right coach. The fact is that even the best will stumble sometime... Like Saban did with ULM.

if you can't see the huge difference in coaching background between Saban and Fulmer and Dooley that preceded each's "stumble" then it's really good that you aren't in charge, although that lack of logic would fit right in with recent years' decisions in knoxville.

 

[Biopsyman]

When you don't win a lot at TN as the HC, you suddenly find another career

 

[sjt18]

if you can't see the huge difference in coaching background between Saban and Fulmer and Dooley that preceded each's "stumble" then it's really good that you aren't in charge, although that lack of logic would fit right in with recent years' decisions in knoxville.

That may matter before you hire them. The background is one factor but it would have been abjectly stupid to hire someone in the wake of Kiffin then fire them after struggling for two years with the roster they inherited. Dooley's first year was par and almost an overachievement had the LSU and UNC games not gone crazy.... one his responsibility but the other not.

It isn't a lack of "logic" at all. It is Leadership/Management 101. It is VERY basic that you give goals, resources, and a timeframe to perform when giving a leader a mission. The "illogical" approach would be to fail on any of those after hiring someone to a job. The illogical approach would be to behave like a kneejerk, unreasonable reactionary. You would have fired DD for failing to win games in the SEC with the weakest rosters UT has had since at least the 80's relative to the rest of the SEC.

The process used to get UT back to the top matters. Having the discipline to manage and lead correctly matters. You can't let whims and emotions toss you around like a boat in a storm. In a time when your emotions scream that you should abandon a disciplined, methodical approach... is the time you have to resist that impulse the most.

I do not know you well enough to know how old you are or what you do in life. But put yourself in a coach's shoes that is being hired to take over a program in the state UT was in 3 years ago. You KNOW you are about to endure 2 years where almost all of the good players on your roster are Fr and Sophs. Do you think being fired after those 2 years would be giving you a fair shot?

 

[sjt18]

We agree for sure on many things. As I think we have similar experiences. When I agree with the majority of the above about reasons "to part ways." I don't think, imho, he was given enough time. U use the Mizzou and Vandy games as ur examples but I think by then the Gruden talk had negatively engulfed the program. That was an undeserved gorilla on his, and the teams, back. If Hart had come out and tried to squash them then I may have a different opinion on the situation but his silence on the matter hurt the team. Heck even USCs AD Hayden came out in support of kif immediately after the ucla game. Everyone knows there is no love loss there.

I do agree with u that it was "time to goodbye," but I won't agree that he had a legit shot at being a HC and only an HC.
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I think it was way too far gone by that point. Hart wasn't in a position to tie his own hands. He did come out and make some positive statements a little earlier but Dooley didn't hold up his end.

Legit shot or not. Some of us realized his window was extremely small when he took the job. He was always going to get one shot at rebuilding the roster and proving he could win. UT simply was not at a point where a struggling coach (capable or not) could be given a long rope.

 

[tm3]

It is VERY basic that you give goals, resources, and a timeframe to perform when giving a leader a mission.

goals given? unknown

resources given? check

timeframe*? of course, but with an asterisk.

something you left out is *limits. any job i can think of has imposed limits -- you go beyond the limit, and you are out the door. for a tenured coach on a definite downtrend a losing season capped by a home loss to Candy exceeds the limit. for just about any coach but especially one performing like Fooley a loss to that KY team exceeds the limit.

it is scary to think that Fooley eventually only exceeded his limit by a finely coiffed hair -- had UT not mailed it in on Candy and sealed its 3rd losing season in a row (i still can't believe that i am saying that about UT), he and his band of idiots would still be on the hill.

your posts and thought processes are usually pretty reasonable. i hope that you are not now arguing that CBJ should be kept as coach even if he goes winless in 2013.

 

[Oskie Volum]

I think it was way too far gone by that point. Hart wasn't in a position to tie his own hands. He did come out and make some positive statements a little earlier but Dooley didn't hold up his end.

Legit shot or not. Some of us realized his window was extremely small when he took the job. He was always going to get one shot at rebuilding the roster and proving he could win. UT simply was not at a point where a struggling coach (capable or not) could be given a long rope.

I totally understand he wasn't given much of a rope and agree that's where I find fault with the situation. Why it drives me nuts that people come on here bashing the guy knowing the short rope he was given. Not reasonable amount of time and why he had a 5 mil buyout. Can't remember if CBJ got the same amount of buyout but that would be a huge mistake on Hart's side cause the situation at UT today doesn't merit that much.

To ur post about each parties responsibility to each other. I think many things were still pending to say he was able to get from behind the 8-ball. Heck he had to finish the new workout facilities, got to sell it in the future, but not actually got to use it like CBJ will be able to. This year would have been, Imo, his first real year without many issues off the field to clean up.

Btw - I was watching Hart closely to see if he came out in Dooley's defense. I don't remember anything worth the lick to help calm the wildfire it caused. The guy had a hot seat coming in, so iit needed to be a strong media push by Hart.

(new phone posted this before I could finish it. So why it was a mess)


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[99gator]

How some of you could defend Dooley after having a front row seat to his incompetence is beyond me.

Derek Dooley isn't a tool, he's the whole damn toolbox.

The direction of the program improved instantaneously with his dismissal.

 

[sjt18]

goals given? unknown

Not really. Hart and Dooley both said things in statements that clearly indicated that they had discussed goals and expectations. Now Hart's comments last fall make me think those targets were WAY too low... but that is a different matter.

resources given? check

timeframe*? of course, but with an asterisk.

The governing factor for the time frame could not be just "wins". It had to be the reasonable and minimum amount of time it would take a coach to take the roster that existed then recruit and develop enough good players to have a chance to win against the upper tier. That span regardless of any other factor was 3 years. And again, 3 consecutive recruiting classes dictated that coupled with the new recruiting restrictions. Ten years ago... you cut a bunch of guys and recruit a number of JUCO's. It was legal to recruit almost half of your roster in a single class... I think someone actually signed 35. You could take more risks on guys with marginal talent, grades, or character. The new limits make it much tougher to rebuild a program.

something you left out is *limits. any job i can think of has imposed limits -- you go beyond the limit, and you are out the door. for a tenured coach on a definite downtrend a losing season capped by a home loss to Candy exceeds the limit. for just about any coach but especially one performing like Fooley a loss to that KY team exceeds the limit.

UK was a bad loss. But it was NOT a step beyond the limit. UT was a beaten and battered team both physically and emotionally. UK played way above their heads. Every coach from Lord Saban on down loses games they should have won. Again, knee jerk reactions are no substitute for good management or a good plan/method/process.

it is scary to think that Fooley eventually only exceeded his limit by a finely coiffed hair -- had UT not mailed it in on Candy and sealed its 3rd losing season in a row (i still can't believe that i am saying that about UT), he and his band of idiots would still be on the hill.

This I agree with completely. Dooley had a roster that should have competed for the East. Hart probably felt some responsibility since it is likely IMO that he had as much or more to do with hiring Sunseri as Dooley did. There were times when I felt Dooley was trying to talk himself into being happy with the hire. So for the long run, it is probably best that UT lost to Vandy and Mizzou. I think either game would have preserved Dooley's job.

your posts and thought processes are usually pretty reasonable. i hope that you are not now arguing that CBJ should be kept as coach even if he goes winless in 2013.

Nope. I am arguing that you have to have a plan and process in place then stick to it if you want to go from bad performance to great. It is possible to get from bad to "good" without it... but not to "great".

I have consistently said that his firing should have been made and announced after USCe. That was his last chance to beat a team that mattered... and I really think they are on the lower limit of teams that "matter" for the return of UT to the top. Teams that matter include UF, Bama, LSU, and UGA with USCe a late appearance that likely won't last. Even UGA is a "semi-matters" win.

The season could have been finished by an interim. Dooley quit recruiting anyway no later than mid-season. A coaching search with much less Gruden drama could have been completed with an announcement following the last game if not before. The new coach could have had his staff selected if not announced and be ready to recruit the day after the season ended.

I think Hart's standard was too low which led him to a very poorly timed decision.