If we go 4 - 8 do we fire Butch? (merged)

[sjt18]

So, Dooley inherited a team that was good for 6 wins with a bad coach and 7-8 with a good one...and then left behind a team worthy of 6 wins with a bad coach and 7-8 with a good one. What a huge and significant improvement!

Hey, any time now you can stop being stupid and just look up the rosters for yourself. If you cannot see that the situation is better now than three years ago then there's no amount of logic or facts that will change your mind.

To your point... maybe I am being generous.

 

[sjt18]

Since you keep posturing rather than answering, I have to conclude that, if it were your decision, you would not fire CBJ after a winless 2013 and instead would rely on giving the "process" plenty of time to play out.

My expectations are that this team is better than six wins. Five or 6 wins would get him probation if I were his boss. Less would probably cause me to pull the plug because of who would have outcoached him to lose that many games.

The caveats to that could be margins of loss and who he beat. If he sneaks up to beat UGA, UF, or Bama but only totals 5 then maybe that gets him a longer leash.

UT gives plenty of time. UF and Bama give out pink slips. And who rules the SEC?

Please list the coaches those two schools have fired for not winning in less than 3 years over the past 25 years.

UT gave Dooley 3 years. Two to rebuild from the dumpster fire left by Kiffin and Fulmer then one to prove he could beat someone who mattered. He failed completely on that last point. I have absolutely no problem with how he was managed.

 

[sjt18]

No, I have plenty of animosity for Fulmer, Cheek, Martin, Haslam, and everyone else who played a role.

But giving Dooley a pass is crazy.

How have I given Dooley a pass? He was rightly fired. He had a tough challenge and failed to meet it. He leaves the roster and the program better than he found it.

I fail to understand how saying a Head Coach proved he could not COACH is giving him a "pass".

 

[MFJones]

He inherits good players who according to his own statements have bought in completely, If he does not win more than six then he's not the guy. He'll have a tougher time next year and even if he did have the talent to get UT back... he would need to do something incredible in 2015 to get the chance.

Not going to argue all your points. What I will say about your statement about inheriting good players is simply this. When we hired Jones, I was not thrilled to say the least. Not because I thought he was a bad coach but because be brought a totally different style offense. Although I do like his style offense, it presents some initial set back when trying to build upon the good talent (to your point) Dooley left behind. I told several of my other vol buddies that I personally had the patience to wade it out until Jones got the players he needed. HOWEVER, my concern was most fans (like yourself) would want an instant turn around based on the POINTS that you stated previously. The problem with your argument is that the current offense was recruited to run the pro-style offense. You are correct, our offensive line SHOUL be one of the best in the NCAA this year, but they are being tasked with a difficult situation, which is to become faster and more agile. They are going to have to get down the field fast, get back to the line of scrimmage fast, and do this all game long. Let me pose a hypothetical question. Could Chip Kelly have taken UT's offensive line this year and continued to win and put up points like he did in previous years? Most likely not because he recruited leaner, faster lineman.

All the arguments that you expressed in your previous post is what worries me the most about Vol fans. It is going to take him at least 2 years to get the appropriate players to run his offense effectively and efficiently, and BTW, if you haven't noticed, he's doing a pretty damn good job recruiting them thus far. Give the guy two years, and I believe we will get to 8-9 wins. By year three, I believe we will be competing for the eastern division title. But if your asking me to throw in the towel on Jones after this season with only 6 wins,,, no way bro. Unless Jones royally screws up this season, I will give him a pass on his first year. Things that I will be looking for in Jone's first season is:

• How the players respond to adversity.
• See our guys play a full 4 quarters.
• Seeing a team get better with every week (i.e. his offensive become more effective)
• Watching some of the freshman develop into solid players
• And to your point, watching a much improved defense.

 

[sjt18]

The OL he has right now is more athletic than the ones he had at Cincy and CMU. There could be other problems but UT's OL being athletic enough to run his scheme isn't one.

You don't have to worry about me. I am a fan and a hopeful fan. I will say my peace when /if I think it is time for him to go but won't harp on it. Your concern is valid though.

I said something very similar when many here were still honeymooning with Dooley. I told them that if he didn't do something within three years he'd have to go because fan criticism and cynicism would keep him on the hot seat preventing him from recruiting effectively.

The problem with YOUR theory is that if he can't do something with this roster then what does he do with next year's and perhaps the next? If six wins is great by your standard this year then what do you say about next year? 5? 4?

I think he can get and NEEDS 7+ wins this fall. If it is 6 then 5 then 6 again... then those impatient fans you're worried about will storm Neyland with pitchforks in hand. I don't think there's a way in the world he survives if his record is around .500 at the end of 3 years. By the end of year two in that scenario, the shine will be off his apple with recruits too. Right now, perception is favoring him. He's a positive, energetic guy selling his product very well. If he's 11-13 after his second season... that's not going to play with top recruits. He HAS to win some meaningful games. His chances are better this year than next.

BUT I do not think 6 is acceptable with this roster if he has the coaching ability to win at UT. It is as simple as that... nor do I think he will get the chance even if he does.

I also don't think any of this is lost on Jones. Some of his comments suggest that he knows the time is right now and not 4 years from now.

 

[Burger]

The OL he has right now is more athletic than the ones he had at Cincy and CMU. There could be other problems but UT's OL being athletic enough to run his scheme isn't one.

You don't have to worry about me. I am a fan and a hopeful fan. I will say my peace when /if I think it is time for him to go but won't harp on it. Your concern is valid though.

I said something very similar when many here were still honeymooning with Dooley. I told them that if he didn't do something within three years he'd have to go because fan criticism and cynicism would keep him on the hot seat preventing him from recruiting effectively.

The problem with YOUR theory is that if he can't do something with this roster then what does he do with next year's and perhaps the next? If six wins is great by your standard this year then what do you say about next year? 5? 4?

I think he can get and NEEDS 7+ wins this fall. If it is 6 then 5 then 6 again... then those impatient fans you're worried about will storm Neyland with pitchforks in hand. I don't think there's a way in the world he survives if his record is around .500 at the end of 3 years. By the end of year two in that scenario, the shine will be off his apple with recruits too. Right now, perception is favoring him. He's a positive, energetic guy selling his product very well. If he's 11-13 after his second season... that's not going to play with top recruits. He HAS to win some meaningful games. His chances are better this year than next.

BUT I do not think 6 is acceptable with this roster if he has the coaching ability to win at UT. It is as simple as that... nor do I think he will get the chance even if he does.

I also don't think any of this is lost on Jones. Some of his comments suggest that he knows the time is right now and not 4 years from now.

Our roster just isn't all that talented. We had the highest sack total of four, no returning productive receivers, and no experience at QB. I'm jumping up and down if we win 7, but 6 wins is optimistic with almost any head coach.

 

[MFJones]

The OL he has right now is more athletic than the ones he had at Cincy and CMU. There could be other problems but UT's OL being athletic enough to run his scheme isn't one.

Its not about all around athleticism. Take basketball for example. By most people's good judgement, Shaquille O'Neal was a better athlete than Derek Fisher when they played for the Lakers, but it didn't mean Phil Jackson wanted Shaq running the point position. Our guys maybe more athletic than the Bearcats OL from last year, but that doesn't make them better fit to successfully block in Jone's offensive system. Not trying to beat a dead horse here, but take a look at Oregon's and Cincinnati's OL's from last year. Except for 1-2 folks barely tipping over 300 lbs, all other lineman were closer to 280 and 290 lbs on Oregon's. None of Cincinnati's offensive lineman went over 300 lbs. This is not an accident. Chip Kelly and Jones didn't want their lineman any heavier. They wanted speed and quickness and guys that didn't get tired in their hurry-up.

Oregon Ducks two-deep offensive depth chart | OregonLive.com

Cincinnati Bearcats 2012 Team Player Roster - College Football - ESPN

We could argue all day long as to whether or not Jones should do better than 6 wins next year. I think he may very well win 8 and hope he can win more, but to debate me on this point about the offensive line brother is getting into silly season. We better hope Jones slows it down a bit for them this year or hope our OL comes into camp about 10-20 lbs lighter. I think the later is what Jones is probably pushing for... From some of the videos that I have seen thus far, he is running their asses off.

 

[WoodsmanVol]

Hambone, Kiffin, and Dooley deserve the full creative force of Vol fan ridicule for a generation or more.

To simply "let it go" not only demeans true fans, but puts these jokers at the same level as Bill Battle, which is actually wrong.

I have misgivings against all three of the above. I just see no need to repetitively spout hatred and spite on them. I for one, have better things to do with my life.
You may not believe in Him, but there's someone higher up who holds us accountable for our attitudes and how we CHOOSE to behave. When one demands to act hateful as opposed to trying to be a better human being, even He has to give up on them. I'm no better and very likely worse than a great many others, but want Him to give up on me because I insisted He do so. Carry on, it is your choice after all.

 

[orange parmejohn]

I have misgivings against all three of the above. I just see no need to repetitively spout hatred and spite on them. I for one, have better things to do with my life.
You may not believe in Him, but there's someone higher up who holds us accountable for our attitudes and how we CHOOSE to behave. When one demands to act hateful as opposed to trying to be a better human being, even He has to give up on them. I'm no better and very likely worse than a great many others, but want Him to give up on me because I insisted He do so. Carry on, it is your choice after all.

God gives up on no one, brother.

 

[WoodsmanVol]

God gives up on no one, brother.

Yes, He does. Even He gets fed up. It once took a mere human to change His mind: Exodus 32:7-14
Another time, a mere animal saved a stubborn man's life - Numbers 22:32-35. These are just two incidents where God just got fed up and was ready to lower the boom. Which He finally will do when time runs out on all humanity. Remember He said several times that He is a jealous God. He doesn't fool around when He's had it up to here with folks who knowingly and willingly persist in thumbing their nose at His instructions. Very patient yes, but there are times when even He says, "Enough!"

 

[Burger]

God gives up on no one, brother.

God gave up on me a long time ago sir.

 

[tm3]

posters here know the inside scoop on the Fooley hire, the inside scoop on Gruden, and even the inside scoop on God.

i'm impressed.

 

[sjt18]

If the OL is the problem this fall.... THEN Jones should be fired.

 

[sjt18]

Our roster just isn't all that talented. We had the highest sack total of four, no returning productive receivers, and no experience at QB. I'm jumping up and down if we win 7, but 6 wins is optimistic with almost any head coach.

That simply is not true. One of the most talented OL's in the country. SEC caliber DL's. Leading SEC tackler returns. Talent at every position if not depth. Six wins would be a clear indication that UT has hired an "average" coach who at best has gotten an "average" result from his roster. If you ever want to see UT at the top again it will take an above average coach.

If he's the right coach, he will find a way to win more than six games. There are six "should wins" on this schedule.

 

[Vol4life25]

God gave up on me a long time ago sir.

Or you gave up on him?

 

[Burger]

That simply is not true. One of the most talented OL's in the country. SEC caliber DL's. Leading SEC tackler returns. Talent at every position if not depth. Six wins would be a clear indication that UT has hired an "average" coach who at best has gotten an "average" result from his roster. If you ever want to see UT at the top again it will take an above average coach.

If he's the right coach, he will find a way to win more than six games. There are six "should wins" on this schedule.

Our players at wide out and qb are very inexperienced. Whoever starts at any of those positions will have no experience. We have two average backs in Neal and Lane. The offensive line is elite, but we have almost nothing behind any of these guys. If we get injuries, which we will, then were toast again.

We have no pass rushers as sentimorre lead with four last year. We have Couch and McCullers with hood and O'brien as back ups. AJ may be the best tackler, but Sapp is unproven, and maggitt is injury prone. I don't even want to look at the back ups. We have 3 good safeties in McNeil, Randolp, and Moore. We have only one decent corner in Coleman. We don't have SEC depth yet. Where would you rank our starters with other teams?

 

[Burger]

Or you gave up on him?

Nah, he's got millions of other people to take care of.

 

[Easttnken]

Nah, he's got millions of other people to take care of.

Luke 15 : 4-7...shepherd has 100 sheep and one is lost. He would leave the 90 and 9 to go into the wilderness until it was found. Then he would call his friends and celebrate that the one lost sheep was found.

Luke 15: 11-32 ...The prodigal son returns to his fathers house...

Maybe he hasn't given up completely after all.

 

[Burger]

Luke 15 : 4-7...shepherd has 100 sheep and one is lost. He would leave the 90 and 9 to go into the wilderness until it was found. Then he would call his friends and celebrate that the one lost sheep was found.

Luke 15: 11-32 ...The prodigal son returns to his fathers house...

Maybe he hasn't given up completely after all.

I'm the black sheep that the Shepard forgot about.

 

[sjt18]

Our players at wide out and qb are very inexperienced.

Worley has more real game experience than most new starting QB's. WR has little experience but it is also one of the two positions where experience matters least. The other being RB.

Whoever starts at any of those positions will have no experience.

Worley is the likely starter and has SEC starts as a Fr on a team with almost no running game and only one good WR. He's been in the fire. If he's not the starter then that's a pretty good indication that whoever beat him out is a pretty good QB.

We have two average backs in Neal and Lane.

Together they ran for 1300 yds last season averaging about 5 ypc in a pass first O. Neal avg'd about 4.5 ypc vs the SEC. Lane 4.97.

These guys need to be coached. They had legit talent coming out of HS and neither has suffered an injury that should have changed that.

We have no pass rushers as sentimorre lead with four last year.

Coaching and scheme. It is amazing that guys like Smith, Miller, and Walls can be highly acclaimed and wanted by everyone but then struggle like they have. Is it really possible that UT gets all overrated guys?

If Franklin can get Vandy's D with LESS talent from last to 6th to 4th then the RIGHT coach at UT can get these guys to at least mid-pack.

We have Couch and McCullers with hood and O'brien as back ups. AJ may be the best tackler, but Sapp is unproven, and maggitt is injury prone.

Honest question. Has Maggitt had a serious injury other than the knee?

You forgot Brewer. I honestly don't look for Maggitt to beat out either Sapp or Brewer. And Sapp isn't all that unproven. He got "real" reps last year and player fast when he was in.

I don't even want to look at the back ups.

There are back ups at MLB but I have no idea what would happen at OLB.

We have 3 good safeties in McNeil, Randolp, and Moore. We have only one decent corner in Coleman. We don't have SEC depth yet. Where would you rank our starters with other teams?

Starters vs the schedule? Better than Vandy, UK, Mizzou, USA, WKU, APSU... that's six "should wins" if Jones is the right guy. A loss against any of those teams IMO would be as bad or nearly as bad as Dooley's UK loss. Vandy's record looked good last year but they really didn't beat anyone significant. The combined records of the FBS teams they played was 37-60. They weren't nearly as good as their record.

I am not impressed with what USCe has coming back. I think UT's roster is at least as good as theirs if not better. The quality of their depth is likely no better than UT's either.

Auburn is more talented but beatable IMO.

Oregon lost quite a bit and is also changhing coaches (detailed in another thread). Jones has the players to beat them if he's the right guy.

UF, UGA, and Bama are more talented. It would take a special effort and coaching job to beat any of them.


I think you guys keep missing what I am saying. UT does not need an "average" coach. They need an elite coach if they are ever going to get back to the top and compete with Saban et al. This does not look like a team that can compete for the East. It also is not a roster that has only six wins in it IF JONES IS THE RIGHT GUY. The right guy will have the roster perform at a higher level than the sum of its parts.

 

[alaVOL]

If we go 4 - 8 do we fire Butch?


NO

 

[MFJones]

There are back ups at MLB but I have no idea what would happen at OLB. Starters vs the schedule? Better than Vandy, UK, Mizzou, USA, WKU, APSU... that's six "should wins" if Jones is the right guy. A loss against any of those teams IMO would be as bad or nearly as bad as Dooley's UK loss. Vandy's record looked good last year but they really didn't beat anyone significant. The combined records of the FBS teams they played was 37-60. They weren't nearly as good as their record.

You talking about the Vandy team that stomped the **** out of us last year? You are crazy if you thing Vandy is going to be a cake walk. Don't get me wrong, I feel like we should win, but to say that it is a W, well the sir, you haven’t been following Vandy the last few seasons.

I agree with you on the other 5 wins and I agree that we could very well have a surprise win against the other good SEC teams, but this idea of firing Butch is he only wins 6 games is ludicrous. Not only that, I it tells me a lot about your football IQ.

I am done with this argument. We'll just have to agree to disagree. On to the next thread.

 

[rockytop9808]

You talking about the Vandy team that stomped the **** out of us last year? You are crazy if you thing Vandy is going to be a cake walk. Don't get me wrong, I feel like we should win, but to say that it is a W, well the sir, you haven’t been following Vandy the last few seasons.

I agree with you on the other 5 wins and I agree that we could very well have a surprise win against the other good SEC teams, but this idea of firing Butch is he only wins 6 games is ludicrous. Not only that, I it tells me a lot about your football IQ.

I am done with this argument. We'll just have to agree to disagree. On to the next thread.

Well, this Vandy team isn't going to be as good as that same team that beat a whopping one team with a winning record last season.

 

[sjt18]

You talking about the Vandy team that stomped the **** out of us last year?

Which might matter if UT had performed anywhere close to their ability last season or in particular in that game. The ONLY game UT came close to performing at that level was NCSU in the first game of the season. One tape was all it took for opposing OC's to figure out Sunseri's D. Talent wise... UT should have beaten Vandy by a wide margin. Franklin and staff flat outcoached Dooley and staff. If he does the same thing to Jones... then he's not the guy.

You are crazy if you thing Vandy is going to be a cake walk.

Based on talent alone, Vandy should be a comfortable win for UT.

Don't get me wrong, I feel like we should win, but to say that it is a W, well the sir, you haven’t been following Vandy the last few seasons

I guess that's why I cited the FACT that they didn't beat anyone last year. Without UT being at an all time low and a weak schedule... Vandy would have still been a 5-7 win team.

I agree with you on the other 5 wins and I agree that we could very well have a surprise win against the other good SEC teams, but this idea of firing Butch is he only wins 6 games is ludicrous.

That's not what I said nor IMO within the realm of possibilities. I said that would be a very "average" performance with this roster. UT does not NEED an average coach. Fulmer had become average or slightly below. He had become uncompetitive with the top of the SEC. If being an also ran is OK with you then six wins this fall is a magnificent job by Jones. If you want to see championship teams at UT.... then not so much.

Not only that, I it tells me a lot about your football IQ.

Really? Disagreeing with you is a statement about my "football IQ"? I am not even sure how to challenge such an idiotic comment except to say that I consistently point to facts and logic when making my arguments. You haven't.

Nor have you answered the very simple question of what will be an acceptable number of wins for Jones in '14 and '15 if six is "great" this fall with this roster... and I am looking for a logical "why" to go with those predictions. Remember Oregon is replaced by OU.

If six is "great" this year then you are looking at 4 or 5 being "great" next year when all of that senior experience is gone and replaced by a less than super Soph class plus whoever UT lands this fall.

 

[MFJones]

Really? Disagreeing with you is a statement about my "football IQ"? I am not even sure how to challenge such an idiotic comment except to say that I consistently point to facts and logic when making my arguments. You haven't./QUOTE]

Correct, you are using logic. Logic that I would expect from a fan, but not from someone who evaluates players and schemes. Hince, is why I said, you appear to have a low football IQ. Anyone who is pre-judging a first year coach based SOLEY on wins and losses fits into this category IMO. Unless, as I said before, Jones totally stinks it up (Let's say 4-8 because you obviously want me to throw out a number). By your logic, Chip Kelly could take over Bama's program and win greater than 6-7 games in his first year. Well, sure, he might. But I wouldn't bet on it. Bama is not built for a Chip Kelly style offense and their QB, OL, and running backs would stink it up. He would fail in his first year,,, but make personel adjustments and get better with each year. Also by your logic, Gene Chezic should still be at Auburn looking to win his third national championship.

I hope this helps explain why I think your logic is off just a tad. If not, I guess I would make a pretty poor teacher. BTW, I just want to end this argument by saying. I am sorry for using the words "Low footbal IQ"... and I love you.:biggrin: