If we go 4 - 8 do we fire Butch? (merged)

[sjt18]

How some of you could defend Dooley after having a front row seat to his incompetence is beyond me.

Derek Dooley isn't a tool, he's the whole damn toolbox.

The direction of the program improved instantaneously with his dismissal.

Dooley inherited a bad situation. Dooley also failed. Those are not mutually exclusive truths.

Neither conflicts with the fact that you need a well thought out process/plan for how you deal with your coach. I think we can see a good business process in the way it was handled. I think the expectations for Dooley as reflected by public comments were too low... but I respect the way it was done far more than some emotion driven reaction.

Dooley was rightly fired. I am defending the "process" and the fact that you should be governed by level-headed thinking when dealing with personnel on any level.

 

[sjt18]

I totally understand he wasn't given much of a rope and agree that's where I find fault with the situation.

Maybe not fair... but it was realistic. A questionable coach at UT right now would be pure poison. That was also predictable. Three years of losing at UT puts any coach on the hotseat. Coaches on a hot seat generally have a hard time recruiting... and even worse at schools that have to recruit primarily out of state.

Not reasonable amount of time and why he had a 5 mil buyout.

It was a "reasonable" amount of time primarily because it was all the time he could be given without him doing something good on the field. It was low odds and you might say that's "unfair"... but it was all there was to be had.

To ur post about each parties responsibility to each other. I think many things were still pending to say he was able to get from behind the 8-ball. Heck he had to finish the new workout facilities, got to sell it in the future, but not actually got to use it like CBJ will be able to. This year would have been, Imo, his first real year without many issues off the field to clean up.

I think it would have been more of the same for several reasons. This roster is not as strong as last year's roster. Next years will be even weaker still and would have been worse had Dooley been kept and finished the '13 class the way it was heading. He was about to land a class outside the top 25.

Btw - I was watching Hart closely to see if he came out in Dooley's defense. I don't remember anything worth the lick to help calm the wildfire it caused. The guy had a hot seat coming in, so it needed to be a strong media push by Hart. The Gruden
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By mid-season there was nothing he could say. He needed Dooley to give him even one good win to hang his hat on... he seems to have even convinced himself that qualifying for a bowl would be enough. But Dooley couldn't give him anything to work with.

If you know your job is on the line and then perform as Dooley did... then you aren't the guy for the job.

 

[Oskie Volum]

How some of you could defend Dooley after having a front row seat to his incompetence is beyond me.

Derek Dooley isn't a tool, he's the whole damn toolbox.

The direction of the program improved instantaneously with his dismissal.

Well noted bro. I'm sure u are someone that can call someone a tool. Especially since u sit on a rivals board as much u do. Nice life...
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[darkgable]

Hi Volnation,

Some confessions. I started this thread because I was hoping to create controversy / generate some fiery discussion in the off-season. If I'm honest, it's been a little slow, and I wanted to speed things up a bit. I guess that means I was trolling because I was trying to get a reaction. I thought it was far enough out from the start of the season to be that provocative. But, it seems people have taken this very seriously. Including Fade.

More confessions. I would have never fired Fulmer. I would NEVER have let Hambone make that decision, and I would NEVER have thought about hiring Lane Kiffin and Derek Dooley. Those two brought some dark days to the Hill.

Butch is pretty much killing it right now. I don't know what that will mean come September, but he is outkicking his coverage right now. Long may he reign. Just win, baby.

Its one thing to want honest debate. Its another to think of worthless drivel. Let me think of the most r#tard$d thing I can think of and post it because today I need attention.

 

[RowdyZ]

I only read to page two before the stupidity of this thread overwhelmed me. Look at who the OP is, look at his post history then disregard 100% of what he posts. He STILL thinks Gruden didn't come because of Hart, Gruden was never coming and never will but this fanboy isn't smart enough to figure that out. He is also one of the "fans" who was saying Butch can't recruit because he didn't bring in a great class in 30 days. No point at all reading the OP's posts, you will lose brain cells.

 

[tm3]

Again, knee jerk reactions are no substitute for good management or a good plan/method/process.

I am arguing that you have to have a plan and process in place then stick to it if you want to go from bad performance to great.

we agree re plan and process.

we disagree re "knee jerk" vs a judgment call of exceeding the limit.

if my CFO was caught porking the cleaning lady on his desk after he threatened to fire her if she didn't comply, i would show him the door regardless of the plan, process, and goals. you might argue that i was being "knee jerk" -- your prerogative.

relative to the original thread topic, i would ask those (including you) who say CBJ should stay after 4-8 to then consider what their limit is. i would toss him for a winless season. exactly where the line should be drawn (3 wins? 2? 1?) is tricky.

 

[KBVol]

How some of you could defend Dooley after having a front row seat to his incompetence is beyond me.

Derek Dooley isn't a tool, he's the whole damn toolbox.

The direction of the program improved instantaneously with his dismissal.

Abso-freakin-lutely!!! Should've accepted his resignation after the Kentucky debacle

 

[WoodsmanVol]

How some of you could defend Dooley after having a front row seat to his incompetence is beyond me.

Derek Dooley isn't a tool, he's the whole damn toolbox.

The direction of the program improved instantaneously with his dismissal.

I can't speak for everyone, obviously. I think it's less about defending DD than it is about the constant, unending spiteful and hateful posts about him. Instead of letting the fact he's gone end it.

He isn't here anymore though he did come here when nobody else wanted to. He isn't here, and he isn't saying bad things about the UT day in and day out like posters here. He's gone, we got a new coach who seems to know what he's doing and the future is beginning to look brighter than it has for a long time.

Why the hell can't people here take that and care for it a lot more than Dooley bashing at every opportunity and acting like doing so is their daily heroin fix, puzzles the heck out of me.

Man, as much as I hated how Kiffin left, I hated his pet gorilla, Ed the Orge worse because of what he did regarding our recruits. But I don't and didn't harp on it daily. Like DD, they're gone, gone, gone. Here and now actually exists if you Dooley haters will look up from the hate trough and see it.

 

[99gator]

I can't speak for everyone, obviously. I think it's less about defending DD than it is about the constant, unending spiteful and hateful posts about him. Instead of letting the fact he's gone end it.

He isn't here anymore though he did come here when nobody else wanted to. He isn't here, and he isn't saying bad things about the UT day in and day out like posters here. He's gone, we got a new coach who seems to know what he's doing and the future is beginning to look brighter than it has for a long time.

Why the hell can't people here take that and care for it a lot more than Dooley bashing at every opportunity and acting like doing so is their daily heroin fix, puzzles the heck out of me.

Man, as much as I hated how Kiffin left, I hated his pet gorilla, Ed the Orge worse because of what he did regarding our recruits. But I don't and didn't harp on it daily. Like DD, they're gone, gone, gone. Here and now actually exists if you Dooley haters will look up from the hate trough and see it.

part of the hate are the myths people choose to create.

1. the dooley era wasn't a complete disaster

2. no one else wanted the job

 

[griffdog14]

is gruden available lol do we bring back dooley not smart question in my opinion

10/10 would get trolled again.

 

[tm3]

those who definitively state that "no one else wanted the job" are about as accurate as those who state the factoids about Gruden.

only a few know what really went down, and i don't think they post here.

Fooley gave UT 3 losing seasons in a row, the worst seasons in over 100 years. he has earned my animosity.

 

[sjt18]

part of the hate are the myths people choose to create.

1. the dooley era wasn't a complete disaster

2. no one else wanted the job

The Dooley era wasn't a complete disaster. The roster is better than it was at this point 3 years ago by a wide margin. We don't have on-going threads about the last Vol player to be arrested.

"No one" is a pretty big group... but for sure none of the top shelf coaches showed any interest. Muschamp said no and referred Dooley btw.

But no, that's no part of the hate. The "hate" leads some here to blame Dooley for everything and to take unnecessary shots at him at every turn.

 

[sjt18]

those who definitively state that "no one else wanted the job" are about as accurate as those who state the factoids about Gruden.

only a few know what really went down, and i don't think they post here.

Fooley gave UT 3 losing seasons in a row, the worst seasons in over 100 years. he has earned my animosity.

I'm sorry... but Fulmer had a much bigger hand in that than Dooley. Without Fulmer's arrogant fall... there would have never been a "Dooley Era" at UT. Fulmer set up whoever coached the Vols 09-11 for failure. Dooley proved to my satisfaction that he was not the right guy to lead the program forward... but your animosity is misdirected.

 

[99gator]

The Dooley era wasn't a complete disaster. The roster is better than it was at this point 3 years ago by a wide margin. We don't have on-going threads about the last Vol player to be arrested.

"No one" is a pretty big group... but for sure none of the top shelf coaches showed any interest. Muschamp said no and referred Dooley btw.

But no, that's no part of the hate. The "hate" leads some here to blame Dooley for everything and to take unnecessary shots at him at every turn.

i know this is a point where we agree to disagree.

but, the talent is not on a level to go out and contend this season.

if the top talent that does exist leaves for the draft, it's not going to be pretty in 2014 either.

so, imo, butch has been put in no better of a position.

it's going to take at least 3 years for tennessee to go out and be favored to win games against some of the better competition.

 

[sjt18]

if my CFO was caught porking the cleaning lady on his desk after he threatened to fire her if she didn't comply, i would show him the door regardless of the plan, process, and goals. you might argue that i was being "knee jerk" -- your prerogative.

Oranges and apples. Dooley failed to improve results after being given the minimum time to do so. As far as we know, he did nothing illegal, immoral, or unethical. Losing to UK... does not compare to "porking the cleaning lady" at work.

If your President of Operations took over your business when the quality of personnel was at an all time low compared to your competition and with your business having been in decline for 7 or 8 years... and acutely so for the last 3 or so... would you fire him for one bad quarter? Would you let him get some people in place and trained before deciding whether he was the right guy or not?

Maybe it is a short rope. I think Dooley's always was and should have been. But you at least give the guy a chance to perform with a staff that he's put in place and trained.

relative to the original thread topic, i would ask those (including you) who say CBJ should stay after 4-8 to then consider what their limit is. i would toss him for a winless season. exactly where the line should be drawn (3 wins? 2? 1?) is tricky.

I don't think he would be fired. I'm not sure how relevant "should be" is. I think too many have already convinced themselves that six wins would constitute a "great" job with this team. I COMPLETELY disagree.

I do fully believe that if he wins only 4 or even 6 with this roster then UT will have a new coach this time 3 or 4 years from now. If he does that poorly this year then what is that lower limit next year when the roster will be much less experienced, less talented, and probably thinner? 0-12? If Jones is a 6 win coach with this team then he's probably a 3-5 win coach with the '14 roster. That means he, like Dooley, will have the weight of the world on him in year 3 when he will have to save his neck.

 

[JohnnyBall]

Gruden was in play. Why it fell over is a question for one Dave Hart.

Dooley exposed himself at Showergate, and it went downhill from there. Dooley should have been left at the curb after the KY debacle.

We could have taken a stalk of bamboo, put a visor on it and a Spurrier mask, stuck it on the sidelines, called it Head Coach, and won seven games last year.

Or we could have made the Orange Dog interim defensive coordinator. Actually, that would have been the most impressive bit of moxie Dools would have shown as UTHFC.

Gruden was never an option..get over it

 

[sjt18]

i know this is a point where we agree to disagree.

but, the talent is not on a level to go out and contend this season.

I don't disagree with that. THe OL is there and probably the DL. Maybe even RB. The first 3 safeties look good and the first line of LB. But there are critically thin areas. CB is a problem. UT has no quality experience at receiver or TE. While there looks to be 4 talented QB's on the roster, we don't know what any of them can actually do.

I don't really look for them to "contend" as in winning 10 games and competing for the East. Jones is an elite coach if he pulls that one off.

But if he is a guy who can ever get UT back in contention then this simply isn't a six win team. If he's that good then he wins 7 or 8 with an upset of someone UT isn't expected to "contend" with... your Gators actually make an interesting candidate if it weren't for UT's away game at Oregon the week before.

if the top talent that does exist leaves for the draft, it's not going to be pretty in 2014 either.

I have repeatedly said that. If six wins is "great" this year then folks better get ready to call 4 "great" in '14. If Jones is the right guy then I'm looking more for 7 or 8 this year then 6 or 7 next year before having his own guys in place and mature in '15 and '16.

so, imo, butch has been put in no better of a position.

That is simply incorrect and that is not intended as a defense of Dooley or a shot a Jones.

QB, OL, DL, LB, and RB were ALL much worse. Secondary is about a wash. WR was better then but not as deep. TE is roughly a wash. And Dooley didn't even get one recruiting class of his own before having to go out and play with that roster. Jones basically has a good year or two head start over what Dooley had.

it's going to take at least 3 years for tennessee to go out and be favored to win games against some of the better competition.

Again, I am not arguing anything different unless Jones is a miracle worker. OTOH, if he is a top shelf coach capable of ever winning at that level then he gets more than six wins out of the current roster. If he is at that level then he should beat USB, Vandy, UK, AP, WKU, and Mizzou. He should then beat one of the following (in order of likelihood IMO): Aub, USCe, Oregon, UGA, or UF.

If he beats Bama... re-name the stadium after him and buy new trophy cases.

 

[MFJones]

Not saying we will get beat by WKU, but they are not going to be a cake walk. They are legit. The team that played BAMA tight last year is mostly coming back. They now have a coach too. Vandy should be a good team again this year as well. If Jones gets 6 wins this year, we should all rest a sigh of relief. If he gets 7 wins, then we should be very optimistic about our future with our new coach. We got a tough schedule this year fellas. Outside of APSU, we are going to earn every win we get.

 

[sjt18]

Sorry but if he gets only six wins with this roster against that schedule then he ain't the guy to get the Vols back to championships. If you are satisfied with mid-level bowls and being an also-ran in the SEC then I guess you should be satisfied with six.

 

[MFJones]

Sorry but if he gets only six wins with this roster against that schedule then he ain't the guy to get the Vols back to championships. If you are satisfied with mid-level bowls and being an also-ran in the SEC then I guess you should be satisfied with six.

Hey man, I'm not saying that I will be satisfied with 6-7 wins per year. I'm just trying to be realistic about this coming season, the current state of our program, and the extremely high level of competition in the SEC right now. Take a look at how Saban did when he took over BAMA his first season (7-6). I would go as far as to say that BAMA's program was in much better shape than UT when Saban took over. I believe Jones and his staff will get us back to competing at the highest level again, but its likely going to take a couple of years. He runs a different style offense than what we are use to seeing. We have to give him time to recruit his players to run it.

With all this said, maybe the stars will align perfectly for us this year. Lord knows, we are due for some good fortune.

 

[Eddie Vol Halen]

I can't speak for everyone, obviously. I think it's less about defending DD than it is about the constant, unending spiteful and hateful posts about him. Instead of letting the fact he's gone end it.

Hambone, Kiffin, and Dooley deserve the full creative force of Vol fan ridicule for a generation or more.

To simply "let it go" not only demeans true fans, but puts these jokers at the same level as Bill Battle, which is actually wrong.

 

[tm3]

I'm sorry... but Fulmer had a much bigger hand in that than Dooley. Without Fulmer's arrogant fall... there would have never been a "Dooley Era" at UT. Fulmer set up whoever coached the Vols 09-11 for failure. Dooley proved to my satisfaction that he was not the right guy to lead the program forward... but your animosity is misdirected.

No, I have plenty of animosity for Fulmer, Cheek, Martin, Haslam, and everyone else who played a role.

But giving Dooley a pass is crazy.

 

[tm3]

I do fully believe that if he wins only 4 or even 6 with this roster then UT will have a new coach this time 3 or 4 years from now. If he does that poorly this year then what is that lower limit next year when the roster will be much less experienced, less talented, and probably thinner? 0-12? If Jones is a 6 win coach with this team then he's probably a 3-5 win coach with the '14 roster. That means he, like Dooley, will have the weight of the world on him in year 3 when he will have to save his neck.

Since you keep posturing rather than answering, I have to conclude that, if it were your decision, you would not fire CBJ after a winless 2013 and instead would rely on giving the "process" plenty of time to play out.

UT gives plenty of time. UF and Bama give out pink slips. And who rules the SEC?

 

[NashVol11]

But if he is a guy who can ever get UT back in contention then this simply isn't a six win team. If he's that good then he wins 7 or 8 with an upset of someone UT isn't expected to "contend" with... your Gators actually make an interesting candidate if it weren't for UT's away game at Oregon the week before.

So, Dooley inherited a team that was good for 6 wins with a bad coach and 7-8 with a good one...and then left behind a team worthy of 6 wins with a bad coach and 7-8 with a good one. What a huge and significant improvement!

 

[sjt18]

Hey man, I'm not saying that I will be satisfied with 6-7 wins per year. I'm just trying to be realistic about this coming season, the current state of our program, and the extremely high level of competition in the SEC right now.

And my point is that you are not being realistic if Jones is "the guy". If he's the guy to bring UT back then he wins the six he should then takes down someone he's not currently expected to beat like Aub, USCe, or Ore. The cupboard is not bare. ALL of the OL's could be taken in the draft next year. AJ is likely to be drafted along with McCullers and Couch. That's at least 8 guys out of 22 starters.

That is FAR from a team that should be challenged to win 6 games. There are holes to be filled. There are players that need to be coached up... but that's his job.

Take a look at how Saban did when he took over BAMA his first season (7-6). I would go as far as to say that BAMA's program was in much better shape than UT when Saban took over.

And you'd be wrong. He had severe discipline issues. IIRC, he took them from the 4-3 to 3-4 that year. There were pretty big roster holes too.

He does not face discipline problems. The return to the 4-3 after last year's failed experiment will be welcomed.

Moreover, why do you pick Saban? Why not Sumlin who walked into a much more similar situation?

I believe Jones and his staff will get us back to competing at the highest level again, but its likely going to take a couple of years. He runs a different style offense than what we are use to seeing. We have to give him time to recruit his players to run it.

He inherits good players who according to his own statements have bought in completely, If he does not win more than six then he's not the guy. He'll have a tougher time next year and even if he did have the talent to get UT back... he would need to do something incredible in 2015 to get the chance.

With all this said, maybe the stars will align perfectly for us this year. Lord knows, we are due for some good fortune.

Seven wins. That's not asking too much of him with this roster. Even Dooley with a worse roster and at least as difficult of a schedule got six wins his first year... and barring two very strange plays would have had 8.