If we go 4 - 8 do we fire Butch? (merged)

[NashVol11]

Some of you guys are talking like Kevin Sumlin is the greatest coach ever. He may or may not be. What he is a very fortunate man that took over a program in good shape that lost a bunch of close games the previous year, plus he inherited a difference maker at QB.

In 2011, Texas A&M was 7-6. They lost 5 games by 4 or fewer points without Johnny Manziel as their QB. They lost to Okla. St. by 1, Arkansas with Petrino by 4, Missouri in O.T., Kansas St. in 4 O.T.s, and Texas by 2. With Manziel, they probably would have been 12-1, because he is worth a few points a game.

In 2012, under Sumlin, they were 11-2. They won 3 games by 5 points or less. Ole Miss by 3, La. Tech by 2 (59-57), and Alabama by 5. Without Manziel, they probably would have been 8-5. So, Manziel is the difference in the team, just like Cam Newton at Auburn. Sumlin may now get on a roll and recruit like mad, but he walked into a very favorable situation.

I think that the record would have been the same for A&M this past year with the former coach, and the same in 2011 if Sumlin had been the coach. Manziel knows how to make something happen to win a close game, unlike Tyler Bray.

Yeah, I'm sure Sumlin would have gone winless in the SEC here. Dear God.

 

[KBVol]

Some of you guys are talking like Kevin Sumlin is the greatest coach ever. He may or may not be. What he is a very fortunate man that took over a program in good shape that lost a bunch of close games the previous year, plus he inherited a difference maker at QB.

In 2011, Texas A&M was 7-6. They lost 5 games by 4 or fewer points without Johnny Manziel as their QB. They lost to Okla. St. by 1, Arkansas with Petrino by 4, Missouri in O.T., Kansas St. in 4 O.T.s, and Texas by 2. With Manziel, they probably would have been 12-1, because he is worth a few points a game.

In 2012, under Sumlin, they were 11-2. They won 3 games by 5 points or less. Ole Miss by 3, La. Tech by 2 (59-57), and Alabama by 5. Without Manziel, they probably would have been 8-5. So, Manziel is the difference in the team, just like Cam Newton at Auburn. Sumlin may now get on a roll and recruit like mad, but he walked into a very favorable situation.

I think that the record would have been the same for A&M this past year with the former coach, and the same in 2011 if Sumlin had been the coach. Manziel knows how to make something happen to win a close game, unlike Tyler Bray.

Good data and logical conclusions IMHO. Sumlin, I believe, is an up and coming coach. But he also was very fortunate to walk into a situation where Manziel came out of nowhere to be a playmaking difference maker at QB. Little bit of lightning in a bottle. Lets see if he pulls it off again this year. Odds are he doesn't repeat the same success.

 

[butchna]

Good data and logical conclusions IMHO. Sumlin, I believe, is an up and coming coach. But he also was very fortunate to walk into a situation where Manziel came out of nowhere to be a playmaking difference maker at QB. Little bit of lightning in a bottle. Lets see if he pulls it off again this year. Odds are he doesn't repeat the same success.

The general masses disregard or discount the time Manziel put in with a QB guru last off-season...I've heard people flaming Sherman for not playing him as a true freshman either along with or over Tanneyhill...why do I bring this up?...How much time has Johnny Football put into growing his game...in the off time of hobnobbing and country video making...Sumlin might have to show some coaching genius this year
Posted via VolNation Mobile

 

[KBVol]

The general masses disregard or discount the time Manziel put in with a QB guru last off-season...I've heard people flaming Sherman for not playing him as a true freshman either along with or over Tanneyhill...why do I bring this up?...How much time has Johnny Football put into growing his game...in the off time of hobnobbing and country video making...Sumlin might have to show some coaching genius this year
Posted via VolNation Mobile

Agreed.

 

[VolsRule]

butch should win 7 games easily, maybe 8 with an upset. he'll get at least 3 years to repair this train wreck left by dooley and kiffin.

 

[sjt18]

butch should win 7 games easily, maybe 8 with an upset. he'll get at least 3 years to repair this train wreck left by dooley and kiffin.

If he wins 6 this year then 6 or less next year (which he likely will if he is only good enough to win 6 this year) then he will be in a do or die third year just like Dooley was.

The train wreck was created by Fulmer. You can argue the extent to which Dooley/Kiffin did or did not help to get the train back on the tracks.... but this is STILL the direct result of Fulmer's decline and ultimate failure. MANY here and elsewhere predicted it would take 5 years to rebuild the roster Fulmer left.

 

[sjt18]

Guys will emerge this year if given time. We will have an established starter at qb. If we play our cards right, we can get Posey, Kerbyson, and Crowder some experience. It won't be the first year of our system next year. I believe the fruits of Butch's labour will show next year, not this year.

Then what is reasonable to expect? The Vols will more than like replace their whole OL, one of their top two RB's, their whole starting DL, and all of their starting LB's. Jones will choose between the talent he recruited in the '14 class and upperclassmen who are not as talented as those new players or the ones they replace.

So what will be a reasonable win total? If six is a "great" result this year then surely it cannot be more than that next year, right? Probably less.

 

[Eddie Vol Halen]

If he wins 6 this year then 6 or less next year (which he likely will if he is only good enough to win 6 this year) then he will be in a do or die third year just like Dooley was.

The train wreck was created by Fulmer. You can argue the extent to which Dooley/Kiffin did or did not help to get the train back on the tracks.... but this is STILL the direct result of Fulmer's decline and ultimate failure. MANY here and elsewhere predicted it would take 5 years to rebuild the roster Fulmer left.

This is straight crazy.

The apocalypse was Kiffin - worst recruiting class in the history of the NCAA, ran-off several NFL players from the roster, inherited truck-loads of talent that he under-achieved with, the NCAA, mattresses burning in the night.

Then a guy with another famous dad, TweedleDools, took over the program. His claim to fame was finding new and creative ways to lose to proper teams, on top of finding ways to lose to both Vanderbilt and Kentucky.

There is no mistake that we were actually better the closer we were to the Fulmer regime. Not even Kiffin could completely screw-up the talent he had, and Dools was best in Year One.

 

[terrypedigo]

No no no no no nmo no no no9 no no no hell no hell no hell no hell no hell no

 

[terrypedigo]

If he wins 6 this year then 6 or less next year (which he likely will if he is only good enough to win 6 this year) then he will be in a do or die third year just like Dooley was.

The train wreck was created by Fulmer. You can argue the extent to which Dooley/Kiffin did or did not help to get the train back on the tracks.... but this is STILL the direct result of Fulmer's decline and ultimate failure. MANY here and elsewhere predicted it would take 5 years to rebuild the roster Fulmer left.

On the way of wrecking the train we won a NC.lol:lol:lol:lol:lol:lol:lol:lol:lol:lol:lol:lol:lol:lol:lol:lol:lol:lol:lol:lol:lol:lol:lol:lol:lol:lol:lol:

 

[terrypedigo]

It is so hard to believe some of the football IQ on here, it is a joke.

 

[sjt18]

This is straight crazy.

So FACTS are crazy? Kiffin was forced to start two 265 lb walk ons on the OL plus a Freshman because of Fulmer's ABJECT failure for about 4 years running to recruit the OL positions. He had a rotation of undertalented players and DE's try to play next to Dan Williams at DT. His ONLY good RB option was a guy who had been hurt for 3 years. There was no one else. He had one SEC caliber talent at QB and he was a head case.

Fulmer had THREE consecutive failed recruiting efforts. THREE. The one "good" class Fulmer left were Srs when Kiffin arrived and there weren't enough of them.

The apocalypse was Kiffin - worst recruiting class in the history of the NCAA,

Now that... it straight crazy. Fulmer left a class that was falling apart and few solid players who were remotely interested in UT. Some of the commits were (and have proven to be) not good enough so Kiffin cut them loose. The exception to that was Boyd. You're blaming the wrecker driver for not being able to pull a car of the tracks fast enough to avoid it getting hit by the train. That class was bad. Kiffin's additions to it were no better than what Fulmer had started. But given a full year... he left Dooley with a pretty good group of EE's and list of interested players.

I despise Kiffin for what he did and how. But that class was FAR more Fulmer than Kiffin.

ran-off several NFL players from the roster,

Several? I don't remember several. Can you list them?

inherited truck-loads of talent that he under-achieved with, the NCAA, mattresses burning in the night.

Please list the names of that "truckload" of talent. It flat out did not exist. You are demonstrating yourself to be a delusional "fulmerite".

I respect what Fulmer accomplished early but he was terrible at the end.

There is no mistake that we were actually better the closer we were to the Fulmer regime. Not even Kiffin could completely screw-up the talent he had, and Dools was best in Year One.

This paragraph is completely untethered from reality. Fulmer didn't just leave the cupboard empty... he left it just one rung above what it would have been if UT had been coming off an NCAA death sentence.

Just a little nugget for you, 20 of the 32 players from Fulmer's "great" 2007 class... never contributed in any significant way. Many never even made it to their Soph year. They should have been the Sr leaders of Dooley's first team. Only about 5 made any kind of real contribution that year. The only future NFL player from that class left on the roster in '10 was D Moore.

By comparison, Jones inherits an OL which should put 5 guys in the draft NEXT spring. He inherits 2 solid QB talents. He inherits 2 good RBs. He inherits a boatload of guys with talent on the DL who need good coaching.

If you think Fulmer left a bunch of talent and then Kiffin/Dooley ruined it... then you should think Jones is positioned to win the NC.

 

[sjt18]

butch should win 7 games easily, maybe 8 with an upset. he'll get at least 3 years to repair this train wreck left by dooley and kiffin.

It won't be easy. He does inherit siginificant problems to overcome. But if he is the right guy to take UT to the top of the SEC... he will win 7 or more.

 

[1972 Grad]

So FACTS are crazy? Kiffin was forced to start two 265 lb walk ons on the OL plus a Freshman because of Fulmer's ABJECT failure for about 4 years running to recruit the OL positions. He had a rotation of undertalented players and DE's try to play next to Dan Williams at DT. His ONLY good RB option was a guy who had been hurt for 3 years. There was no one else. He had one SEC caliber talent at QB and he was a head case.

Fulmer had THREE consecutive failed recruiting efforts. THREE. The one "good" class Fulmer left were Srs when Kiffin arrived and there weren't enough of them.

Now that... it straight crazy. Fulmer left a class that was falling apart and few solid players who were remotely interested in UT. Some of the commits were (and have proven to be) not good enough so Kiffin cut them loose. The exception to that was Boyd. You're blaming the wrecker driver for not being able to pull a car of the tracks fast enough to avoid it getting hit by the train. That class was bad. Kiffin's additions to it were no better than what Fulmer had started. But given a full year... he left Dooley with a pretty good group of EE's and list of interested players.

I despise Kiffin for what he did and how. But that class was FAR more Fulmer than Kiffin.

Several? I don't remember several. Can you list them?

Please list the names of that "truckload" of talent. It flat out did not exist. You are demonstrating yourself to be a delusional "fulmerite".

I respect what Fulmer accomplished early but he was terrible at the end.


This paragraph is completely untethered from reality. Fulmer didn't just leave the cupboard empty... he left it just one rung above what it would have been if UT had been coming off an NCAA death sentence.

Just a little nugget for you, 20 of the 32 players from Fulmer's "great" 2007 class... never contributed in any significant way. Many never even made it to their Soph year. They should have been the Sr leaders of Dooley's first team. Only about 5 made any kind of real contribution that year. The only future NFL player from that class left on the roster in '10 was D Moore.

By comparison, Jones inherits an OL which should put 5 guys in the draft NEXT spring. He inherits 2 solid QB talents. He inherits 2 good RBs. He inherits a boatload of guys with talent on the DL who need good coaching.

If you think Fulmer left a bunch of talent and then Kiffin/Dooley ruined it... then you should think Jones is positioned to win the NC.

You make too much sense to be on here.

 

[tm3]

You make too much sense to be on here.

man, there are only a few voices of reason left on VN. don't go chasing them off!

 

[Burger]

Then what is reasonable to expect? The Vols will more than like replace their whole OL, one of their top two RB's, their whole starting DL, and all of their starting LB's. Jones will choose between the talent he recruited in the '14 class and upperclassmen who are not as talented as those new players or the ones they replace.

So what will be a reasonable win total? If six is a "great" result this year then surely it cannot be more than that next year, right? Probably less.

6-7 wins again. Progress won't show in the record until year 3. I think its asinine to make 6 wins in year one the now or never mark. Saban only won 6 at Alabubber in his first year there. It's the exact same situation also. They had a mishap of hirings since Stallings, but Saban had a roster that resembles an SEC team. Jones has a bottom barrel SEC team, he has to recast and remold.

That's the one and only thing we disagree about. You think we have more talent than I do, for this is perception. It's in the eye of the beholder. I can't argue anymore about that, but this is never an end-all unless he wins less than 5 games. 6 games is a neutral for me, because this is Doofus' team.

 

[photovol]

Fulmer won over 84% of his games with Cutcliffe as OC. When Cutcliffe wasn't here CPF barely won 60%. Phils last 4 seasons summed it up nicely: 5-7 with Sanders, then two 10-win seasons with Cut, then 5-7 with Clawson.

We should have doubled Cut's salary and named a street after him...and/or named him co-head coach.

Fulmer having Chavis didn't hurt either....remember Chavis

 

[1972 Grad]

Fulmer having Chavis didn't hurt either....remember Chavis

I do. He was the one who made the game exciting. Even if we were up 2 or 3 td's with 15 minutes to play, you could bet the game would go to the wire. You always got your money's worth with old Chief.

 

[GrowVol]

6-7 wins again. Progress won't show in the record until year 3. I think its asinine to make 6 wins in year one the now or never mark. Saban only won 6 at Alabubber in his first year there. It's the exact same situation also. They had a mishap of hirings since Stallings, but Saban had a roster that resembles an SEC team. Jones has a bottom barrel SEC team, he has to recast and remold.

That's the one and only thing we disagree about. You think we have more talent than I do, for this is perception. It's in the eye of the beholder. I can't argue anymore about that, but this is never an end-all unless he wins less than 5 games. 6 games is a neutral for me, because this is Doofus' team.

Dude,i respect your beliefs, but man these kids regardless of rankings and experience can "put it all in". They can out perform our expectations,and heck,next year,all it takes is ONE walk on to be a GAME CHANGER.Please help the cause and be POSITIVE.It supports all this S**T.

 

[Burger]

Dude,i respect your beliefs, but man these kids regardless of rankings and experience can "put it all in". They can out perform our expectations,and heck,next year,all it takes is ONE walk on to be a GAME CHANGER.Please help the cause and be POSITIVE.It supports all this S**T.

Butch will do it because his plan seems to work extremely well, and that reflects on the product. They very well could, and I honestly think we will. We can't create that damn bar though. If he wins 8-9 games I will be surprised.

 

[HuntlandVolinColo]

Why not kiffen and dooley will both be available by then....jk

Only if it looked like he was in over his head and he was at fault....or he pulled a pearl. Or he was bangin Cheek/Hamilton's wives like a screen door in a tornado. (please for your safety do not visualize last comment).

 

[MFJones]

Why not kiffen and dooley will both be available by then....jk

Only if it looked like he was in over his head and he was at fault....or he pulled a pearl. Or he was bangin Cheek/Hamilton's wives like a screen door in a tornado. (please for your safety do not visualize last comment).

HuntlandVolinColo, when did you graduate HHS? I am from Huntland as well. Graduated from FCHS. Grew up on corner of 64 and Indian Creek Rd.

 

[zidanefan]

Abso-freakin-lutely!!! Should've accepted his resignation after the Kentucky debacle

If it is true that he gave up and tried to resign after Kentucky, I wish we'd fight the buyout, particularly if (as some allege) it led to the mass exodus of coaches and the Sunseri debacle. That is beyond incompetence - it is willfully damaging a program for $$$. Sickening...

 

[oregonvol]

Some of you guys are talking like Kevin Sumlin is the greatest coach ever. He may or may not be. What he is a very fortunate man that took over a program in good shape that lost a bunch of close games the previous year, plus he inherited a difference maker at QB.

In 2011, Texas A&M was 7-6. They lost 5 games by 4 or fewer points without Johnny Manziel as their QB. They lost to Okla. St. by 1, Arkansas with Petrino by 4, Missouri in O.T., Kansas St. in 4 O.T.s, and Texas by 2. With Manziel, they probably would have been 12-1, because he is worth a few points a game.

In 2012, under Sumlin, they were 11-2. They won 3 games by 5 points or less. Ole Miss by 3, La. Tech by 2 (59-57), and Alabama by 5. Without Manziel, they probably would have been 8-5. So, Manziel is the difference in the team, just like Cam Newton at Auburn. Sumlin may now get on a roll and recruit like mad, but he walked into a very favorable situation.

I think that the record would have been the same for A&M this past year with the former coach, and the same in 2011 if Sumlin had been the coach. Manziel knows how to make something happen to win a close game, unlike Tyler Bray.

Why does Manziel get the credit? This time last year, hardly anyone knew who he was and he had not even won the starting job yet. But this time last year, pretty much anyone who followed college football knew who Sumlin was. They knew he had taken Houston to a top 5 national ranking and guided Case Keenum to becoming the NCAA's all time leader in total passing yard, touchdowns, and completions. So why would one assume Manziel is more of the factor in A&M's turnaround, rather than the guy who had previous proven college success?

 

[HuntlandVolinColo]

HuntlandVolinColo, when did you graduate HHS? I am from Huntland as well. Graduated from FCHS. Grew up on corner of 64 and Indian Creek Rd.

Class of 82. Lived in Elora.