I'll have to hand it to CBJ - he knows how to handle a loss

[sjt18]

If only it were that easy.:hi:

Not easy. Terribly hard.... made harder when you aren't honest when a coach fails to meet the standard whether it be for a game, a season, a year, or 3 years.

Jones may become the success that many here have talked themselves into believing he will be. But Saturday was NOT a step in the right direction. It was a leap in the wrong direction.

 

[sjt18]

Coach Jones wanted this job. It dawned on me that he could be in Cincinnati trying for another title. He wanted to come to the toughest conference and take over a team that was in disarray. Coach Jones believes in his process and maybe it is time fans do too.

The program wasn't in disarray. It had a decent base of talent, no significant discipline issues, some of the best facilities in the country, a loyal fanbase, loyal contributors, no NCAA problems, and his predecessor left under orderly if unpleasant circumstances.

Why do we have to believe in his process? I want to see a team play above, not below, its talent level. I want to see a team keep games closer than expected and win unexpectedly.

My "faith" in his process was pretty well rocked by the largest margin of loss in 100 years.

Today he put the team on notice nobody's job is safe you have to earn it.

How about him and his staff? Did he say anything about the playcalling? Did he say anything about being unable to scheme players open on pass plays a week after Petrino did it with regularity against him with inferior athletes?

I am satisfied that we have the right man for the job.

I would like a reason to share your faith. I really and truly would. But I see nothing right now that suggests it is anything but blind faith... and I just can't do that.

 

[sjt18]

Have you had your head in the sand the last few years? Just curious. Some of your posts read like you've missed the last 10 years or so. Any comas we should know about or anything?

What on EARTH are you babbling about?

No... I've pretty much suffered through the last 10 years watching Sanders' incompetence tolerated due to Fulmer's "loyalty" to him.... as the program declined. Then the brief respite when Cut was in town... then Fulmer's final debacle.... then the embarrassment of Kiffin... the incompetence of Dooley....

Speaking of comas... how would YOU grade the coaching this past Saturday?

The ONLY team I would say confidently has played at or above its level of talent was 2007... and they didn't vs UF/Bama.

I was accused of being a Fulmer supporter... because I advocated him getting a chance to go through the whole process before getting fired. I saw his failings... but accept that it is the sum of a coach's work. Same for Dooley.

Fulmer had a record to give him the benefit of the doubt. I gave Dooley the benefit of the doubt too. But now we are watching the Jones era begin pretty similar to the Dooley era... except Dooley's first recruiting class was set up better than he set Jones up.

Three years ago Dooley beat up on a scrub then had a respectable half vs Oregon before getting blown out by a better team. He followed that up with a "moral" victory vs UF in which he had the team in a position to win in the second half.

The only difference in the pattern so far with Jones is that UT was out of the Oregon game by the end of the 1st qtr.

Forgive me if clichés, slogans, and "energy" do not cause me to ignore a poorly coached game or the similarities to the beginnings of the last coach... who failed.

 

[NMVol]

Uh took Majors a while to come on. The Vols have done the down cycle thing.

 

[tenntex67]

This is what I believe. Granted this was a 1 game blowout, the problem is that it has been a pattern. If it continues that is when you begin to question leadership, again.

Could it be the players just don't have the beast mentality that is needed to play at this level?

 

[OWB]

What on EARTH are you babbling about?

No... I've pretty much suffered through the last 10 years watching Sanders' incompetence tolerated due to Fulmer's "loyalty" to him.... as the program declined. Then the brief respite when Cut was in town... then Fulmer's final debacle.... then the embarrassment of Kiffin... the incompetence of Dooley....

Speaking of comas... how would YOU grade the coaching this past Saturday?

The ONLY team I would say confidently has played at or above its level of talent was 2007... and they didn't vs UF/Bama.

I was accused of being a Fulmer supporter... because I advocated him getting a chance to go through the whole process before getting fired. I saw his failings... but accept that it is the sum of a coach's work. Same for Dooley.

Fulmer had a record to give him the benefit of the doubt. I gave Dooley the benefit of the doubt too. But now we are watching the Jones era begin pretty similar to the Dooley era... except Dooley's first recruiting class was set up better than he set Jones up.

Three years ago Dooley beat up on a scrub then had a respectable half vs Oregon before getting blown out by a better team. He followed that up with a "moral" victory vs UF in which he had the team in a position to win in the second half.

The only difference in the pattern so far with Jones is that UT was out of the Oregon game by the end of the 1st qtr.

Forgive me if clichés, slogans, and "energy" do not cause me to ignore a poorly coached game or the similarities to the beginnings of the last coach... who failed.

Oh, so you just don't understand the game and everything involved with it. Gotcha. Carry on.

 

[sjt18]

Uh took Majors a while to come on. The Vols have done the down cycle thing.

Majors had won a National Championship at Pitt and coached a RB to the Heisman.

 

[NMVol]

Majors had won a National Championship at Pitt and coached a RB to the Heisman.

Right and he was brought into revitalize a struggling UT program. Took him awhile and it took one of his assistance to get over the NC hump.

 

[sjt18]

Oh, so you just don't understand the game and everything involved with it. Gotcha. Carry on.

Apparently if that's all you've got then I understand it quite a bit better than you. You make some incoherent comment about comas... then can't explain what you mean.

I understand just fine... and unlike you apparently I see just fine. Bluster and BS are all fine and dandy as long as you back them up with performance. I want Jones to succeed. I like Jones. But all he's done so far at UT is talk.... he and his staff laid an egg Saturday.

I've asked others... Give me one reason from what we saw Saturday that I should have faith that he's "the guy" to win championships at UT. No one else has given me a reason. Maybe you will.

I WANT to believe. I am NOT making any kind of final judgment. But what we saw Saturday coaching wise is NOT distinguishable in quality from what we have seen through Fulmer's decline and Dooley's tenure.

Can you tell me anything of real substance that shows a break from the past results?

 

[NMVol]

Didn't Majors start the season 0-6 in 1988?

 

[sjt18]

Right and he was brought into revitalize a struggling UT program. Took him awhile and it took one of his assistance to get over the NC hump.

I don't deny at all that it could take time... but it will take the right coach. RESULTS, not words or style, demonstrate who the right coach is. This past Saturday from a gameday coaching and gameweek planning pov... was just more of the same BS we've been suffering through.

 

[NMVol]

I don't deny at all that it could take time... but it will take the right coach. RESULTS, not words or style, demonstrate who the right coach is. This past Saturday from a gameday coaching and gameweek planning pov... was just more of the same BS we've been suffering through.

I know we have been through this before and have yet to start to make the ascent. No matter what our past experience might be, I am thinking a coach gets more than 3 games to get it together.

 

[sjt18]

Didn't Majors start the season 0-6 in 1988?

Yep. Finished with 5 straight wins. Largest margin of loss was 32. He followed that up in 89 with a 11-1-1 record.

Based on the returning roster and how many young players will play critical roles next fall... I just don't think that will play out for Jones in the same way.

 

[NMVol]

Yep. Finished with 5 straight wins. Largest margin of loss was 32. He followed that up in 89 with a 11-1-1 record.

Based on the returning roster and how many young players will play critical roles next fall... I just don't think that will play out for Jones in the same way.

Well it really can't given that we are 2-1.

Edit: The question I was responding to was whether there are programs that are historically up that have had lean years and the fact is the Vols have been through some lean years.

 

[sjt18]

I know we have been through this before and have yet to start to make the ascent. No matter what our past experience might be, I am thinking a coach gets more than 3 games to get it together.

Please don't understand. Jones MUST get at least 3 years. You can't fire coaches after a season or two unless they do something really, really stupid or illegal.

Just like I did for Fulmer and Dooley, I will ALWAYS argue for Jones to get his fair shot to make it work. I am just REALLY disappointed in the performance of the coaches in the game Saturday. We came to anticipate it from Dooley and even Fulmer against top tier opponents... but I hope we never accepted it. I am just struggling with why so many here are willing to accept it from Jones.

And I am not complaining that he didn't win. I could maybe even swallow the margin... if it had been competitive for a couple of qtrs. It wasn't... by a long stretch.

ALOT of double standards being applied around here too... but that's probably a rabbit trail for a later date.

 

[NMVol]

Please don't understand. Jones MUST get at least 3 years. You can't fire coaches after a season or two unless they do something really, really stupid or illegal.

Just like I did for Fulmer and Dooley, I will ALWAYS argue for Jones to get his fair shot to make it work. I am just REALLY disappointed in the performance of the coaches in the game Saturday. We came to anticipate it from Dooley and even Fulmer against top tier opponents... but I hope we never accepted it. I am just struggling with why so many here are willing to accept it from Jones.

And I am not complaining that he didn't win. I could maybe even swallow the margin... if it had been competitive for a couple of qtrs. It wasn't... by a long stretch.

ALOT of double standards being applied around here too... but that's probably a rabbit trail for a later date.

You know I get that and I think observations about what went wrong and whether the issues are fixable are to be expected. I didn't particularly enjoy the way we performed and had questions about the scheme but I am ready to let it play out from here, bumps and all. And not saying I will take the bumps without comment.

 

[sjt18]

Well it really can't given that we are 2-1.

I was talking specifically about him following up a potential bad year this year with an 11 win season next year.

Edit: The question I was responding to was whether there are programs that are historically up that have had lean years and the fact is the Vols have been through some lean years.

Yes. I think I responded in that context. All programs have done it. Sometimes they find the right guy quickly. Sometimes it is decades. How many years were there between McKay and Carroll at USC? They had some "good" years in that span but weren't a national power.

I am looking for specific, tangible, demonstrated reasons to believe that Jones is the right guy to get it done at UT. I don't see anything he did last Saturday to latch on to.

 

[NMVol]

I was talking specifically about him following up a potential bad year this year with an 11 win season next year.



Yes. I think I responded in that context. All programs have done it. Sometimes they find the right guy quickly. Sometimes it is decades. How many years were there between McKay and Carroll at USC? They had some "good" years in that span but weren't a national power.

I am looking for specific, tangible, demonstrated reasons to believe that Jones is the right guy to get it done at UT. I don't see anything he did last Saturday to latch on to.

For now I am looking at the discipline that is keeping turnovers and penalties low. It may not be much but it is a start.

Edit: You know its things like no running plays for negative yardage against Oregon. One thing at a time. I guess one might even say brick by brick.

 

[MedicT]

Jones is VERY limited in what he can do to fix the problems he faces this year and for that matter next. Coach Jones said it not me, "recruit, Recruit, RECRUIT."

 

[sjt18]

For now I am looking at the discipline that is keeping turnovers and penalties low. It may not be much but it is a start.

My opinion going all the way back to the discussions about Fulmer being fired or not was that UT MUST have a coach that can outcoach top tier coaches and programs. Recruiting disadvantages necessitate that. Great players are more likely to leave home to play for great coaches... and great coaches can get more out of average players.

Great players aren't going to leave home to play for a coach no better than the ones at in-state schools... and an average coach is always going to lose against top tier programs and coaches.


I HATE Florida. But I have to respect their determination to get the right coach and not mess around. Zook had a winning record. He took over UF after Spurrier's Gators had lost some of their mojo. He showed "progress" and lost only once his last year by more than a TD. By all accounts, he recruited great... and they still fired him. At the end of the day, he didn't win.

UT has to become that demanding.

 

[GrowVol]

Dooley would have just come out and said our players suck. Then he would have looked to the reporters to give him a solution. He was the quickest to throw our players under the bus.. Coach Jones looks towards what we have to do to improve. He gives honest and straight forward solutions to what we need to do as a team. We have a great Coach now, it is just going to take some time to dig us out of where we have been. He can handle a loss, then turn it into positive momentum.

 

[Fijivol72]

Jones is VERY limited in what he can do to fix the problems he faces this year and for that matter next. Coach Jones said it not me, "recruit, Recruit, RECRUIT."

That is exactly right, we play one of the toughest schedules in the country with no QB and a bunch of very young players. He is recruiting like there is no tomorrow unlike Dooley and his team is disciplined. We can argue game plan all day but even with a great plan if you have a QB who can't make a play it doesn't matter. I was mad we punted the ball with 4th and one but that is like crying about spilling gravy on your jacket after you spilled wine all over it. Jones will get it done but it is going to be a long season.

 

[sjt18]

Jones is VERY limited in what he can do to fix the problems he faces this year and for that matter next. Coach Jones said it not me, "recruit, Recruit, RECRUIT."

BS. There are holes... but coaches are paid to fill holes and scheme around weaknesses.

I have argued that this roster is better in talent than Dooley's first roster. It is less dependent on Fr and not as thin in as many positions so I believe it is. But let's say it is only equal... Dooley won six regular season games against a schedule every bit as difficult as this one. He should have won 8 if not for a couple of flukes.

Dooley complained about having to "recruit" as well.

This whole start to Jones' tenure is just WAY too deja vu to me.... and what will it suggest if he only wins six games like Dooley?

 

[Bigorangejumpsuit]

This brings up an interesting thought....has there ever been a team that's had as dramatic of a fall from grace as UT has had?

Notre Dame

 

[MedicT]

My opinion going all the way back to the discussions about Fulmer being fired or not was that UT MUST have a coach that can outcoach top tier coaches and programs. Recruiting disadvantages necessitate that. Great players are more likely to leave home to play for great coaches... and great coaches can get more out of average players.

Great players aren't going to leave home to play for a coach no better than the ones at in-state schools... and an average coach is always going to lose against top tier programs and coaches.


I HATE Florida. But I have to respect their determination to get the right coach and not mess around. Zook had a winning record. He took over UF after Spurrier's Gators had lost some of their mojo. He showed "progress" and lost only once his last year by more than a TD. By all accounts, he recruited great... and they still fired him. At the end of the day, he didn't win.

UT has to become that demanding.

....and how well has that worked out for UF? Steady decline?