Israel vs Palestinians

#25,752
#25,752
utvolpj said:
Oh sure, they're an ally. Will that lock us into the coming war with Iran? If only we had been warned about entanglements sooner
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Hopefully no war but the ME region is nothing but entanglements. Been that way for decades, but you knew that.
 
#25,754
#25,754
KB5252 said:
With enemies on every border denying arms to Israel means they lack the means to defend themselves. Or effectively prosecute the war they are fighting with Hamas and Hezbollah.

I can agree that the war against Hamas should effectively be complete and if hostages are released I believe it would be. The bigger threat has always been Iran and Hezbollah though.
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disagree
 
#25,756
#25,756
utvolpj said:
It's not the responsibility of the USA to arm everyone. They can learn to make their own, buy from someone else or maybe seek a peaceful resolution. And no matter what the arms manufacturing lobby says, it's not to create jobs in this country.
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I don't completely disagree with all of this. But with the current state of affairs, effectively WWIII already being fought, where are they to buy from?

How do you seek a peaceful resolution with those whose stated goal is to remove you completely, for your country to cease to exist?

Agreed completely in regards to MIC.
 
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#25,759
#25,759
KB5252 said:
I don't completely disagree with all of this. But with the current state of affairs, effectively WWIII already being fought, where are they to buy from?

How do you seek a peaceful resolution with those whose stated goal is to remove you completely, for your country to cease to exist?

Agreed completely in regards to MIC.
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I truly don't care where they buy it. Israel has fleeced the USA for far too long and I don't want my kids to be in danger because of it. Do you think the US MIC wants a peaceful resolution? Do you think the Israeli lobby wants to be forced to the table?

Their efforts to resolution should have started decades ago. Israel plays the victim better than anyone else. They need the conflict to continue or else that fades away. It's why they prop it up and bomb it at the same time.
 
#25,762
#25,762
utvolpj said:
I truly don't care where they buy it. Israel has fleeced the USA for far too long and I don't want my kids to be in danger because of it. Do you think the US MIC wants a peaceful resolution? Do you think the Israeli lobby wants to be forced to the table?

Their efforts to resolution should have started decades ago. Israel plays the victim better than anyone else. They need the conflict to continue or else that fades away. It's why they prop it up and bomb it at the same time.
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Israel provides much more than you give them credit for. I can understand however not wanting to to be entangled too much though.

The MIC wants what's good for business no doubt. The MIC isn't the hurdle in this conflict though. The hurdle is Palestinians want all of Israel and Israel isn't rolling to give it to them. Would Israel agree to a two state solution? I didn't know, I kind of doubt it. But I know Palestinians wouldn't, they've stated as much.

Israel would much rather have peace, Israel is about business much like their successful Arab neighbors are...... And conflict like this is bad for business.
 
#25,763
#25,763
McDad said:
This part:
...denying arms to Israel means they lack the means to defend themselves. Or effectively prosecute the war they are fighting with Hamas and Hezbollah.
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You think they could successfully defend themselves from Lebanon, Syria, Iran and to a lesser extent Egypt and Jordan without western support?
 
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#25,764
#25,764
KB5252 said:
You think they could successfully defend themselves from Lebanon, Syria, Iran and to a lesser extent Egypt and Jordan without western support?
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I do. I think it may be difficult initially. But Israel has the financial resources, the R and D resources, and the manufacturing resources to develop their own weaponry. Ukraine, as an example, is making great use of armed drones. In addition, I think Israel can successfully transition to that outcome with the weapon systems we've provided in the past.

This conflict will outlive all of us unless one of the two sides is completely eliminated or subjugated. We are foolish to part of it.
 
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#25,765
#25,765
KB5252 said:
Israel provides much more than you give them credit for. I can understand however not wanting to to be entangled too much though.

The MIC wants what's good for business no doubt. The MIC isn't the hurdle in this conflict though. The hurdle is Palestinians want all of Israel and Israel isn't rolling to give it to them. Would Israel agree to a two state solution? I didn't know, I kind of doubt it. But I know Palestinians wouldn't, they've stated as much.

Israel would much rather have peace, Israel is about business much like their successful Arab neighbors are...... And conflict like this is bad for business.
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You're looking at now instead of decades ago when they would have agreed to a good faith solution. Israel tried to scam them and got called out for it. This didn't start on 10/7 and isn't solely on the Palestinians. If you've listened to Netanyahu then you might revisit their true desire for peace. He's really been a driver against it.

The MIc isn't moved by anything but money. This is fully on them and Aipac. Our govt needs to free itself from these captors with way too much influence
 
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#25,766
#25,766
utvolpj said:
I truly don't care where they buy it. Israel has fleeced the USA for far too long and I don't want my kids to be in danger because of it. Do you think the US MIC wants a peaceful resolution? Do you think the Israeli lobby wants to be forced to the table?

Their efforts to resolution should have started decades ago. Israel plays the victim better than anyone else. They need the conflict to continue or else that fades away. It's why they prop it up and bomb it at the same time.
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So Israel wants a continual war versus peace?
 
#25,768
#25,768
Isreal is always ahead of the curve on warfare..this is history. Makes one wonder on what the CCP may be doing with all these imported electrics.
 
#25,769
#25,769
McDad said:
I do. I think it may be difficult initially. But Israel has the financial resources, the R and D resources, and the manufacturing resources to develop their own weaponry. Ukraine, as an example, is making great use of armed drones. In addition, I think Israel can successfully transition to that outcome with the weapon systems we've provided in the past.

This conflict will outlive all of us unless one of the two sides is completely eliminated or subjugated. We are foolish to part of it.
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I would worry that the drone heavy concept is best used in conventional war scenarios like what is happening Ukraine........... And less effective in loosely organized guerilla offensives like what we see Hezbollah and IJ using.
 
#25,770
#25,770
KB5252 said:
I would worry that the drone heavy concept is best used in conventional war scenarios like what is happening Ukraine........... And less effective in loosely organized guerilla offensives like what we see Hezbollah and IJ using.
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understood. and I have nothing to offer as a counter to your thoughts. I offered that as an example of how a motivated "underdog" can find weaponry when forced to do so.
 
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#25,772
#25,772
KB5252 said:
I would worry that the drone heavy concept is best used in conventional war scenarios like what is happening Ukraine........... And less effective in loosely organized guerilla offensives like what we see Hezbollah and IJ using.
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Maybe they could use the cheap drones on the aid convoys and save the expensive bombs for the Palestinians. Call me a problem solver
 
#25,775
#25,775
utvolpj said:
You're looking at now instead of decades ago when they would have agreed to a good faith solution. Israel tried to scam them and got called out for it. This didn't start on 10/7 and isn't solely on the Palestinians. If you've listened to Netanyahu then you might revisit their true desire for peace. He's really been a driver against it.

The MIc isn't moved by anything but money. This is fully on them and Aipac. Our govt needs to free itself from these captors with way too much influence
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I'm aware of bad faith agreements and actions from both sides going back decades.

Netanyahu is a flash in the pan. Much like our American system agreements and living up to them in good faith can be challenging because we turn over leadership so often......a blessing and a curse.

On the Palestinian side it's equally difficult, not everyone is on board, multiple factions willing to drag the other for power and influence etc.

Agree completely with the MIC, but that will never happen until we blow the current status quo up, even if we did blow it up I think they would gladly bulldoze us....... Basically we are screwed.
 
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