Israel vs Palestinians

[Gandalf]

I agree the "burying" in your examples are less unique and nefarious. Seems much more SOP for any lobbying group.

As I searched yesterday, I found several foreign interests (countries) which are actively lobbying our government. In that way, Israel...or Israel via proxy American citizens...isn't unique. They might be more active, better funded, and more effective but they aren't novel.

I sit in on a weekly meeting of the state chapter of one of the largest lobbying groups in the USA. They generally will be supportive of those who support their issues and give them access to their constituency and special opportunities that can help the elected or appointed official get good press or recognition with voters. They have programs and field operatives running all throughout the state to do this. Sometimes they will organize (or we do it for them) protests against issues or legislation.

NEVER have they tried to oppo research someone or act like the political hatchet I was to full scale manipulate elections and try to knock people out or move beyond a very narrow political realm. My understanding is that AIPAC goes further and that is what makes them more feared among electeds. They are the kind of people who will spend money to do oppo research and then leak it to social media at the most in-opportune time or get the Feds looking into your parents business, etc.

Mind you, they are not the only ones. There is a certain US Senator who uses a US Attorney's office to go after his political opponents (not just those in the other party but MOSTLY those in his own party who were not following his line). I had a congresswoman tell me that all of them were just keeping their heads down because nobody knew when the next shoe would drop.

So yeah, its not unique - but its one of those things where I guess I feel slightly differently about it when it is foreign directed instead of our own.

 

[KB5252]

Absolutely not. Just saying you can criticize Jewish people and call them out for being corrupt and that doesn’t constitute antisemitism.

Fair enough, the way that sentence was structured it could be taken a couple of ways. Just wanted to clarify.

 

[CobbVol]

That's as tired an excuse as there is.... It's exactly this false reasoning that the establishment uses to give you the illusion of choice. That may be true for one ....or two election cycles but there are just as many people who lean left that feel these candidates don't represent them....... None of us are that special, people on the left and right have much more in common beyond the wedge issues.

The reality is simple. In a little over 30 days a binary choice is going to be made on who governs our country for the next 4-8 years. Unfortunately, that is a fact.

 

[McDad]

I’ll attempt to refrain from the name calling.

People’s inability to understand the basic concept of Free Speech, and what it actually is, admittedly gets my dander up.

Appreciate it. Especially when dander is elevated.

 

[McDad]

Absolutely not. Just saying you can criticize Jewish people and call them out for being corrupt and that doesn’t constitute antisemitism.

True. We should all be free to critique who and what we want.

And there are those who are not prejudiced or bigoted but repeat prejudiced speech without much thought. Not saying you are doing that, just saying it happens.

 

[Orangeburst]

Appreciate it. Especially when dander is elevated.

you are Head and Shoulders above most.

 

[85SugarVol]

True. We should all be free to critique who and what we want.

And there are those who are not prejudiced or bigoted but repeat prejudiced speech without much thought. Not saying you are doing that, just saying it happens.

And there are those that don’t believe bigoted speech even exists.

 

[McDad]

I sit in on a weekly meeting of the state chapter of one of the largest lobbying groups in the USA. They generally will be supportive of those who support their issues and give them access to their constituency and special opportunities that can help the elected or appointed official get good press or recognition with voters. They have programs and field operatives running all throughout the state to do this. Sometimes they will organize (or we do it for them) protests against issues or legislation.

NEVER have they tried to oppo research someone or act like the political hatchet I was to full scale manipulate elections and try to knock people out or move beyond a very narrow political realm. My understanding is that AIPAC goes further and that is what makes them more feared among electeds. They are the kind of people who will spend money to do oppo research and then leak it to social media at the most in-opportune time or get the Feds looking into your parents business, etc.

Mind you, they are not the only ones. There is a certain US Senator who uses a US Attorney's office to go after his political opponents (not just those in the other party but MOSTLY those in his own party who were not following his line). I had a congresswoman tell me that all of them were just keeping their heads down because nobody knew when the next shoe would drop.

So yeah, its not unique - but its one of those things where I guess I feel slightly differently about it when it is foreign directed instead of our own.

This insight is validating. It supports the notion that AIPAC is stronger than others even if their monetary amounts are middling.

Thanks.

 

[KB5252]

The reality is simple. In a little over 30 days a binary choice is going to be made on who governs our country for the next 4-8 years. Unfortunately, that is a fact.

It is but have you noticed not that much ever seems to change?...... It's almost as if the people we elect to run the country are only figure heads.

 

[McDad]

And there are those that don’t believe bigoted speech even exists.

Also true. There are some who aren't bigoted but say bigoted things. They are some who don't feel it is particulary untrue and therefore can't be bigoted.

A few months ago I met an openly racists man. Dropped the N word several times. Then spoke fondly of his black friend of thirty years he used to work with. He spoke virurently racists things but didn't consider himself racist...he was speaking "truth". It is a weird dynamic.

 

[ButchPlz]

To boil it down, here's where I've got an issue. I've said repeatedly here that I take issue with how much we send Ukraine, too, especially while American infrastructure, emergency response, etc. is approaching disaster levels.



If you look at most of those countries, the majority are underdeveloped or undeveloped, with the exception of the top 2. I think seeing money going out like this makes everyone question why. In Israel's case, is it purely the Israel lobby, or is there something else? Here's the chart since the 1940s.



Something sticks out about the countries on this list. I think this is why Israel and Israel-based PACs get targeted. And I think it's beyond fair to ask questions about all of our tax dollar usage. Nobody would call someone racist or anti-whatever for questioning funding that goes to the various UN programs, would they? If you're at the top, you should expect questions. It's not anti-semitic to wonder where your money's going.

EDIT: this also does not include actual US activities in support of these countries. US troops stationed for "stability" in Africa don't get included here. The intelligence and military resources we've deployed in hostage situations both in Israel and other countries are not "aid". How much money is going to countries around the world for these things?

 

[TVOLS]

I've been wondering today about F35 tech falling in enemy hands. Does Israel fire standoff weapons or do they actually go into Iranian airspace? Iran could get a lucky shot off like in Kosovo with the F117. Which of course that was Nato's fault developing a pattern.

 

[Vol737]

We don’t have to use our military we just need to take the handcuffs off Israel. Having that known would deter Iran.

I think Israel doesn’t care much for our handcuffs with this admin. They’ve got one glove off already. The next one to come off makes all of this an entirely different ball game, imo.

 

[Vol737]

you are Head and Shoulders above most.

Oh, don’t get him started, @Orangeburst! Smh

 

[SpaceCoastVol]

I think Israel doesn’t care much for our handcuffs with this admin. They’ve got one glove off already. The next one to come off makes all of this an entirely different ball game, imo.

Since Bibi and Puddinhead aren't even talking, I would say the handcuffs are pretty much non existent. As a matter of fact, I think Bibi gave Puddinhead the middle finger. Especially now.

Biden's administration is a complete failure.

 

[Orangeburst]

Oh, don’t get him started, @Orangeburst! Smh

he be all lathered now..rinse and repeat.

 

[85SugarVol]

Also true. There are some who aren't bigoted but say bigoted things. They are some who don't feel it is particulary untrue and therefore can't be bigoted.

A few months ago I met an openly racists man. Dropped the N word several times. Then spoke fondly of his black friend of thirty years he used to work with. He spoke virurently racists things but didn't consider himself racist...he was speaking "truth". It is a weird dynamic.

And some that misconstrue Freedom of Speech with blanket protections for bigoted speech.

Freedom of Speech protects you from reprisal from the State.
It does not protect you from engaging in openly bigoted speech in say the workplace.

A difficult concept for some.

 

[Orangeslice13]

Nothing's difficult- you're the one telling me words are problematic. If you support and defend the rights of people to say what they want, why are you constantly posting calling people anti-semetic? Insulting and bleating about "problematic" phrases is the first step to shutting people down.

You can lie to yourself all you want about being cool with freedom and free speech. You can even get confused and ramble and think you've "gotten" all of us. You still aren't calling me what you really want to call me (nut up big boy!), and I guarantee you wouldn't stand up and take (or send) a bullet for someone that wants to say something as simple as "AIPAC owns a lot of Congress". You're the definition of a keyboard warrior. It's cute, in a kitten hobbling around with a cast on kind of way.

Hold on.
Isn’t he allowed to say what he’s thinking? Free speech and whatnot.

 

[Vol8188]

Nothing's difficult- you're the one telling me words are problematic. If you support and defend the rights of people to say what they want, why are you constantly posting calling people anti-semetic? Insulting and bleating about "problematic" phrases is the first step to shutting people down.

You can lie to yourself all you want about being cool with freedom and free speech.

lol you think someone is anti free speech if they call you antisemitic based on your speech?

That’s not how that works.

 

[ButchPlz]

Hold on.
Isn’t he allowed to say what he’s thinking? Free speech and whatnot.

Yes, I requested of him to say precisely what he really wanted to say. Repeatedly. It took him a half dozen posts to work himself up to it, and if he wants to call people anti-semitic and racist, he can. I simply appreciate when people are honest about why they're doing it and honest with themselves.

The reality is he's not as big of a fan of "free speech" as he thinks.

 

[Vol737]

Since Bibi and Puddinhead aren't even talking, I would say the handcuffs are pretty much non existent. As a matter of fact, I think Bibi gave Puddinhead the middle finger. Especially now.

Biden's administration is a complete failure.

Bibi is probably right to feel like they’re all alone, regardless of words from DC. Their response to Iran could be very telling. The fire could spread rapidly. I think Iran is delusional if they think it’s over.

 

[Vol737]

he be all lathered now..rinse and repeat.

Maybe I should’ve said “don’t get yourself started.” Well played, however.

 

[Orangeslice13]

Yes, I requested of him to say precisely what he really wanted to say. Repeatedly. It took him a half dozen posts to work himself up to it, and if he wants to call people anti-semitic and racist, he can. I simply appreciate when people are honest about why they're doing it and honest with themselves.

The reality is he's not as big of a fan of "free speech" as he thinks.

It’s interesting what people say when they think they’re not being antisemitic. I don’t waste a lot of time calling people out for it as it doesn’t do any good.
Often you (generic you not you personally) think you’re not be racist but I’ve heard the tropes way too many times to ignore it. I don’t call many out for it but it’s pretty obvious who they are.
I figured out a long time ago it’s easier to know who the **** people are if I let them speak

 

[Vol8188]

Yes, I requested of him to say precisely what he really wanted to say. Repeatedly. It took him a half dozen posts to work himself up to it, and if he wants to call people anti-semitic and racist, he can. I simply appreciate when people are honest about why they're doing it and honest with themselves.

The reality is he's not as big of a fan of "free speech" as he thinks.

He doesn’t like what you said, so he’s anti free speech.

You don’t like what he said…by your own standard doesn’t that make you antifree speech?

If so, perhaps the issue isn’t his views on free speech but rather your own standard

 

[Gandalf]

@McDad Hahahahaha. Cant make this up. So one of my partners JUST calls me and asks my help on boosting a fundraiser at his house for a congressman (a black guy not even in that district) organized by ..... AIPAC! because as my partner is saying, he has been a phenomenal friend to Israel and he isnt even Jewish. Nothing nefarious about this of course and pretty SOP for many organizations. This partner certainly is very pro-America and I seriously doubt he is taking marching orders from Tel Aviv but many of the Jews here in the USA do honestly feel like Jews are at war. But it does show you a little slice on how it works if you are on AIPAC's good side.

Mind you, we have a former Jewish congressman in the firm as well as a former senior leader of the World Jewish Congress, but we are not strictly a Jewish shop and have all kinds.