I've hesitated to post this thread, but someone has to speak out.

[Majors]

I've never claimed the mother doesn't feel pain.

I'm confident that I trust science a good deal more than you.

Not sure you can say you trust science a good deal more than me or anyone here. You seem to pick and choose parts of science to trust.

 

[creekdipper]

I've never claimed the mother doesn't feel pain.

I'm confident that I trust science a good deal more than you.

Actually, you don't. You used the term "magically" when identifying the process of becoming human.

Now you can go post a definition of "magic" that shows that term to be synonymous with science...or vice versa.

Best of luck in your search!

 

[creekdipper]

I'm not pro-choice I'm just anti-ban. I do think there has to be a hard limit on when it's no longer an option, I just don't know exactly at what stage that is.

Respectfully, saying that you are "anti-ban" results in exactly the same circumstances as being "pro-choice."

Think how you would react if someone said, "I'm not pro-slavery. I'm just anti-abolition."

What effect would that stance have upon slaves? Make them feel better about their plight?

 

[luthervol]

I don't think so. To you 'science' means the issue is settled. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Change my mind.

I'm not concerned with changing your mind.
I believe their are very few issues that are settled.
I'm about as far away from black and white as you can get.
I see the world almost entirely in shades of gray.
Continuums.....that's a pretty much how I view most things.
Now the PF does have a number of posters who are on the opposite extreme who see almost every issue as black or white.

 

[luthervol]

How many genders are there?

Don't know and don't really care.
But the answer completely depends on how you define gender.
Give me your definition and I'll give you my answer for that specific definition.

 

[creekdipper]

Magic certainly does involve a lot of grey areas.

 

[luthervol]

Actually, you don't. You used the term "magically" when identifying the process of becoming human.

Now you can go post a definition of "magic" that shows that term to be synonymous with science...or vice versa.

Best of luck in your search!

lol..........
Please go back and find that post and provide it for all to see.

 

[hog88]

Respectfully, saying that you are "anti-ban" results in exactly the same circumstances as being "pro-choice."

Think how you would react if someone said, "I'm not pro-slavery. I'm just anti-abolition."

What effect would that stance have upon slaves? Make them feel better about their plight?

That's an apples to oranges comparison.

I would council anyone not to get an abortion, I abhor the practice but oppose a complete ban. A complete ban on the practice will not end it. I've always found it puzzling that the most vocal "pro-life" advocates do nothing in regards to making adoption a more viable option and generally support the death penalty.

 

[luthervol]

Is a dandelion seed which contains all of the DNA and an embryo alive or not?
Is the seed a dandelion or is it a dandelion seed?

My answer will remain the same.....it's a developmental process....a continuum. There is no exact moment when it magically and instantly goes from not a dandelion to a dandelion.
Sort of the same with humans.

Actually, you don't. You used the term "magically" when identifying the process of becoming human.

Now you can go post a definition of "magic" that shows that term to be synonymous with science...or vice versa.

Best of luck in your search!

Don't bother. I did it for you.

 

[creekdipper]

The 75% of zygotes that do not even make it to the 6 week mark - straight ticket to heaven?

That depends upon one's theological views. If people are truly interested, we can have that discussion. I have a partular yet not definitive view. Others may have different views.

Since you say you don't have any particular belief in "souls," it would appear that the point is moot to you. So why ask?

 

[creekdipper]

That's an apples to oranges comparison.

I would council anyone not to get an abortion, I abhor the practice but oppose a complete ban. A complete ban on the practice will not end it. I've always found it puzzling that the most vocal "pro-life" advocates do nothing in regards to making adoption a more viable option and generally support the death penalty.

????

The most vocal pro-life people I know are extremely active in advocacy for adoption. That includes everthing from establishing and financially supporting adoption organizations that offer an alternative to abortion, financially supporting adoptions, actually adopting children themselves, supporting legislators who make adoption easier, etc.

Are you certain that the pro-life people you know are not strong suppirters and advocates of adoptions? Have you had those conversations with them?

As for "apples and oranges," in what way are the two situations not analogous?

 

[creekdipper]

Don't bother. I did it for you.

So there is no exact moment that separates "non-human" from "human," but you are confident that moment exists? You just can't identify it and therefore are just guessing?

So you believe there is a continuum along which you once were 15% human and then 33% human and later 68% human and then 92% human and finally 100% human...but you can't identify the actual gestation date at which each stage occurs? Is this the same process for everyone, or does one entity become human before others? Is it possible that some born organisms take extra time to achieve humanity? Are those who develop faster superior to the late-bloomers?

So many question with so much at stake. Or perhaps "humanity" is just overrated and we shouldn't be concerned about individuals who are easily replaceable.

 

[creekdipper]

lol..........
Please go back and find that post and provide it for all to see.

Your post can be taken different ways. Go back and reread what you wrote. It can easily be read that there is no moment when the magic takes place. That may not have been your intention, but that's how it came across.

 

[85SugarVol]

That's an apples to oranges comparison.

I would council anyone not to get an abortion, I abhor the practice but oppose a complete ban. A complete ban on the practice will not end it. I've always found it puzzling that the most vocal "pro-life" advocates do nothing in regards to making adoption a more viable option and generally support the death penalty.

I am confused by those who object to abortion on the foundation that we are depriving unborn children of their right to life, but support our system of capital punishment.

 

[luthervol]

That depends upon one's theological views. If people are truly interested, we can have that discussion. I have a partular yet not definitive view. Others may have different views.

Since you say you don't have any particular belief in "souls," it would appear that the point is moot to you. So why ask?

Because I think it would be a critical consideration for those who do believe in souls.
I don't see how anyone who believes in life after death (heaven/hell) could ever take that out of the equation.
It would (or at least should) be the paramount consideration.

 

[luthervol]

So there is no exact moment that separates "non-human" from "human," but you are confident that moment exists? You just can't identify it and therefore are just guessing?

So you believe there is a continuum along which you once were 15% human and then 33% human and later 68% human and then 92% human and finally 100% human...but you can't identify the actual gestation date at which each stage occurs? Is this the same process for everyone, or does one entity become human before others? Is it possible that some born organisms take extra time to achieve humanity? Are those who develop faster superior to the late-bloomers?

So many question with so much at stake. Or perhaps "humanity" is just overrated and we shouldn't be concerned about individuals who are easily replaceable.

No there is not exact moment - and I don't think an exact moment exists.

That's why I have always maintained Roe vs. Wade is genius.

 

[hog88]

????

The most vocal pro-life people I know are extremely active in advocacy for adoption. That includes everthing from establishing and financially supporting adoption organizations that offer an alternative to abortion, financially supporting adoptions, actually adopting children themselves, supporting legislators who make adoption easier, etc.

Are you certain that the pro-life people you know are not strong suppirters and advocates of adoptions? Have you had those conversations with them?

As for "apples and oranges," in what way are the two situations not analogous?

The vocal pro-life people I know are not doing anything and are ardent law and order death penalty supporters.

 

[luthervol]

Your post can be taken different ways. Go back and reread what you wrote. It can easily be read that there is no moment when the magic takes place. That may not have been your intention, but that's how it came across.

My point was there is NO MAGIC MOMENT.
How could my post have been taken any other way?

 

[hog88]

I am confused by those who object to abortion on the foundation that we are depriving unborn children of their right to life, but support our system of capital punishment.

Same here. While my objection to the death penalty comes from distrust in the judicial system I don’t see how people can be pro-life and pro-state killing.

 

[RikidyBones]

That's an apples to oranges comparison.

I would council anyone not to get an abortion, I abhor the practice but oppose a complete ban. A complete ban on the practice will not end it. I've always found it puzzling that the most vocal "pro-life" advocates do nothing in regards to making adoption a more viable option and generally support the death penalty.

I'm not sure how you can be so adamant on individual rights but dismiss an unborn child as one who doesn't carry the right to live as you do.

In case you're wondering, I am against the death penalty and want the money given to planned Parenthood to be given to adoption agencies and make it easier to adopt for all sides.

 

[hog88]

I'm not sure how you can be so adamant on individual rights but dismiss an unborn child as one who doesn't carry the right to live as you do.

In case you're wondering, I am against the death penalty and want the money given to planned Parenthood to be given to adoption agencies and make it easier to adopt for all sides.

I look at like I do the WoDs. Completely banning the practice won’t stop it, just drive it back underground and cause more lives to be lost than saved. There needs to be a point in the pregnancy where abortion is no longer an option but I can’t say exactly when that is. Somewhere in the 5-8 week range.

 

[85SugarVol]

Same here. While my objection to the death penalty comes from distrust in the judicial system I don’t see how people can be pro-life and pro-state killing.

Same. Our system is fallible.

I have no moral objection to capital punishment (in a vacuum).
I have a moral objection to a system that gets it wrong.

It is the ultimate deprivation of liberty.

 

[C-south]

Don't know and don't really care.
But the answer completely depends on how you define gender.
Give me your definition and I'll give you my answer for that specific definition.

What I figured.

 

[luthervol]

What I figured.

Why are you afraid to define gender?
By some definitions, the answer could very well be 2.
By other definitions, the answer would be different.
Why is that such a hard concept?
And why is it even important?

 

[C-south]

Why are you afraid to define gender?
By some definitions, the answer could very well be 2.
By other definitions, the answer would be different.
Why is that such a hard concept?
And why is it even important?

It is two. It’s that simple. Based on this thread I’m sure your ear may identify as a lot of things but there are only two genders aside from physical birth defects. The rest is defined as mental illness.