I've hesitated to post this thread, but someone has to speak out.

I'm not a fan of boycotting venues because of political issues. If OK wants to pass such a law, that's their prerogative just as CO's recent measure is theirs. It's not the NCAA's or any other organization's place to tell a state or city how to legislate.

They’re not telling a city or state how to legislate, only that they’ll choose to do business elsewhere based on how a particular city or state legislates.

No different than people here advocating boycotting Nike or Adidas for political reasons, or LGBT activists boycotting Chick Fil’A based on its founder’s religious beliefs.
 
You sound just like the slave owners did when they were discussing why they had to right to murder black kids back then too.

Not fully human, right…..
I do think this "debate" may result in the highest ratio of ignorant posts. (just added yours)

Do you believe a zygote and a baby who was just delivered are equally human?
 
There is no single magic moment that separates individual human from not.
LOL. That's a non-sensical answer. You would like to resort to "magic" so you can dehumanize a fully human individual. There is a very clear biological moment that separates an egg with potential for life into a zygote. There are afterwards various stages of development. At each point, you have a LIVING human being with its own unique DNA, metabolism, and development.
To claim otherwise is stupid.
No. It is quite intelligent to approach this issue from an objective, science based point of view to determine a RATIONAL basis for declaring the beginning of life for legal purposes. What is stupid beyond all measure is the idea that the answer to that question can be left up to the whims of the mother or someone pushing a political agenda.

Some claim it's when the baby is birthed, some claim it's at the point when an egg is fertilized by a sperm.
I find them equally indefensible positions.
Not really. Very shortly after fertilization you have a unique living, human entity. That's fully defensible.

I think there are other positions that are defensible from a biological standpoint. I think there is a better case for terminating a pregnancy with a "morning after" drug that acts on the zygote. It is slightly less but IMO still an argument that can be made to terminate the pregnancy before cellular specialization starts (around day 5). Pregnancy from a medical pov does not start until implantation which occurs 8 to 10 days after fertilization. Based on this and estimates that 30% to maybe even 80% of embryos do not implant... I think you can make a pretty good argument that we should not "assume" pregnancy until after 10 days. To me that would make "blind" procedures to assure pregnancy does not occur a possibly reasonable dividing point.

I'm not a hardcore "from conception" person. I think we can and should come up with an objective basis for the legal definition of the beginning of life. But the moment you introduce the completely false narrative of the woman's "choice" that all breaks down. Pro-lifers are often characterized as the unbending side of this argument and some are. However, it is the "pro-choice" side that almost universally fights against a medical determination for the beginning of life.

I think most reasonable people would admit that a newly delivered baby is just a tad more human than a zygote.
Really? How so? Let's test drive that argument. Is a 5 year old "a tad" more human than a new born? What makes them human? Does size make someone more or less human? Level of development? Environment (or location)? Level of dependency?

None of those things make someone more or less human.

If we are to have a "compromise" on any point after conception then it needs to be rational. I would say that the beginning of pregnancy isn't a bad point. By the time of the first heartbeat however... I don't think there is a reasonable question as to whether you are dealing with a living person that should be afforded protection.

Which means there is a developmental process......or a continuum if you will.
Roe vs. Wade was genius in the way they addressed this.
No it wasn't. Not even close. It completely ignored the MOST important aspect of the whole issue- when does life legally begin. It is the worst decision in the history of the court followed closely by the homosexual marriage issue. I don't say that simply because I disagree with those things from a "moral" standpoint. I say it because the court literally conjured new rights out of thin air. I disagree with abortion but am perfectly satisfied with letting the people of California through their legislature implement different laws than Missouri. Same with marriage except I think SCOTUS missed a GREAT opportunity to force government OUT of what is historically a religious institution and ALWAYS a contract based on relationships that the government should NOT assume interest in.

States could easily convert to a civil contract structure allowing any two people of any relation to create a household and determine the terms of their own contract with regard to property, child custody, guardianship, etc.


I am really not interested in stuffing one way of doing things down everyone else's throat. I am interested in protecting the rights and liberties of everyone... which protect my own.
 
They’re not telling a city or state how to legislate, only that they’ll choose to do business elsewhere based on how a particular city or state legislates.

No different than people here advocating boycotting Nike or Adidas for political reasons, or LGBT activists boycotting Chick Fil’A based on its founder’s religious beliefs.
Essentially they are and are using a government sponsored or facilitated monopoly to do so. They aren't acting as individuals but on behalf of a large number of people and institutions... some of which are government entities. Their rules for discriminating are and should be different.
 
There is no single magic moment that separates individual human from not.
To claim otherwise is stupid.
Some claim it's when the baby is birthed, some claim it's at the point when an egg is fertilized by a sperm.
I find them equally indefensible positions.
I think most reasonable people would admit that a newly delivered baby is just a tad more human than a zygote.
Which means there is a developmental process......or a continuum if you will.
Roe vs. Wade was genius in the way they addressed this.
So…..if the development process continues after birth and you (seem) to be claiming that being fully human is a continuum NOT fully completed until development ceases, are you saying it’s no big deal if we terminate a human POST birth up until the point of adulthood? Your “logic” is really difficult to process at times.
We have to pick SOME point at which a person becomes human or else chaos results.
 
Well you failed miserably in your attempt to make that point.
So you do not believe there should be an exemption for rape and incest?
Failed miserably? Not at all. The point was made. You use victims of rape as a ploy. It's gross.

I don't think there should be an exemption and neither do you.
 
LOL. That's a non-sensical answer. You would like to resort to "magic" so you can dehumanize a fully human individual. There is a very clear biological moment that separates an egg with potential for life into a zygote. There are afterwards various stages of development. At each point, you have a LIVING human being with its own unique DNA, metabolism, and development.
No. It is quite intelligent to approach this issue from an objective, science based point of view to determine a RATIONAL basis for declaring the beginning of life for legal purposes. What is stupid beyond all measure is the idea that the answer to that question can be left up to the whims of the mother or someone pushing a political agenda.

Not really. Very shortly after fertilization you have a unique living, human entity. That's fully defensible.

I think there are other positions that are defensible from a biological standpoint. I think there is a better case for terminating a pregnancy with a "morning after" drug that acts on the zygote. It is slightly less but IMO still an argument that can be made to terminate the pregnancy before cellular specialization starts (around day 5). Pregnancy from a medical pov does not start until implantation which occurs 8 to 10 days after fertilization. Based on this and estimates that 30% to maybe even 80% of embryos do not implant... I think you can make a pretty good argument that we should not "assume" pregnancy until after 10 days. To me that would make "blind" procedures to assure pregnancy does not occur a possibly reasonable dividing point.

I'm not a hardcore "from conception" person. I think we can and should come up with an objective basis for the legal definition of the beginning of life. But the moment you introduce the completely false narrative of the woman's "choice" that all breaks down. Pro-lifers are often characterized as the unbending side of this argument and some are. However, it is the "pro-choice" side that almost universally fights against a medical determination for the beginning of life.

Really? How so? Let's test drive that argument. Is a 5 year old "a tad" more human than a new born? What makes them human? Does size make someone more or less human? Level of development? Environment (or location)? Level of dependency?

None of those things make someone more or less human.

If we are to have a "compromise" on any point after conception then it needs to be rational. I would say that the beginning of pregnancy isn't a bad point. By the time of the first heartbeat however... I don't think there is a reasonable question as to whether you are dealing with a living person that should be afforded protection.

No it wasn't. Not even close. It completely ignored the MOST important aspect of the whole issue- when does life legally begin. It is the worst decision in the history of the court followed closely by the homosexual marriage issue. I don't say that simply because I disagree with those things from a "moral" standpoint. I say it because the court literally conjured new rights out of thin air. I disagree with abortion but am perfectly satisfied with letting the people of California through their legislature implement different laws than Missouri. Same with marriage except I think SCOTUS missed a GREAT opportunity to force government OUT of what is historically a religious institution and ALWAYS a contract based on relationships that the government should NOT assume interest in.

States could easily convert to a civil contract structure allowing any two people of any relation to create a household and determine the terms of their own contract with regard to property, child custody, guardianship, etc.


I am really not interested in stuffing one way of doing things down everyone else's throat. I am interested in protecting the rights and liberties of everyone... which protect my own.
Well there it is. Luther's ignorance, inconsistencies and red herrings will undoubtedly show itself again, unfortunately.
 
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Essentially they are and are using a government sponsored or facilitated monopoly to do so. They aren't acting as individuals but on behalf of a large number of people and institutions... some of which are government entities. Their rules for discriminating are and should be different.

Respectfully disagree.
 
They’re not telling a city or state how to legislate, only that they’ll choose to do business elsewhere based on how a particular city or state legislates.

No different than people here advocating boycotting Nike or Adidas for political reasons, or LGBT activists boycotting Chick Fil’A based on its founder’s religious beliefs.
Like all boycotts on either side, it’s made up grandstanding. Disney isn’t ever leaving Florida
 
So…..if the development process continues after birth and you (seem) to be claiming that being fully human is a continuum NOT fully completed until development ceases, are you saying it’s no big deal if we terminate a human POST birth up until the point of adulthood? Your “logic” is really difficult to process at times.
We have to pick SOME point at which a person becomes human or else chaos results.
That's why Roe vs. Wade was genius.
 
Failed miserably? Not at all. The point was made. You use victims of rape as a ploy. It's gross.

I don't think there should be an exemption and neither do you.
A ploy?
That's simply a stupid accusation.
It's proof of the necessity.
 
Like all boycotts on either side, it’s made up grandstanding. Disney isn’t ever leaving Florida

I agree on both counts.

The economic impact of Disney leaving Florida, (Central Florida in particular) factoring in the parks, cruise line in Port Canaveral and resorts outside of Orlando would be devastating. You’d think no sitting governor wants that happening on his watch regardless of your politics.

Yet there’s no shortage of folks down here calling for Disney to leave over its opposition to the bill recently passed. There was also a vocal minority calling for a Disney boycott dating back to the origins of the “Gay Days” week in June some 30+ years ago.
 
I do think this "debate" may result in the highest ratio of ignorant posts. (just added yours)

Do you believe a zygote and a baby who was just delivered are equally human?

Dude you went the full spectrum from zygote to baby because your stance is stupid. After the first trimester you are ripping a fully formed body apart. It’s always follow the science with your like until the science doesn’t benefit you.
 
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I do think this "debate" may result in the highest ratio of ignorant posts. (just added yours)

Do you believe a zygote and a baby who was just delivered are equally human?


Let me follow up again so you fully understand my view of you:

Do you know the only people in American history who debated “what truly is a human person” were Democrat slave owners and racist who also stated AAs couldn’t survive on their own without help.

It’s 2022. Time to evolve and stop thinking like your great, great grandfather.
 
Let me follow up again so you fully understand my view of you:

Do you know the only people in American history who debated “what truly is a human person” were Democrat slave owners and racist who also stated AAs couldn’t survive on their own without help.

It’s 2022. Time to evolve and stop thinking like your great, great grandfather.
Jimmy Carter also used racism to win an election so…..
 
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Essentially they are and are using a government sponsored or facilitated monopoly to do so. They aren't acting as individuals but on behalf of a large number of people and institutions... some of which are government entities. Their rules for discriminating are and should be different.
Republicans should have thought about that before sponsoring Citizens United and subsequent corresponding legislation. Tough to put that paste back in the tube.
 
Republicans should have thought about that before sponsoring Citizens United and subsequent corresponding legislation. Tough to put that paste back in the tube.
Citizens United was 100% correct law. If Congress can stop the “speech” of companies you hate like fossil fuel companies, then government can also stop the speech of any other corporation like say CNN, MSNBC, or Disney. Liberals want to silence only a certain group of companies. Be glad we have Citizens United when you soon find yourself under a Republican President and Congress. It (along with the now vilified filibuster) will suddenly become your new best friend
 
Citizens United was 100% correct law. If Congress can stop the “speech” of companies you hate like fossil fuel companies, then government can also stop the speech of any other corporation like say CNN, MSNBC, or Disney. Liberals want to silence only a certain group of companies. Be glad we have Citizens United when you soon find yourself under a Republican President and Congress. It (along with the now vilified filibuster) will suddenly become your new best friend
Of course you view it as 100% correct law, but if it where “100% correct” it wouldn’t have had such a variety of dissenting opinions, and it wouldn’t be a continuing topic of debate over the past 100+ years. All the subsequent legislation opened the flood gates to essentially unlimited campaign finance, further entrenching our rotten political system in the swamp and cementing us into this god awful two party system.
 
Dude you went the full spectrum from zygote to baby because your stance is stupid. After the first trimester you are ripping a fully formed body apart. It’s always follow the science with your like until the science doesn’t benefit you.
Nice non-answer.
Understandable.
But I'm all on board with the "magic" of the first trimester.
In case anyone missed it the first 50 times, Roe vs. Wade was genius.
 
Let me follow up again so you fully understand my view of you:

Do you know the only people in American history who debated “what truly is a human person” were Democrat slave owners and racist who also stated AAs couldn’t survive on their own without help.

It’s 2022. Time to evolve and stop thinking like your great, great grandfather.
Thanks for clarifying.
You may have forgotten about the Founding Fathers....but you reside completely in the realm of convenient thought.

So are you stating that a zygote is as human as a newly delivered baby? Simple yes or no question.
I'll give you my answer......NO, they are not remotely equal.
Your turn.
 

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