Keystone Pipeline - a red line?

#177
#177
MG1968 said:
what's the truth?
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You can go down the list of selling points, one at a time. Somebody said that we really need the pipeline. Need it for what? We don't need it. There is more than enough pipeline to supply our needs, well into the future. We have an excess of capacity for supply of Canadian crude. TransCanada is building the pipeline to carry the oil to a free trade zone on the Gulf, where it will be refined and exported, tax free. So it is NOT going to increase our supply of oil. Also, it is NOT going to lower the price we pay for gas and diesel at the pump. Those prices will go up, relative to what they would have been. Why? Because the oil sold from Keystone will be sold at international Brent prices, which are higher than West Texas Intermediate or Canadian oil, without Keystone. That is the reason TransCanada is building the pipeline, to sell more oil by exporting it, at higher prices. I can go on and on about the lies to the American people about that pipeline.
 
#178
#178
I only examine it for its political value. I would imagine those poll numbers are correct because people are just about ready to believe anything that will cut energy costs.

Even if it won't.

And even if there are things to be done that would be cheaper and more effective.

I imagine for example that there is a huge and powerful lobby that would prefer we not improve hybrid technology, and that natural gas expansion be slowed.

So I take all claims, on both sides, with a grain of salt the size of Montana.
 
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#179
#179
FLVOL69 said:
Warren Buffet is transporting the oil via his rr.Thats the truth ..
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When Buffet bought those RRs, he told his investors that they were needed to carry a huge increase of material up to the oil well fields. Of course, the RRs don't want to run empty on the return trip. I've not punched the numbers, but that is what Buffet told his investors when he bought the RRs.
 
#180
#180
#181
#181
Grand Vol said:
That the pipeline will threaten 10% of the Western spotted jumping field mouse's habitat or something similar.

I have yet to hear a valid argument from the opposition besides "it's bad" or the normal drivel the eco-nazis put out.
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About the only people speaking against KXL are environmental lobbies. That is the reason you see environmental arguments. If you have yet to see or hear a valid economic argument against the pipeline, it is because politicians and media mouthpieces are just repeating TransCanada's public relations, most of which are lies. Republicans are doing most of the talking in support of the pipeline, but I have not seen one Democrat make opposing arguments. Almost everything said in favor of KXL is a lie, but Democrats are not exposing them. They did not even defend their own administration on this issue during the last election. They could have, but they didn't.
 
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#182
#182
Vol Main said:
About the only people speaking against KXL are environmental lobbies. That is the reason you see environmental arguments. If you have yet to see or hear a valid economic argument against the pipeline, it is because politicians and media mouthpieces are just repeating TransCanada's public relations, most of which are lies. Republicans are doing most of the talking in support of the pipeline, but I have not seen one Democrat make opposing arguments. Almost everything said in favor of KXL is a lie, but Democrats are not exposing them. They did not even defend their own administration on this issue during the last election. They could have, but they didn't.
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Enough people stand to make enough money that it's going to be really tough to find a lot of people in congress willing to criticize it.
 
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#183
#183
Build the pipeline now. Build it bigger actually. Hook up the Bakken to it. Expand the refineries in TX/LA. Our refineries are the cleanest and most efficient. If we increase refinery capacity 10% that's 1 million gallons of gasoline excess than what we use per day. Sell it to the highest bidder. Bring back US dollars. Increase exports. Help one of our best industry that employs 30+ million with well paying jobs with all types of skill sets. Secure a guaranteed oil source for the next 50+ years with a friendly neighbor. The oil is coming. Do you want Warren Buffett transporting it all at $20 a barrel via rail cars which are worse for the environment and more dangerous vs a pipeline charging $2 a barrel.
 
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#184
#184
Does anyone know why we don't build more refineries? I know the industry complains about regulations, and I'm sure that's an issue. I can't help but wonder if part of it is to keep gas prices high.
 
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#187
#187
lawgator1 said:
Enough people stand to make enough money that it's going to be really tough to find a lot of people in congress willing to criticize it.
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But the people making the money are going to be investors and mouthpieces in the PR industry, not real American workers. The job numbers are cooked. Almost all of the skilled labor will come in from Canada. None of the pipe will be made with American steel. It all comes from India, and it is low quality. Almost everything said in support of KXL is a lie. The Department of State has to rule that it is in the U.S. national interest. That would be a lie. What about it is in our interest? The purpose of the pipeline is to export the oil at higher prices. Once that pipeline connects to the refineries in the Gulf export zone, the oil now sold from Canada in mid-America will connect to KXL and sell at higher international prices. Who really believes that TransCanada is building the pipeline to sell its oil at lower prices?
 
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#188
#188
VolsNSkinsFan said:
They arent needed. We produce 9 million barrels of gasoline per day and use 8.7 million barrels
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That is a bizarrely complicated issue. One should bear in mind that the U.S. does export enough to affect domestic prices, according to the CIA and others. Companies can reduce prices by lowering exports. That is just an economic reality. Or, they can increase domestic prices by increasing exports. It's the law of supply and demand. Higher exports reduce domestic supply, which tends to increase price. Demand also varies, but varying the supply does influence the price.
 
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#189
#189
Vol Main said:
But the people making the money are going to be investors and mouthpieces in the PR industry, not real American workers. The job numbers are cooked. Almost all of the skilled labor will come in from Canada. None of the pipe will be made with American steel. It all comes from India, and it is low quality. Almost everything said in support of KXL is a lie. The Department of State has to rule that it is in the U.S. national interest. That would be a lie. What about it is in our interest? The purpose of the pipeline is to export the oil at higher prices. Once that pipeline connects to the refineries in the Gulf refineries, the oil now sold from Canada in mid-America will connect to KXL and sell at higher international prices. Who really believes that TransCanada is building the pipeline to sell its oil at lower prices?
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Yep, our gas and utilities will still be the same and go up as they always do.
 
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#190
#190
VolsNSkinsFan said:
Build the pipeline now. Build it bigger actually. Hook up the Bakken to it. Expand the refineries in TX/LA. Our refineries are the cleanest and most efficient. If we increase refinery capacity 10% that's 1 million gallons of gasoline excess than what we use per day. Sell it to the highest bidder. Bring back US dollars. Increase exports. Help one of our best industry that employs 30+ million with well paying jobs with all types of skill sets. Secure a guaranteed oil source for the next 50+ years with a friendly neighbor. The oil is coming. Do you want Warren Buffett transporting it all at $20 a barrel via rail cars which are worse for the environment and more dangerous vs a pipeline charging $2 a barrel.
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You are just repeating lies. "Bring back U.S. dollars." To whom? TransCanda owns the line, and it is a Canadian company. The refineries on the Gulf in the Free Trade Zone are majority foreign owned. Venezuela owns one of the two big ones contracting the KXL supply. Why do you want Venezuela to make more money? Our governments, local, state, and federal will not even collect any taxes on the shipment or sale of the oil. We don't need a new pipeline to supply the U.S. Buffet is going to fill up his rail cars regardless of whether KXL is built or not built.
 
#191
#191
lawgator1 said:
I only examine it for its political value. I would imagine those poll numbers are correct because people are just about ready to believe anything that will cut energy costs.

Even if it won't.

And even if there are things to be done that would be cheaper and more effective.

I imagine for example that there is a huge and powerful lobby that would prefer we not improve hybrid technology, and that natural gas expansion be slowed.

So I take all claims, on both sides, with a grain of salt the size of Montana.
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You got a problem with Alaska instead of Montana?

Here's the thing. No matter if it reduces our energy prices or not, it still will create short and long term jobs. And I'm sure both sides are wagging those numbers, but the one thing they agree on is it does produce jobs.

Trans Canada is going to sell the stuff no matter what. If not to us than to the Chinese who will take it to their refineries and use it. Me? I'd rather see our workers refining it and selling it.
 
#192
#192
lawgator1 said:
Does anyone know why we don't build more refineries? I know the industry complains about regulations, and I'm sure that's an issue. I can't help but wonder if part of it is to keep gas prices high.
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Because it's a huge nightmare to try to get one approved. Probably even worse now.

Richard Branson (of Virgin industries) tried some years ago. I can't remember where I saw the article, but he was talking about what a pain it was. And this is when he started going towards alternate fuels. But either way, he said it was a hot mess trying to get a refinery built in the US.
 
#193
#193
Companies build increased capacity in their established refineries. It happens all the time. However, building a new refinery from scratch is a different matter.
 
#194
#194
FYI, my thinking on this subject was very much like others here. I thought approval of KXL was a no brainer, even mailed the WH saying that approval should be expedited, to create jobs and to get the oil flowing. After that, I began looking into the subject and discovered that all of the sales points were false. I just kept looking into one issue of KXL after the other, until I drew conclusions different from what the politicians were saying, which was cooked up by a TransCanada consulting firm. PR companies decide what they need to say to win approval and then make up their lines. They do not look at the actual facts and then try to educate the public. That is just not what they do. The truth is largely irrelevant from start to finish. Most of the folks here think that is how things are generally, but for some reason, they don't think it is how things are on this issue. Well, that is how things are on this issue, big time.
 
#195
#195
Vol Main said:
You are just repeating lies. "Bring back U.S. dollars." To whom? TransCanda owns the line, and it is a Canadian company. The refineries on the Gulf in the Free Trade Zone are majority foreign owned. Venezuela owns one of the two big ones contracting the KXL supply. Why do you want Venezuela to make more money? Our governments, local, state, and federal will not even collect any taxes on the shipment or sale of the oil. We don't need a new pipeline to supply the U.S. Buffet is going to fill up his rail cars regardless of whether KXL is built or not built.
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Lies? Canada sells the oil to the refineries. Last I checked, Exxon and Valero (our largest refiners) are US owned and publicly traded. Increasing their ability to make more gasoline to the point the excess can be sold to the highest bidder is a great thing. Gasoline is liquid and everyone uses it. It's easily shipped and there is a market for it everywhere. Shipping it via rail car is much worse for the environment because they are open air loaded and unloaded which release fumes. They also crash and vaporize an entire town and 48 people which happened last year. Rail car is also 10x more expensive vs pipeline. People wonder why oil is expensive and it's because Warren charges $20 a barrel to ship oil.

Not building this is like telling Germany, no you can't store your gold in New York banks. It's like telling GM, you can't sell cars in Europe.
 
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#196
#196
lawgator1 said:
I am not familiar with their market dynamics, but if we produced 14 million gallons a day wouldn't the price go down?
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It would go down here and abroad because we would have demand met and storage full here and we would be supplying the world with our excess gasoline. We could do this for the next 50 years.
 
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#197
#197
VolsNSkinsFan said:
It would go down here and abroad because we would have demand met and storage full here and we would be supplying the world with our excess gasoline. We could do this for the next 50 years.
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I am not willing to undo all of the knots you are tying, but I will say that the above is wrong. TransCanada will not meet all of U.S. demand and then export the excess. That is NOT the purpose of building KXL. The purpose is NOT to increase Canadian supply for American consumption. The purpose is to ship as much Canadian oil as possible to the Gulf refineries FOR EXPORT. It is a lie to say that will increase our supply of oil and lower our costs at the pump. It will do the exact opposite. Please get that, so I won't need to repeat it...AGAIN.

1. “Keystone XL would divert Canadian oil from refineries in the Midwest to the Gulf Coast where it can be refined and exported. Many of these refineries are in Foreign Trade Zones where oil may be exported to international buyers without paying U.S. taxes.”4 2. “Keystone XL would be Canada’s first step in diversifying its energy market. The pipeline would divert large volumes of Canadian oil from the Midwest to the Gulf Coast, where it would be available for the first time to buyers on the world market. To sweeten the deal, many of the refineries on the Gulf Coast happen to be located in foreign trade zones, where they can export Canadian oil to the world market without paying U.S. taxes.”5 3. “The Port Arthur refinery operates as a Foreign Trade Zone (FTZ), which traditionally gives tax benefits to companies that use imported components to manufacture items within the United States. Usually refineries importing oil tax-free will still pay taxes when selling the refined products into the U.S. market. By both importing into and exporting from Port Arthur the company will avoid paying tax on the product sales.”6

from API.org
 
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#198
#198
I don't have time to be your librarian, but here is one article which names three Gulf refineries which are involved with Keystone...Motiva(Saudi ARAMCO and a Subsidiary of Royal Dutch Shell) Total, S.A.(France) and Valero(Texas company partnered with Citgo of Venezuela). Perhaps you can tell me how much Citgo still owns, if any. Citgo was a majority owner, but that might have changed.
Keystone XL benefits from taxpayer subsidies | Oil Change International
 
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#200
#200
W.TN.Orange Blood said:
:thumbsup: book it as a fact jack.
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So, you read post 197, which tells you that Keystone will divert Canadian oil from middle American refineries to the Gulf for export, and you think that is not what it will do. API is the source. That is the American Petroleum Institute. But you don't believe it.
 
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