Keystone Pipeline - a red line?

[W.TN.Orange Blood]

So, you read post 197, which tells you that Keystone will divert Canadian oil from middle American refineries to the Gulf for export, and you think that is not what it will do. API is the source. That is the American Petroleum Institute. But you don't believe it.

:blink: Oh well........:salute: sorry, carry on then w/your information on the subject.

 

[Vol Main]

:blink: Oh well........:salute: sorry, carry on then w/your information on the subject.

Look, I must have misunderstood everybody. I thought folks wanted me to answer the questions they were asking me. You guys can think whatever you want, but if we are talking to each other and I am reading and responding to what you say, then I would like to think that you are there also, reading and responding to what I post. Isn't that the way it is supposed to be, or am I expecting too much around here?

 

[W.TN.Orange Blood]

Look, I must have misunderstood everybody. I thought folks wanted me to answer the questions they were asking me. You guys can think whatever you want, but if we are talking to each other and I am reading and responding to what you say, then I would like to think that you are there also, reading and responding to what I post. Isn't that the way it is supposed to be, or am I expecting too much around here?

I don't know if you're misunderstanding anything. eace2: I said I was sorry & to carry on w/your information. You do whatever you think is necessary. Play like I'm not in the room.....k.

 

[Vol Main]

I don't know if you're misunderstanding anything. eace2: I said I was sorry & to carry on w/your information. You do whatever you think is necessary. Play like I'm not in the room.....k.

Oh yeah, OK. That'll be a lot of fun. :yahoo:

 

[VolsNSkinsFan]

I am not willing to undo all of the knots you are tying, but I will say that the above is wrong. TransCanada will not meet all of U.S. demand and then export the excess. That is NOT the purpose of building KXL. The purpose is NOT to increase Canadian supply for American consumption. The purpose is to ship as much Canadian oil as possible to the Gulf refineries FOR EXPORT. It is a lie to say that will increase our supply of oil and lower our costs at the pump. It will do the exact opposite. Please get that, so I won't need to repeat it...AGAIN.

1. “Keystone XL would divert Canadian oil from refineries in the Midwest to the Gulf Coast where it can be refined and exported. Many of these refineries are in Foreign Trade Zones where oil may be exported to international buyers without paying U.S. taxes.”4 2. “Keystone XL would be Canada’s first step in diversifying its energy market. The pipeline would divert large volumes of Canadian oil from the Midwest to the Gulf Coast, where it would be available for the first time to buyers on the world market. To sweeten the deal, many of the refineries on the Gulf Coast happen to be located in foreign trade zones, where they can export Canadian oil to the world market without paying U.S. taxes.”5 3. “The Port Arthur refinery operates as a Foreign Trade Zone (FTZ), which traditionally gives tax benefits to companies that use imported components to manufacture items within the United States. Usually refineries importing oil tax-free will still pay taxes when selling the refined products into the U.S. market. By both importing into and exporting from Port Arthur the company will avoid paying tax on the product sales.”6

from API.org

It's ILLEGAL to export oil. It's not illegal to export Gasoline. You keep saying "Oil". It's gasoline they are going to ship. Bring the oil to Texas and Louisiana and refine it here in US refineries. So what if they arent paying taxes on it. I don't care, there is all types of crap that flows through those ports untaxed. It's providing us a guaranteed supply of oil for our refineries and it expands the Oil & Gas industry which is our largest and pays very well for all types of skill sets from high school drop out to Doctorate in engineering..

Who cares if they export excess gasoline? GM exports excess cars we don't need and somehow we survive. We are a manufacturing country, let's do everything possible to expand our manufacturing base and increase exports. No Brainer

 

[W.TN.Orange Blood]

It's ILLEGAL to export oil. It's not illegal to export Gasoline. You keep saying "Oil". It's gasoline they are going to ship. Bring the oil to Texas and Louisiana and refine it here in US refineries. So what if they arent paying taxes on it. I don't care, there is all types of crap that flows through those ports untaxed. It's providing us a guaranteed supply of oil for our refineries and it expands the Oil & Gas industry which is our largest and pays very well for all types of skill sets from high school drop out to Doctorate in engineering..

Who cares if they export excess gasoline? GM exports excess cars we don't need and somehow we survive. We are a manufacturing country, let's do everything possible to expand our manufacturing base and increase exports. No Brainer

:thumbsup: book it as a fact jack.

 

[Vol Main]

Yeah fan, that's right. We are talking about exporting refined oil products. KXL is intended to ship Canadian bitumen to Gulf refineries, for processing and export. The stuff is going to be refined before it is shipped to China or Latin America or Europe. Guess what? The price of oil products sold in America is affected by the amount of oil products exported. I covered that in another post. If refineries in America export more diesel and gasoline, then the price of diesel and gasoline at the pump in America will go up. Some analysts say that Keystone will cause prices at the pump to go up around $.25 a gallon. That adds up to a lot of money for truckers and ordinary consumers. There is a very long list of oil products which will be affected. Higher energy costs do NOT help grow our industries. Higher costs do the exact opposite. They slow economic growth. You want to destroy our competitive advantage, by exporting it for higher profits for foreigners. Why won't you stand up for America and what is good for Americans?

 

[VolsNSkinsFan]

Yeah fan, that's right. We are talking about exporting refined oil products. KXL is intended to ship Canadian bitumen to Gulf refineries, for processing and export. The stuff is going to be refined before it is shipped to China or Latin America or Europe. Guess what? The price of oil products sold in America is affected by the amount of oil products exported. I covered that in another post. If refineries in America export more diesel and gasoline, then the price of diesel and gasoline at the pump in America will go up. Some analysts say that Keystone will cause prices at the pump to go up around $.25 a gallon. That adds up to a lot of money for truckers and ordinary consumers. There is a very long list of oil products which will be affected. Higher energy costs do NOT help to grow our industries. Higher costs do the exact opposite. They slow economic growth. You want to destroy our competitive advantage, by exporting it for higher profits for foreigners. Why won't you stand up for America and what is good for Americans?

If we are exporting gasoline that means we have enough here in the US to satisfy demand. If we are producing and exporting gasoline then we set the price for gasoline. Not the other way around. Sounds to me like you want China to supply us with gasoline. Id rather produce enough gasoline to supply us with our daily needs and supply the world with gasoline too.

 

[Septic]

If we are exporting gasoline that means we have enough here in the US to satisfy demand.

It doesn't mean that at all. In fact, the more the U.S. exports the higher the domestic prices increase.

Gasoline Prices Rise As U.S. Refineries Send More Fuel Overseas : NPR

If we are producing and exporting gasoline then we set the price for gasoline. Not the other way around.

By "we", who are you referring to? The largest single factor in gas prices is the inventory of crude that is being produced and OPEC's decisions on how much "should" be available.

Crude & gas costs are associated with demand, output, futures & speculation, refining costs, distribution costs etc.In no circumstance does it mean that if "we", (whoever that is) produce more crude and/or refine it here in the U.S. that the average Joe would see gas prices fall. It sounds good but that's just not how it works.

Don't fall victim to the political talking points on why this or that would be in 'murica's best interests. Follow the money, there is a reason why politicians shill for this stuff. The U.S. doesn't produce oil or gas, private company's do and they donate a ton of money to politicians who prop up their interests.

 

[VolsNSkinsFan]

Gasoline prices increased because world demand for it increased. Gasoline is a liquid product that is easily shipped, and there is a market for it everywhere. If Americans are only willing to spend $2.50 for a gallon but Europeans are willing to spend $3, gasoline is going to go to Europe. If we send them enough gasoline, their prices will go down, and since Gasoline is a worldwide product with worldwide markets, if there prices go down, so will ours

 

[Septic]

Gasoline prices increased because world demand for it increased. Gasoline is a liquid product that is easily shipped, and there is a market for it everywhere.

Not a ton of disagreement here, but your explanation of gas pricing just due to demand is incorrect. MANY other factors are involved as I noted previously.

If Americans are only willing to spend $2.50 for a gallon but Europeans are willing to spend $3, gasoline is going to go to Europe.

I'm not sure where you live, but I don't get to negotiate on what I'm willing to spend on gas. I pay what the pump tells me I'm going to pay. Maybe I'm misunderstanding your premise? Supply may increase as a result of higher prices, but the lower costs of fuel is a lagging indicator of decreased demand which often is followed by decreased crude output - these with many other factors keep prices in line with the supply and demand.

If we send them enough gasoline, their prices will go down, and since Gasoline is a worldwide product with worldwide markets, if there prices go down, so will ours

As evidenced by the link I put in my previous post, the contrary actually occurs. The more gas the U.S. company's export the higher U.S. prices get. If Europe's prices fall due to excess supply, global supply is simply reduced.

 

[VolsNSkinsFan]

Gasoline has a limited shelf life. If US is using 8.5 Million barrels of gasoline per day but we produce 9 million barrels, what do we do with the excess 500K barrels when storage is full? Light it on fire and watch it burn? No, we sell it to the highest bidder auction style, load it on a tanker and say thanks for the cash. If worldwide demand for gasoline increases, be prepared for higher prices here in the US since gasoline is a liquid and easily shipped and paid for.

You, me, all the glorious people of Volnation and this world set the price for gasoline. If its at $5 a gallon, Im not driving 500 miles to the beach. Im sure other volnation-ers and others in this world would do the same and stay home. If its at $3, Im going to the beach and dragging my boat with me.

 

[Septic]

Gasoline has a limited shelf life. If US is using 8.5 Million barrels of gasoline per day but we produce 9 million barrels, what do we do with the excess 500K barrels when storage is full? Light it on fire and watch it burn? No, we sell it to the highest bidder auction style, load it on a tanker and say thanks for the cash. If worldwide demand for gasoline increases, be prepared for higher prices here in the US since gasoline is a liquid and easily shipped and paid for.

You, me, all the glorious people of Volnation and this world set the price for gasoline. If its at $5 a gallon, Im not driving 500 miles to the beach. Im sure other volnation-ers and others in this world would do the same and stay home. If its at $3, Im going to the beach and dragging my boat with me.

I think you're still missing my point. $5 a gallon gas doesn't get to be $5 a gallon without some modicum of demand. But I believe you are still looking at gas/oil prices as strictly a economic supply and demand commodity. It's not. Does supply and demand affect prices, of course. But it's much more complicated than that.

What Determines Gas Prices?

 

[VolsNSkinsFan]

Right, you are proving my overall point here. Warren Buffet currently charges $20 a barrel to ship oil to the Gulf. A pipeline would charge $2. So that makes our gasoline cheaper automatically if we pipe it. Would you rather have Canada rail-car the oil to a Pacific port, load it onto a tanker, ship it to China, refine it there, then put gasoline into a Tanker to ship from China to California? Would that make gasoline more cheap or more expensive vs piping it to the Gulf at $2 a barrel, refine into gasoline, and excess sold to highest bidder.

 

[Septic]

Right, you are proving my overall point here. Warren Buffet currently charges $20 a barrel to ship oil to the Gulf. A pipeline would charge $2. So that makes our gasoline cheaper automatically if we pipe it. Would you rather have Canada rail-car the oil to a Pacific port, load it onto a tanker, ship it to China, refine it there, then put gasoline into a Tanker to ship from China to California? Would that make gasoline more cheap or more expensive vs piping it to the Gulf at $2 a barrel, refine into gasoline, and excess sold to highest bidder.

What is your overall point? You're kind of bouncing around. Now you're talking about the cost to ship crude and the cost of gasoline.

The bottom line is this, several studies and people who are far more knowledgeable about this subject have come to the conclusion that the pipeline will actually increase domestic fuel prices. Cheaper refined gas in America will result in it's sell off to regions where fuel is most expensive, creating a larger profit for the oil companies and their shareholders.

It's naive to think that U.S. oil companies will refine the oil here in the U.S. and then sell it more cheaply here in the U.S. because it's the right thing to do. Follow the money.

Your argument presupposes that oil and gas companies want to sell gasoline cheaper. Why would they want to do that? Having a cheaper distribution method is great for them but don't hold your breath that you'll see that kind of $18 a barrel savings at the pump.

 

[VolsNSkinsFan]

I want gasoline to be as cheap as possible. Shipping Oil from Canada to China for them to refine it and send us Gasoline is going to make it more expensive for all of us, guaranteed.

I want US companies to profit off of this, US citizens own stock in them, US citizens are employed by them. I want more business for US companies so they can A) hire more Americans B) return more profits to shareholders.

I dont really care what the price of gasoline is, you and I will set the price. I want Canadian crude refined in America, using US refineries, who are owned by US citizens and employ US citizens. How hard is that to comprehend?

 

[Vol Main]

I want gasoline to be as cheap as possible. Shipping Oil from Canada to China for them to refine it and send us Gasoline is going to make it more expensive for all of us, guaranteed.

I want US companies to profit off of this, US citizens own stock in them, US citizens are employed by them. I want more business for US companies so they can A) hire more Americans B) return more profits to shareholders.

I dont really care what the price of gasoline is, you and I will set the price. I want Canadian crude refined in America, using US refineries, who are owned by US citizens and employ US citizens. How hard is that to comprehend?

Wow. Talk about a man wearing blinders and living in an alternate unreality. You ignore one fact after another in order to entertain your false fantasies.

 

[VolsNSkinsFan]

Wow. Talk about a man wearing blinders and living in an alternate unreality. You ignore one fact after another in order to entertain your false fantasies.

I bring facts, you bring weak talking points. Sorry that upsets you

 

[Vol Main]

I bring facts, you bring weak talking points. Sorry that upsets you

No Fan, that is not what's happening here. I bring documented facts and valid reason; you ignore those facts and assert false fabrications of the mind. Even after I posted the names of refineries contracting with TransCanada for KXL product...and their foreign ownership, you keep claiming that the refineries are all American owned. And you keep arguing that exporting more oil product will lower prices at American pumps, when that is just not true. The ONLY people saying that are oil company stooges.

 

[VolsNSkinsFan]

No Fan, that is not what's happening here. I bring documented facts and valid reason; you ignore those facts and assert false fabrications of the mind. Even after I posted the names of refineries contracting with TransCanada for KXL product...and their foreign ownership, you keep claiming that the refineries are all American owned. And you keep arguing that exporting more oil product will lower prices at American pumps, when that is just not true. The ONLY people saying that are oil company stooges.

The largest refineries in Texas and Louisiana where the oil would be refined are owned by Exxon, Valero, Chevron, BP, and Conoco-Phillips. All publicly traded on the NYSE and employ lots of US citizens. You said that TransCanada wants to sell the oil in Texas so they can get export it and get Brent Crude prices, which is laughable because A) its illegal to export oil. B) Canadian Tar Sands oil is crappy oil that sells at a big discount to Brent Crude because it costs more to refine vs Brent and WTI.

 

[Septic]

I bring facts, you bring weak talking points. Sorry that upsets you

Do some research on your own, this should help get you started.

 

[Septic]

The largest refineries in Texas and Louisiana where the oil would be refined are owned by Exxon, Valero, Chevron, BP, and Conoco-Phillips. All publicly traded on the NYSE and employ lots of US citizens. You said that TransCanada wants to sell the oil in Texas so they can get export it and get Brent Crude prices, which is laughable because A) its illegal to export oil. B) Canadian Tar Sands oil is crappy oil that sells at a big discount to Brent Crude because it costs more to refine vs Brent and WTI.

He actually said oil products, which is correct.

That those companies are publically traded is irrelevant to the argument.

I still can't figure out what your argument is.

Again, if you're suggesting the pipeline will result in cheaper gas, again, you're mistaken.

 

[VolsNSkinsFan]

Do some research on your own, this should help get you started.

Its a good thing I dont have to google it because I never said it would guarantee lower prices. It could lower prices, and should help lower prices, but never said it would guarantee lower prices.

Meanwhile you clowns have gone from, it will be an oil export terminal (wrong). The pipeline is worse for the environment (wrong). Only foreign countries will benefit (wrong)

 

[Septic]

Its a good thing I dont have to google it because I never said it would guarantee lower prices. It could lower prices, and should help lower prices, but never said it would guarantee lower prices.

Meanwhile you clowns have gone from, it will be an oil export terminal (wrong). The pipeline is worse for the environment (wrong). Only foreign countries will benefit (wrong)

Hmm, I don't recall saying any of those things. Not one.

Let me check.

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Nope, not one.

You're clearly certain of the outcome despite numerous predictions of the contrary. I'll back out of the conversation at this point and let you believe what you want to believe.

 

[VolsNSkinsFan]

He actually said oil products, which is correct.

That those companies are publically traded is irrelevant to the argument.

I still can't figure out what your argument is.

Again, if you're suggesting the pipeline will result in cheaper gas, again, you're mistaken.

man you guys are as dense as Canadian Tar Sands Crude.

Oil Products= Gasoline, refined here in the USA

To recap, I want the pipeline built because its 10x cheaper to ship oil to Texas/LA in a pipeline vs a rail car. Its also cleaner for the environment.

I want US companies in the USA to refine the oil into gasoline because US citizens own the refineries and employ US Citizens. Id like to see them produce more gasoline so they can reward their US Citizen Shareholders and increase employment of US citizens to work at the US refineries.

I want the US to have a dependable supply of oil from a friendly neighbor for the next 50 years. I dont want to have to rely on the Middle East to supply us with oil and gasoline. Id like to supply the Middle East, Europe, or Asia with US Made Gasoline.