Let's compare Jesus and Muhammed (and debate homosexuality) (and Tombstone).

I have never heard about this. That's very interesting and sad.

That said, I'm not about to come here and make jsutifications for the many screw-ups that have littered the church throught the past 2000 years. They are well documented and most intellegent and grounded in faith Christians regret they happened and wish they never had. That said, Christians through the ages have done their part to repair social ills as best as possible.

As I said earlier, just because managment and upper management of an organization is corrupt, that doesn't mean the lower level workers are as well. In many cases, esp with the church in the middle ages, the Vatacin had so much power that it was impossible for a layman to do anything to correct it. And those that tried usually met a terrible ending. Most, if not all church ills have come when it became too intertwined with governments and tried to regain to much power.

I like your analysis and your view of the bureaucracy versus the laypersons; I would not argue against most of what you said.

I think most of the ills have come when these institutions feel like they are losing some of the power they either had in actuality or perception: the reformation and the counter-reformation were terribly bloody; the return of Catholicism to the English throne after Henry VIII's death sparked decades of brutal violence throughout the UK; the entire back and forth of the French Revolution; etc., etc.

One reason why I think that Islam is not the all-violent religion that some assess it as. Islam has been losing power across the Middle East over the past sixty years (precisely when a lot of Muslims felt Islam would gain power due to the end of colonialism). As with other institutions, religious and political, many radical Muslims have reacted with violence.

I see that in the history of Christian and Western institutions and nothing I have seen convinces me that it would not happen again if Christians and Western governments strongly perceived a transfer of power from their institutions to foreign institutions.
 
At this point I should just walk away from the conversation.

I'm not saying the Church should have done to the Nazis what they did to Galileo. They could have done other internal brandishing up to and including excommunication. It's like a brick wall at this point, but the issue is they did something to Galileo, they did nothing to any member of the Nazi party. Even a formal pronouncment of "These individuals, given the actions perpetrated during WWII, are no longer able to receive sacrament or to be counted in any Catholic Church registry" would have been something.

The Pope did apologize - as did other faiths. Link: BBC News | Europe | Vatican apologises over holocaust

The Vatican's response to your suggested action of refusing the sacrament of communion to former members of the Nazi party is that their sins are not beyond the redemptive power of Christ. I don't argue in defense of or in opposition to such an argument, even if true, but merely state what I believe would be their most likely response.

P.S. Good to have you back RJD, though even perhaps on the opposite side of the aisle on this topic.
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No. Truly ridiculous is comparing the righteous anger of Christ in the temple to the craven acts of violence committed by Muhammad and many of his followers in the name of Islam.



We simply have no common foundation to debate this non-sense. You cannot discern between righteous wrath and wrath emanating from unbridled, immoral, egocentric lusts.

What, precisely, made his wrath "righteous" - other than presupposing that he could not commit an unrighteous act?
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Encouraged. Especially in France and England.

I once argued - adamantly - for Mike Leach's hiring on The Hill. Fortunately, I saw the idiocy of such a stance, corrected it and in so doing, am no longer defined by it. Perhaps I should be.
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I have personal life experiences that tell me many Baptists are human garbage and manipulative, violent, lying pieces of ****. No BS "1500's separation of church and state" manufactured history is going to change what I have personally seen and experienced. Some Baptists and Church of God folks in the mid-South are hate-filled beyond imagination.

I once visited a prison. I now believe that all minorities are criminals.

Et tu, IMFPO? Et tu?
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Its righteous if it is committed by followers of your god; it is not if it is committed by followers of Allah. Right...

I think you meant "those opposed to evolution". Those opposed to the Theory of Natural Selection should be embarrassed.
You do realize that the Southern Baptist Convention was formed in 1845 on the foundations that Baptist theology and scripture interpretation formed a defense for their institution of slavery, right?

I would argue that goes against your "who have Baptists persecuted" argument, as well as the spirit of your "1st amendment found its greatest support".

Baptists and Anabaptists actually date back to 1609.

Nope...just slavery...

Why should someone who fails to support the theory of natural selection be "embarrassed", exactly?

Should I feel shame for Schrödinger's cat?

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People in this thread going all over the place with this. If your going to compare anything in this thread in regards to Jesus, certainly stay out of denominations, because it's pretty obvious that everyone of them have their differences. Compare what's in the Bible to what's in the Koran.

Jesus was God in flesh.

Mohammad was a man with wars to rage against Christians.

Not much to compare really.
 
People in this thread going all over the place with this. If your going to compare anything in this thread in regards to Jesus, certainly stay out of denominations, because it's pretty obvious that everyone of them have their differences. Compare what's in the Bible to what's in the Koran.

Jesus was God in flesh.

Mohammad was a man with wars to rage against Christians.

Not much to compare really.

Provide your empirical proof that Jesus was human.

I'll wait.
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FWIW, a Baptist sermon is the only congregation I've ever walked out of.

Only one I have ever walked out of was a non-denominational one. Our pastor is top notch, and he's never given one of those, "Your going to hell speech if you do this, this, and this." Some people who slander Baptists, and I hear it a lot, obviously have went to a pretty crappy service.
 
Only one I have ever walked out of was a non-denominational one. Our pastor is top notch, and he's never given one of those, "Your going to hell speech if you do this, this, and this." Some people who slander Baptists, and I hear it a lot, obviously have went to a pretty crappy service.
Most the other folks with that particular Baptist church were fine folks, I played in the band and participated in youth group for about a year when I was 15 (played the bass).

The guy who came in was a traveling minister. I decided I'd heard enough when he had not deviated from the topic of how "******s and queers are ruining this country and will burn in hell" (his words, not mine) for about an hour.
 
What's the signifigance of this, unless to imply your intolerance?
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Talking about baptists earlier in the thread.

Point is I don't think you can usually call such a large group of people within this country a bad group... Smaller ones like the WBC sure, but not large congregations.
 
Most the other folks with that particular Baptist church were fine folks, I played in the band and participated in youth group for about a year when I was 15 (played the bass).

The guy who came in was a traveling minister. I decided I'd heard enough when he had not deviated from the topic of how "******s and queers are ruining this country and will burn in hell" (his words, not mine) for about an hour.

Good grief. Sounds like your church didn't exactly do their homework with this particular feller.
 
Good grief. Sounds like your church didn't exactly do their homework with this particular feller.

I guess not. I've also gone to a few predominantly African American protestant congregations when I get Sunday mornings off (sadly, a rarity for me these days). Something everybody must experience once in their lives.
 
I guess not. I've also gone to a few predominantly African American protestant congregations when I get Sunday mornings off (sadly, a rarity for me these days). Something everybody must experience once in their lives.

If you've been to a pentecostal church, you've seen it all. I went to a couple, and the old lady's scared the crap out of me. They should of had a standby ambulance in the parking lot.
 
Only one I have ever walked out of was a non-denominational one. Our pastor is top notch, and he's never given one of those, "Your going to hell speech if you do this, this, and this." Some people who slander Baptists, and I hear it a lot, obviously have went to a pretty crappy service.

You attend a church with a "top-notch" pastor who fails to teach you a core and unavoidable tenant of the Christian faith?

I'd call that a pretty crappy service.
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Most the other folks with that particular Baptist church were fine folks, I played in the band and participated in youth group for about a year when I was 15 (played the bass).

The guy who came in was a traveling minister. I decided I'd heard enough when he had not deviated from the topic of how "******s and queers are ruining this country and will burn in hell" (his words, not mine) for about an hour.

Supposing that they are, and will - shouldn't he be unwavering in its opposition?

Perhaps you'd prefer Eric's church. Apparently, they're not only "top notch" but avoid even the most basic of Biblical principles.
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Talking about baptists earlier in the thread.

Point is I don't think you can usually call such a large group of people within this country a bad group... Smaller ones like the WBC sure, but not large congregations.

So, what's the numerical cut-off that delineates when stereotypical beliefs are acceptable, or not?

And exactly who set that standard?
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Supposing that they are, and will - shouldn't he be unwavering in its opposition?

Perhaps you'd prefer Eric's church. Apparently, they're not only "top notch" but avoid even the most basic of Biblical principles.
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Have you ever read the New Testament??
 

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