Malaysia Boeing 777

#251
#251
Any of you guys ever considered that a ceasefire could be conveniently used to do all of the following:

1) Have an international on-site investigation of the crash.

2) Gather more intelligence

3) Allow Ukrainians time to mount a better coordinated offensive (if necessary).

Stupid ceasefires.
 
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#252
#252
PKT_VOL said:
In fairness, that region is considered a war zone. Armies, especially rebels, don't exactly warn the enemy before they fire (if they feel they are at war).
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FLVOL69 said:
All the more reason a commercial jetliner shouldn't have been in their airspace.
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PKT_VOL said:
Agreed. Really piss poor flight planning.
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Only after the Malaysian Air flight was shot down did the FAA send out a NOTAM (Notice to Airmen) prohibiting flights within that region.

FAA NOTAM restricts US flights over eastern Ukraine - 7/18/2014 - Flight Global

But honestly, if airlines were trying to dodge every brushfire, civil war and rebel activity around the world, none would be flying. And the rebels shooting down planes was a fairly new development. The same airlines had been flying over that part of the Ukraine since day one of their troubles and none had issues until now.
 
#253
#253
Reportedly the BUK in question is already in Russia. Won't ever see it or the black boxes again.
 
#254
#254
volprof said:
Any of you guys ever considered that a ceasefire could be conveniently used to do all of the following:

1) Have an international on-site investigation of the crash.

The rebels already have the site, taken the black-boxes to Moscow, and now there are reports on Twitter that the terrorists have fired on and OSCE team sent to the site.

2) Gather more intelligence

On?

3) Allow Ukrainians time to mount a better coordinated offensive (if necessary).

The last few weeks the Ukrainians have had their most success against the insurgents than at any other point in the conflict. Now is the time to press the advantage when you have the world's support.

Stupid ceasefires.
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.
 
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#256
#256
Burhead said:
.
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I get your point, but what exactly are you asking for? Should Ukrainians go ahead and push into Donetsk immediately? Should they attack the crash site to gain control of it? Should we go ahead and sanction Russia further (actually I don't necessarily disagree with that at the moment, although it takes some internationally coordinating)?

The crash site may be a lost cause, but I just don't see how waiting a couple days or so to form a clear plan and garner full European support is going to hurt anyone. It's still going to have the world's attention.

We'll see how we proceed though, and I may change my mind then.
 
#258
#258
volprof said:
Any of you guys ever considered that a ceasefire could be conveniently used to do all of the following:

1) Have an international on-site investigation of the crash.
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The thing about it is, if the rebels don't allow either Ukrainian or international investigators on site, they destroy any PR they may have. It makes them out to be complete and utter bastards if they choose this path. Supposedly from the Tweets that Burhead was posting yesterday, they weren't allowing police on scene at the time either and I guarantee they will take a beating for it.

If they want any legitimacy, they would stand aside while an international team investigates. Or even a Ukrainian national team. If they denied access or even started taking warning shots at either group, there is no way to defend it.
 
#260
#260
volprof said:
The crash site may be a lost cause, but I just don't see how waiting a couple days or so to form a clear plan and garner full European support is going to hurt anyone. It's still going to have the world's attention.
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Having done accident investigations (albeit motor vehicles, but same principle applies) the less contaminated the scene, the better evidence you have. And you cannot control a scene of that size as people want to come in, move things around, take pieces as souvenirs and generally screw up everything along the way.

Two days is an eternity in accident investigations.
 
#264
#264
Grand Vol said:
Having done accident investigations (albeit motor vehicles, but same principle applies) the less contaminated the scene, the better evidence you have. And you cannot control a scene of that size as people want to come in, move things around, take pieces as souvenirs and generally screw up everything along the way.

Two days is an eternity in accident investigations.
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I'm not saying they should take two days to get to the crash site. They should go ahead and do that now. I just don't see what the issue with the ceasefire is at the moment. If the Ukrainians approach and the bastards shoot at them, then shoot back. Who gives a **** what Obama says at that point. And the ceasefire call is mostly just political posturing while a clear plan (I hope) is gathered between America and the Europeans.
 
#265
#265
volprof said:
I get your point, but what exactly are you asking for? Should Ukrainians go ahead and push into Donetsk immediately? Should they attack the crash site to gain control of it? Should we go ahead and sanction Russia further (actually I don't necessarily disagree with that at the moment, although it takes some internationally coordinating)?

The crash site may be a lost cause, but I just don't see how waiting a couple days or so to form a clear plan and garner full European support is going to hurt anyone. It's still going to have the world's attention.

We'll see how we proceed though, and I may change my mind then.
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All I'm saying is that we've seen how the Russian side respects a "cease-fire". I'm no military man but I would imagine pressing the attack when you've recently gotten the up-hand would be critical. I believe that as long as fighting is on-going we shouldn't try and unilaterally force a cease-fire on the Ukraine.
 
#266
#266
Burhead said:
All I'm saying is that we've seen how the Russian side respects a "cease-fire". I'm no military man but I would imagine pressing the attack when you've recently gotten the up-hand would be critical. I believe that as long as fighting is on-going we shouldn't try and unilaterally force a cease-fire on the Ukraine.
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Fair enough. And I agree: they've proven they have no desire for a ceasefire or of negotiating. They're Putin's lackeys who are there for one purpose, and one purpose only: keep Ukraine destabilized. I think the ceasefire thing is just posturing until something clear can be done other than just go bomb some stuff.
 
#267
#267
volprof said:
I'm not saying they should take two days to get to the crash site. They should go ahead and do that now. I just don't see what the issue with the ceasefire is at the moment. If the Ukrainians approach and the bastards shoot at them, then shoot back. Who gives a **** what Obama says at that point. And the ceasefire call is mostly just political posturing while a clear plan (I hope) is gathered between America and the Europeans.
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At this point though, without the Russians calling off their dogs, it won't matter if the Europeans and US call for a ceasefire. Like it or not, they Russians have to be the one that makes the move here.
 
#268
#268
volprof said:
I'm not saying they should take two days to get to the crash site. They should go ahead and do that now. I just don't see what the issue with the ceasefire is at the moment. If the Ukrainians approach and the bastards shoot at them, then shoot back. Who gives a **** what Obama says at that point. And the ceasefire call is mostly just political posturing while a clear plan (I hope) is gathered between America and the Europeans.
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This is really the issue at hand. Nobody! His words mean absolutely nothing.

People poke fun at what he says because it seems so insincere. And again, at the end of the day his words mean nothing to allies or foes. Putin already knows Obama is his *****. He's already tested it.

Obama may as well say just stay on vacation.
 
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#269
#269
DC_Vol said:
would technically be 67%.
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I'm not good at math, so let's break this down:

Vlad: Fascist, Russian
Obama: Commie, American

The claim was that both are Russian commies.

Isn't that 50% overall, or is my math just that bad? I'll readily admit it if so.
 
#270
#270
@PierreCrom · 2h

Full access to #MH17 site denied by rebels to #OSCE observers

@PierreCrom · 2h

Rebels keep #OSCE observers 500 m away from main #MH17 crash site #ukrainecrash #Ukraine #donbass #donetsk

@PierreCrom · 1h

Rebel's commender fires a warning shot when 2 #OSCE members leaved the road to inspect #MH17 part in a field. Mission left back to #donetsk

Stay classy Russia.
 
#271
#271
DC_Vol said:
Obama may as well say just stay on vacation fundraiser trips.
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fify

I understand events were unfolding when he went to NYC last night, but I think I can speak for a majority of Americans when I say his place was back at the White House monitoring the situation instead of $30,000 a plate dinners.

And I say that as a non-partisan statement because even if the person had an (R) behind their name the situation needed their undivided attention.
 
#272
#272
Isn't that quite a paradox though? A fascist in Moscow and a commie in Washington. Maybe the Bible is right afterall.
 
#274
#274
Burhead said:
@PierreCrom · 2h

Full access to #MH17 site denied by rebels to #OSCE observers

@PierreCrom · 2h

Rebels keep #OSCE observers 500 m away from main #MH17 crash site #ukrainecrash #Ukraine #donbass #donetsk

@PierreCrom · 1h

Rebel's commender fires a warning shot when 2 #OSCE members leaved the road to inspect #MH17 part in a field. Mission left back to #donetsk

Stay classy Russia.
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Looks like the lash whippers are whipping that lash. Only been doing it for a thousand years now. What's a thousand more?
 
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