Mass Shooting in Atlanta

#2,151
#2,151
C-south said:
What’s an example of “critical mass”.
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The 2a crowd.
Integrationists in the 60's.
Gay rights advocates in the 2000's.
Women suffragists as they won the vote.

The way I use the term, it just means the mass necessary to bring about change (or resists change).
It doesn't always have to be the majority.
 
#2,153
#2,153
volinbham said:
then eating healthy would likewise qualify if you want to define morality down to lifestyle preferences

I also note in Luther's dressing example there was no suggestion the woman's personal choice was driven by the culture to which she belonged - it implied these were individual dressing preferences
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Of course it is driven by the culture to which she belonged. That was the whole point. Morals (what is defined as moral) are impacted by the culture.
 
#2,154
#2,154
luthervol said:
The 2a crowd.
Integrationists in the 60's.
Gay rights advocates in the 2000's.
Women suffragists as they won the vote.

The way I use the term, it just means the mass necessary to bring about change (or resists change).
It doesn't always have to be the majority.
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The past is irrelevant. We’ll go with the 2a thing though. We have more guns than people and it’s also a fundamental right. What are gay rights? What “rights” are they excluded from exercising? The “critical mass” doesn’t exercise their right to protest but legitimate protest has made legitimate change.
 
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#2,156
#2,156
volinbham said:
then eating healthy would likewise qualify if you want to define morality down to lifestyle preferences

I also note in Luther's dressing example there was no suggestion the woman's personal choice was driven by the culture to which she belonged - it implied these were individual dressing preferences
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No he didn’t. He said her choice of clothing was driven by morals. You brought up her preferences. That’s why I assumed you were saying there’s no such thing as a clothing choice driven by morals and I’m saying there absolutely is. Less now than there used to be, but still a lot of it.
 
#2,158
#2,158
luthervol said:
Of course it is driven by the culture to which she belonged. That was the whole point. Morals (what is defined as moral) are impacted by the culture.
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so she chose to dress that way because it was the cultural norm or was it her personal moral choice to do so regardless of the cultural norm?

eating healthy is impacted by culture no? so my example of the vegetarian for health is as much a moral choice as the objection to eating animals.
 
#2,159
#2,159
RockyTop85 said:
No he didn’t. He said her choice of clothing was driven by morals. You brought up her preferences. That’s why I assumed you were saying there’s no such thing as a clothing choice driven by morals and I’m saying there absolutely is. Less now than there used to be, but still a lot of it.
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Luther's statement in full

Take a woman who has a moral stance that she is going to dress in a fashionable but not provocative fashion.

I was not saying what you assumed. It doesn't say or suggest her "moral stance" was due norms of the broader culture in which she lives. In fact, since the rest of his example shows how she changes the manner of dress in line with cultural change suggests her "moral stance" is individual rather than her doing it because the culture in which she exists recommends it.

My point was the example confuses morals for personal preferences. Simply labeling said preferences as being a moral stance doesn't make them so.

It's like saying my moral stance is to drive sport luxury cars that are not too sporty but also not too low in performance. Is this what qualifies as morals?
 
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#2,161
#2,161
volinbham said:
Luther's statement in full

Take a woman who has a moral stance that she is going to dress in a fashionable but not provocative fashion.

I was not saying what you assumed. It doesn't say or suggest her "moral stance" was due norms of the broader culture in which she lives. In fact, since the rest of his example shows how she changes the manner of dress in line with cultural change suggests her "moral stance" is individual rather than her doing it because the culture in which she exists recommends it.

My point was the example confuses morals for personal preferences. Simply labeling said preferences as being a moral stance doesn't make them so.

It's like saying my moral stance is to drive sport luxury cars that are not too sporty but also not too low in performance. Is this what qualifies as morals?
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The conversation was about his theory that cultural norms influence morality.

Why don’t you just state your point in a sentence and we’ll go from there, because this looks exactly like what I thought you were saying.
 
#2,164
#2,164
RockyTop85 said:
The conversation was about his theory that cultural norms influence morality.

Why don’t you just state your point in a sentence and we’ll go from there, because this looks exactly like what I thought you were saying.
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how many times do I have to state it? It is about the definition of what is a moral stance vs what is a personal preference. That's it. I disagree that choice expressed in his specific example is an example of a "moral stance".
 
#2,165
#2,165
volinbham said:
how many times do I have to state it? It is about the definition of what is a moral stance vs what is a personal preference. That's it. I disagree that choice expressed in his specific example is an example of a "moral stance".
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Uh huh...

So how does disputing whether Luther implied that her morals were informed by a certain culture make that point better?
 
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#2,166
#2,166
RockyTop85 said:
Uh huh...

So how does disputing whether her morals were informed by a certain culture make that point better?
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because you brought it up - I was responding to your comment

my original comment that you chose to respond to had nothing to do with the reason for her "moral stance" - you jumped in and for some reason thought I was saying culture can't inform morals (which I never said or implied) and once I replied to you now you think it was part of my original comment.

I'll try one more time with you:

3 similar statements

Luther: Take a woman who has a moral stance that she is going to dress in a fashionable but not provocative fashion.

Me: Person 2 does it (eat vegetarian) because they have a moral stance to lower their chance of heart disease.

Me: My moral stance is to drive sport luxury cars that are not too sporty but also not too low in performance.

I contend none are statements of morals. You and Luther clearly think #1 is but #2 is not since you've both said so. Neither of you have weighed in on #3. I contend they are equivalent and not examples of morals. Whether you agree or not is immaterial. It is the point I've been making period.
 
#2,167
#2,167
volinbham said:
because you brought it up - I was responding to your comment

my original comment that you chose to respond to had nothing to do with the reason for her "moral stance" - you jumped in and for some reason thought I was saying culture can't inform morals (which I never said or implied) and once I replied to you now you think it was part of my original comment.

I'll try one more time with you:

3 similar statements

Luther: Take a woman who has a moral stance that she is going to dress in a fashionable but not provocative fashion.

Me: Person 2 does it (eat vegetarian) because they have a moral stance to lower their chance of heart disease.

Me: My moral stance is to drive sport luxury cars that are not too sporty but also not too low in performance.

I contend none are statements of morals. You and Luther clearly think #1 is but #2 is not since you've both said so. Neither of you have weighed in on #3. I contend they are equivalent and not examples of morals. Whether you agree or not is immaterial. It is the point I've been making period.
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Starting to think Northdallas40 is contagious. That’s not what I thought you said.
I told you what I thought you said.
It wasn’t that.
Why would you say I thought you said something that I didn’t think you said, even after I already told you exactly what I thought you said?

I thought you said that style of dress isn’t an issue of morality it’s personal preference.

I responded that there are several cultures for which it absolutely is a moral stance. Dressing provocatively is absolutely immoral in a number of cultures. It was less socially acceptable in all of the time periods and locations that Luther mentioned in the part of his post that you cut off in your recitation of his “full statement.” There are still perfectly mainstream cultures today that see it as immoral to dress a certain way.

You responded with something about how Luther didn’t say anything about her being influenced by culture. This is incorrect, but also doesn’t address the problem presented:

If culture influences morality.
And there are multiple cultures that say clothing choice is an issue of morality.
Then how is it that clothing choice isn’t an issue of morality?

Hope that helps.
 
#2,168
#2,168
RockyTop85 said:
Starting to think Northdallas40 is contagious. That’s not what I thought you said.
I told you what I thought you said.
It wasn’t that.
Why would you say I thought you said something that I didn’t think you said even after I already told you exactly what I thought you said?

I thought you said that style of dress isn’t an issue of morality it’s personal preference. That’s objectively incorrect.

I responded that there are several cultures for which it absolutely is a moral stance. Dressing provocatively is absolutely immoral in a number of cultures. It was less socially acceptable in all of the time periods and locations that Luther mentioned in the part of his post that you cut off in your recitation of his “full statement.” There are still perfectly mainstream cultures today that see it as immoral to dress a certain way.

You responded with something about how Luther didn’t say anything about her being influenced by culture. This is also objectively incorrect, but also doesn’t address the problem presented:

If culture influences morality.
And there are multiple cultures that say clothing choice is an issue of morality.
Then how is it that clothing choice isn’t an issue of morality?

Hope that helps.
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This conversation has to be in the running for Volnation's stupidest most confusing of all time.
 
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#2,171
#2,171
If mental gymnastics ever get added to the Olympics, I think the U.S. need look no further than VN for their team.

Bring home the gold, Mary luther Retton!
 
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