Maybe the problem isn't with Jay Graham, Tee Martin, Vonn Bell...

[BaldBiker]

Why? The fact is they shouldn't. You may feel great about that tingle running up your leg but it does NOT assure success. Sumlin was a mid-major coach with a resume not as impressive as Jones'. Freeze- same. Malzahn comes from a mid-major after being passed over numerous times by big programs.

Neither Saban nor Miles had outstanding resumes when hired by LSU. Richt was an OC at FSU and never a HC. Muschamp was a DC and never a HC.

Spurrier took more than 5 years to turn around USCe and that program was better off than UT when Dooley took over...

How many times has Dennis Erickson been declared the "savior" of a program?

Sherman was a sure bet to turn TAM around, right? Weis?

Kiffin brought the kind of "flash" you seem to think is necessary... he turned his back on UT and is currently on a hot seat at USC. He has UNDERPERFORMED at USC by a wide margin.

The fact is the hire you want made isn't out there unless you throw $10 million a year at Saban. Almost every program that turns it around does so by finding a lower level HC or coordinator who is a "great" coach waiting to prove it.

No. Only a few are doing that... and they are no more delusional than folks like you who think it is reasonable to "melt down in dismay" over the hire of a coach like Jones.

Most of us say, "He's the coach. He gets our support. He has to succeed or someone else gets their shot." Eventually the right coach walks into the situation at the right time. This was always the danger when it became necessary to get rid of Fulmer. It may take awhile before you find the right guy again.



I see. So it is OK to condemn a coach BEFORE he's had a chance to prove what he can/can't do... but not to criticize "star" players for what they've actually done, right?

Ok. This post was filled with way too many actual facts. We can't be having that around here. :bad:

 

[sjt18]

That was kind of my point sjt. I think we should also keep in mind that conversation was initially about the effects of firing coaches immediately into their tenure. Supposedly, there were many big named coaches waiting to come in to UT, but the AD didn't want them.

The examples to back this up were two small market coaches with records worse than the guy we have.

Just thought some context would add to the discussion.

I have tried to get VKA to say what he does for a living in the past but he doesn't want to. I manage people in a tough business. I have hired hourly and salary people.

If a guy you are willing to give $50K+ turns down the job and you believe your next best option is a guy who's market value is $40K... you offer him $40K. That does not mean you didn't make a serious offer to the other guy.

Somehow VKA assumes that if Jones makes "only" $3 million that means that UT was not willing to pay anyone else more. That is simply not the way it works. Coaches like other professionals have a market value determined in part by talent and in part by perception.

If reports are even remotely accurate, UT was willing to give Gruden a big salary and lots of money for his staff. He kept pushing until he got them to say "no"... which was effectively saying "no" himself. And... Gruden was far from a sure thing at UT. He would have gotten players this year on name value. But he still would have had to win to sustain it. The lesson of guys like Sherman (who was a better NFL coach than Gruden), Wannstadt, Weis, et al is that getting an NFL coach does not assure a turnaround in a college program.

 

[Orange_Crush]

I have tried to get VKA to say what he does for a living in the past but he doesn't want to. I manage people in a tough business. I have hired hourly and salary people.

If a guy you are willing to give $50K+ turns down the job and you believe your next best option is a guy who's market value is $40K... you offer him $40K. That does not mean you didn't make a serious offer to the other guy.

Somehow VKA assumes that if Jones makes "only" $3 million that means that UT was not willing to pay anyone else more. That is simply not the way it works. Coaches like other professionals have a market value determined in part by talent and in part by perception.

If reports are even remotely accurate, UT was willing to give Gruden a big salary and lots of money for his staff. He kept pushing until he got them to say "no"... which was effectively saying "no" himself. And... Gruden was far from a sure thing at UT. He would have gotten players this year on name value. But he still would have had to win to sustain it. The lesson of guys like Sherman (who was a better NFL coach than Gruden), Wannstadt, Weis, et al is that getting an NFL coach does not assure a turnaround in a college program.

I edited this to remove my speculation about professions. Nothing was left.

 

[oregonvol]

I have tried to get VKA to say what he does for a living in the past but he doesn't want to. I manage people in a tough business. I have hired hourly and salary people.

If a guy you are willing to give $50K+ turns down the job and you believe your next best option is a guy who's market value is $40K... you offer him $40K. That does not mean you didn't make a serious offer to the other guy.

Somehow VKA assumes that if Jones makes "only" $3 million that means that UT was not willing to pay anyone else more. That is simply not the way it works. Coaches like other professionals have a market value determined in part by talent and in part by perception.

If reports are even remotely accurate, UT was willing to give Gruden a big salary and lots of money for his staff. He kept pushing until he got them to say "no"... which was effectively saying "no" himself. And... Gruden was far from a sure thing at UT. He would have gotten players this year on name value. But he still would have had to win to sustain it. The lesson of guys like Sherman (who was a better NFL coach than Gruden), Wannstadt, Weis, et al is that getting an NFL coach does not assure a turnaround in a college program.

Maybe it's because there were no media reports of us actually making any offers to any top guys or offering big salaries? Arkansas was making big public offers and they ended up with an A-list coach. The only definite media reports were those of us making a push for Charlie Strong, which was another 3 million dollar guy. And given the awkward way that was handled and how public it was with him turning us down, it would be a real stretch of logic to assume we actually made a real push for big name guys and yet there is no evidence to suggest it.

Also, Mike Sherman was a better NFL coach than Jon Gruden? Really? lol: Oh, volnation, don't ever change...

 

[Orange_Crush]

Maybe it's because there were no media reports of us actually making any offers to any top guys or offering big salaries? Arkansas was making big public offers and they ended up with an A-list coach. The only definite media reports were those of us making a push for Charlie Strong, which was another 3 million dollar guy. And given the awkward way that was handled and how public it was with him turning us down, it would be a real stretch of logic to assume we actually made a real push for big name guys and yet there is no evidence to suggest it.

Also, Mike Sherman was a better NFL coach than Jon Gruden? Really? lol: Oh, volnation, don't ever change...

So, which do you want? A public coaching search, or a private one? Which actually happened, a public or private? You just defeated your own point, OV. The only definitive reports were CCS. Everything else is unknown to you and the VAST majority on here proposing what actually happened.

Until the Strong story broke, the coaching search was a very, very close-to-the-vest search. There were really no credible media reports coming out. You can't really prove a position based on a lack of reports. Again, and it's incredible that one has to keep going back to these rational arguments, but... Lack of evidence is not evidence of lack. You are creating an argument from silence, which is not an argument at all (at least, not a rational, logically supported argument).

I see a lot of emotion-based blathering around here, but few people objectively looking at things and commenting in a rational manner.

You don't know what happened or didn't, yet you are making a definitive statement about what actually happened. Utterly pitiful.

 

[oregonvol]

So, which do you want? A public coaching search, or a private one? Which actually happened, a public or private? You just defeated your own point, OV. The only definitive reports were CCS. Everything else is unknown to you and the VAST majority on here proposing what actually happened.

Until the Strong story broke, the coaching search was a very, very close-to-the-vest search. There were really no credible media reports coming out. You can't really prove a position based on a lack of reports. Again, and it's incredible that one has to keep going back to these rational arguments, but... Lack of evidence is not evidence of lack. You are creating an argument from silence, which is not an argument at all (at least, not a rational, logically supported argument).

I see a lot of emotion-based blathering around here, but few people objectively looking at things and commenting in a rational manner.

You don't know what happened or didn't, yet you are making a definitive statement about what actually happened. Utterly pitiful.

I see you making excuses, like you did with Dooley.

I see you assuming things happened where there is no evidence.

I see evidence that we were publicly turned down by Charlie Strong. There is no evidence we made a serious offer to any big name candidate. It's not "emotion-based" (you should really look up the definition of "emotion" by the way. it doesn't mean what you think it means) to draw a conclusion that big name candidates were not given serious offers. It's a rational conclusion based on the credible info out there.

The only basis to conclude that Hart was out there making serious offers to top level coaching candidates and was playing it so close to the vest that none of that ever came out, only the offer to Charlie Strong and his subsequent rejection of it, which broke quickly and was covered extensively by the media, is hope, make-believe, and delusion.

 

[NashVol11]

Oh, one guy who, at the time, was roughly equivalent to the one that you want out now, who would be following a coach that left of his own accord...

I thought we were talking about all the big named guys you're inferring would come here after we've fired a coach or two a year into their tenure. Isn't that what we're discussing?

My bad.

:hi:

If you think Sumlin was at any point "roughly equivalent to" Dooley or Jones, you're beyond help. If you can't see the difference, just say that and we'll look back on this conversation in two years. Don't say they ARE equivalent coaches just because you don't know any better.

Dooley should never have been hired in the first place. But, all the coaches I've mentioned would come to Tennessee whether the previous coach had been here for a decade or a week.

 

[NashVol11]

A guy with two year's HFB coaching experience at N Illinois is who you would rather have than CBJ? And that's "most" of the available coaches with interest in coaching at UT? One is "most" of the coaches with interest in UT? One?

You're not really making your case for the idea that so many coaches are standing in line to coach at a UT program that would fire their coaches a year into their tenure, with a small buy-out.

Butch Davis
Kevin Sumlin
Willie Taggart
Dave Doeren
Greg Roman

All of those people would have come here in a second had we offered them. We landed in the MacIntyre/Tuberville/Mullen/Rhoads tier, and I'm not even certain I'd take Jones over any of those guys.

 

[Orange_Crush]

I see you making excuses, like you did with Dooley.

You see me promoting rational, logical reasoning.

I see you assuming things happened where there is no evidence.

No. You don't. You see me refusing to make a definitive statement one way or another. There is a difference. It's concerning that you can't recognize that.

I see evidence that we were publicly turned down by Charlie Strong.

Great that gives you insight into the CCS persuit. It gives you exactly that much insight.

There is no evidence we made a serious offer to any big name candidate.

That doesn't really tell you much does it? Do you know everything there is to know on the subject? No. So, you are making assumptions and stating them as fact. The uncomfortable truth for your position is that many things are true without you knowing it. Many things have happened in history for which we have no evidence. They still happened.

Your knowledge does not inform reality. Just because reality has not informed your knowledge, reality is still reality, one way or another.

You are making a fallacious argument, and it will remain unsupported until you find actual evidence that supports your assumption.

It's not "emotion-based" (you should really look up the definition of "emotion" by the way it doesn't mean what you think it means)

I was giving you the benefit of the doubt that you had some basis for your argument.

to draw a conclusion that big name candidates were not given serious offers. It's a rational conclusion based on the credible info out there.

I don't think that word means what you think it means, unless you mean that it's based on faulty reasoning.

proceeding or derived from reason or based on reasoning: a rational explanation.

I've shown the logical fallacy that you're promoting, which means that it is precisely NOT a rational conclusion. A rational conclusion would understand that in this situation one can't form a definitive opinion on a lack of evidence. It would also know that this isn't a circumstance where one can prove a negative.

The only basis to conclude that Hart was out there making serious offers to top level coaching candidates and was playing it so close to the vest that none of that ever came out, only the offer to Charlie Strong and his subsequent rejection of it, which broke quickly and was covered extensively by the media, is hope, make-believe, and delusion.

See? More logical fallacies.

Argument from incredulity/Lack of imagination

Arguments from incredulity take the form:

1. P is too incredible (or: I cannot imagine how P could possibly be true); therefore P must be false.
2. I cannot imagine how P could possibly be false; therefore P must be true.

These arguments are similar to arguments from ignorance in that they too ignore and do not properly eliminate the possibility that something can be both incredible and still be true, or appear to be obvious and yet still be false.

Argument from self-knowing (auto-epistemic)

Arguments from self-knowing take the form:

1. If P were true then I would know it; in fact I do not know it; therefore P cannot be true.
2. If P were false then I would know it; in fact I do not know it; therefore P cannot be false.

Quick question, did you believe this to be a "rational conclusion" also?

 

[NashVol11]

Why? The fact is they shouldn't. You may feel great about that tingle running up your leg but it does NOT assure success. Sumlin was a mid-major coach with a resume not as impressive as Jones'. Freeze- same. Malzahn comes from a mid-major after being passed over numerous times by big programs.

Neither Saban nor Miles had outstanding resumes when hired by LSU. Richt was an OC at FSU and never a HC. Muschamp was a DC and never a HC.

Spurrier took more than 5 years to turn around USCe and that program was better off than UT when Dooley took over...

If you think Jones is just as likely to succeed as Steve Spurrier or Sumlin and that those schools just got lucky, you're telling me that you have no idea what to look for in a coach. Which isn't surprising, because I'm pretty sure you were comparing Derek effing Dooley to Spurrier as well.

How many times has Dennis Erickson been declared the "savior" of a program?

Sherman was a sure bet to turn TAM around, right? Weis?

Kiffin brought the kind of "flash" you seem to think is necessary... he turned his back on UT and is currently on a hot seat at USC. He has UNDERPERFORMED at USC by a wide margin.

The fact is the hire you want made isn't out there unless you throw $10 million a year at Saban. Almost every program that turns it around does so by finding a lower level HC or coordinator who is a "great" coach waiting to prove it.

Mike Sherman is a terrible coach. Again, you have no idea what to look for so you're just guessing that maybe it's NFL guys that I like, or "flash," whatever that means, or that I wouldn't be satisfied with any less than Saban. You're wrong on all three counts.

No. Only a few are doing that... and they are no more delusional than folks like you who think it is reasonable to "melt down in dismay" over the hire of a coach like Jones.

Most of us say, "He's the coach. He gets our support. He has to succeed or someone else gets their shot." Eventually the right coach walks into the situation at the right time. This was always the danger when it became necessary to get rid of Fulmer. It may take awhile before you find the right guy again.

It will take a while if we have Cheek overseeing our coaching searches and trying to turn us into Berkeley.

I see. So it is OK to condemn a coach BEFORE he's had a chance to prove what he can/can't do... but not to criticize "star" players for what they've actually done, right?

Said coaches have had years of coaching experience to show what they could do. Was I wrong in saying that Dooley would be a horrible horrible coach?

The players are just kids. Some of them can't be helped, but a large portion of their behavior is a reflection of the guy coaching them. Which, for the last 3 years, has been an incompetent buffoon.

 

[NashVol11]

That's a ridiculous statement... even for you. You are exaggerating to the point of lying about what the "fanbase" is or has done. Accepting what is and waiting to see what happens is hardly "drooling" over the guy... unless being a fan in and of itself is "drooling".

Pay attention. It's slowed down now because we lost Graham too, but there were a lot of people saying "We didn't want Tee Martin anyway. Maybe the Cincinnati staff IS the best staff in America because it's the one he knows." Give me a break.

Kevin Sumlin was not available at the right time. The end. He also inherited a decent roster and a Heisman trophy winner at TAM. And as others mentioned... Sumlin's resume was no better than Jones' when he left Houston. In four years, he never won the CUSA. Jones won or shared 2 titles each in the Big East and MAC. Sumlin's best bowl win was the "TicketCity Bowl" vs Penn State right after the scandal broke. Jones' best bowl win was probably Vandy. His overall win % was 67% (Jones 65%). Jones had one losing season in 6 years. Sumlin one in 4 years.

These are coaches with virtually identical resumes coming into the SEC except for Jones' championships yet the one UT didn't get is to you a vastly superior coach... for no real reason other than he's the one UT didn't get.

Sumlin was at Houston. He was available whenever we wanted him.

But, yeah, you have a good point. I forgot about that time when Jones went 13-1. That must have been when he beat West Virginia.

 

[NashVol11]

And... Gruden was far from a sure thing at UT. He would have gotten players this year on name value. But he still would have had to win to sustain it. The lesson of guys like Sherman (who was a better NFL coach than Gruden), Wannstadt, Weis, et al is that getting an NFL coach does not assure a turnaround in a college program.

Dear God. Where is Mike Sherman's Super Bowl ring?

Just when I think you've run out of dumb things to say, you top them all.

 

[Orange_Crush]

If you think Sumlin was at any point "roughly equivalent to" Dooley or Jones, you're beyond help.

Kevin Sumlin

CUSA - Three year record
2008 Houston 8–5 6–2 3rd (West) W Armed Forces

2009 Houston 10–4 6–2 1st (West) L Armed Forces

2010 Houston 5–7 4–4 3rd (West)



CDD

WAC - three year record
2007 Louisiana Tech 5–7 4–4 T–4th


2008 Louisiana Tech 8–5 5–3 T–2nd W Independence

2009 Louisiana Tech 4–8 3–5 T–5th

Butch Jones

Central Michigan Chippewas (Mid-American Conference) (2007–2009) 2007 Central Michigan 8–6 6–1 1st (West) L Motor City

2008 Central Michigan 8–5 6–2 T–2nd (West) L Motor City

2009 Central Michigan 11–2 8–0 1st (West) GMAC* 24 23 Central Michigan: 27–13 20–3 * Did not coach bowl game Cincinnati Bearcats (Big East Conference) (2010–2012) 2010 Cincinnati 4–8 2–5 7th


2011 Cincinnati 10–3 5–2 T–1st W Liberty 21 25 2012 Cincinnati 9–3 5–2 T–1st Belk* 22
Cincinnati: 23–14 12–9 * Did not coach bowl game
You are correct. Only CDD and CKS are "roughly equivalent". CBJ has more experience. Since my original argument was comparing CKS to our current coach, I threw CDD in there out of pity for your argument.

If you can't see the difference, just say that and we'll look back on this conversation in two years.

Awesome! Another argument based on precognition. Even given that you can read minds, exactly what would future results have to do with the conversation we were having about coaches' records at the time of the UT hire. Hmmm...

Don't say they ARE equivalent coaches just because you don't know any better.

I'd love it if you would be honest to what I actually said. I'll help.

"Oh, one guy who, at the time, was roughly equivalent to the one that you want out now, who would be following a coach that left of his own accord... "

Thanks. :hi:

Dooley should never have been hired in the first place. But, all the coaches I've mentioned would come to Tennessee whether the previous coach had been here for a decade or a week.

Opinion, precognition and mind reading. You're an impressive dude.

 

[NashVol11]

Oh, one guy who, at the time, was roughly equivalent to the one that you want out now,

Argument from self-knowing (auto-epistemic)

Arguments from self-knowing take the form:
If P were true then I would know it; in fact I do not know it; therefore P cannot be true.
If P were false then I would know it; in fact I do not know it; therefore P cannot be false.

"If Sumlin were better than Jones then I would know it; in fact I do not know it; therefore they are roughly equivalent."

 

[NashVol11]

Kevin Sumlin

CUSA - Three year record
2010 Houston 5–7 4–4 3rd (West)

Awesome! Another argument based on precognition. Even given that you can read minds, exactly what would future results have to do with the conversation we were having about coaches' records at the time of the UT hire. Hmmm...

I'd love it if you would be honest to what I actually said. I'll help.

"Oh, one guy who, at the time, was roughly equivalent to the one that you want out now, who would be following a coach that left of his own accord... "

Thanks. :hi:

You seem to be having some trouble. What year did Tennessee hire a coach? What year did Dooley lose to Kentucky?

 

[oregonvol]

You see me promoting rational, logical reasoning.



No. You don't. You see me refusing to make a definitive statement one way or another. There is a difference. It's concerning that you can't recognize that.



Great that gives you insight into the CCS persuit. It gives you exactly that much insight.



That doesn't really tell you much does it? Do you know everything there is to know on the subject? No. So, you are making assumptions and stating them as fact. The uncomfortable truth for your position is that many things are true without you knowing it. Many things have happened in history for which we have no evidence. They still happened.

Your knowledge does not inform reality. Just because reality has not informed your knowledge, reality is still reality, one way or another.

You are making a fallacious argument, and it will remain unsupported until you find actual evidence that supports your assumption.



I was giving you the benefit of the doubt that you had some basis for your argument.



I don't think that word means what you think it means, unless you mean that it's based on faulty reasoning.

I've shown the logical fallacy that you're promoting, which means that it is precisely NOT a rational conclusion. A rational conclusion would understand that in this situation one can't form a definitive opinion on a lack of evidence. It would also know that this isn't a circumstance where one can prove a negative.



See? More logical fallacies.

Quick question, did you believe this to be a "rational conclusion" also?

What are you even talking about? You asserted that the coaching search was very close to the vest. You disputed VKAman's concerns about who we offered the job to. You have no basis to argue either point. There is no evidence that a close to the vest search was conducted. There is plenty of credible evidence that Hart offered one mid major coach, was turned down publicly, and then offered another mid major coach. That's not emotion. That's fact. Sorry.

 

[KBVol]

Remind me which of your posts I quoted again. Oh, right, it was the one after that.

Just when I thought you had finally learned how to read, you follow it up with yet another "I'm rooting for him" post. Maybe after 5 more of those, you'll finally realize that how hard you're cheering for him is totally irrelevant to this discussion.

Which means YOU can't read chief, since I posted it before and clearly answered your question before your last ridiculous post. Whatever buddy. By the way, nice juvenile straw man argument on your part to begin with.... "Would you bet blah blah blah ....."

 

[Orange_Crush]

Butch Davis

How do you know? Did he call you? Or are you making argument via assumption?

Kevin Sumlin

Houston Cougars (Conference USA) 2008 Houston 8–5 6–2 3rd (West) W Armed Forces

2009 Houston 10–4 6–2 1st (West) L Armed Forces
Going into 2010. Unavailable when CBJ was hired.

Willie Taggart

No experience at the time we made the CDD hire. Since, he's shown:

2010 WKU 2–10 2–6 9th


2011 WKU 7–5 7–1 2nd


2012 WKU 7–5 4–4 5th Little Caesars Pizza[n 1]
in the Sunbelt Conference.

Roughly equivalent. Subpar compared to CBJ.

Dave Doeren

No experience when we hire CDD. Less experience than our current coach when we hired him.

Greg Roman

NFL OC with no head coaching experience. May have been a big splash and a wonderful hire. Not sure the administration wanted to give the rebuild to a coach with no HC experience. I know they didn't when CBJ was hired.

All of those people would have come here in a second had we offered them.

Logical fallacy. You don't know that. Even if they would have, you've failed to demonstrate that, at the time, they would have been bigger/better hires than the hires that were made. 20/20's easy isn't it?

We landed in the MacIntyre/Tuberville/Mullen/Rhoads tier, and I'm not even certain I'd take Jones over any of those guys.

Cool. More personal opinion to under-gird and argument. Outstanding.

 

[Oskie Volum]

Kevin Sumlin would have crawled to Knoxville for the job in 2010, and this year you can pick pretty much any of the new coaching hires around the country as being at least arguably better than Jones.

U have no proof of this, and if u do than provide it or stop saying it. Also his current success is based on the situation he walked into in College Station and what Sherman left him. Just like his success at UH was based on what Briles left him. Nothing on Sumlins resume proves that he could have had any success in 2010.

Drives me nuts that people can't understand that Dooley's connections and familiarity with the SEC made him a better candidate than most at the time. Hammy was in no place to teach an SEC neophyte.

Seriously some of yall talk like yall know everything yet it seems yall have never interviewed and hired anyone before.

 

[KBVol]

How do you know? Did he call you? Or are you making argument via assumption?



Houston Cougars (Conference USA) 2008 Houston 8–5 6–2 3rd (West) W Armed Forces

2009 Houston 10–4 6–2 1st (West) L Armed Forces
Going into 2010. Unavailable when CBJ was hired.



No experience at the time we made the CDD hire. Since, he's shown:

2010 WKU 2–10 2–6 9th


2011 WKU 7–5 7–1 2nd


2012 WKU 7–5 4–4 5th Little Caesars Pizza[n 1]
in the Sunbelt Conference.

Roughly equivalent. Subpar compared to CBJ.


No experience when we hire CDD. Less experience than our current coach when we hired him.



NFL OC with no head coaching experience. May have been a big splash and a wonderful hire. Not sure the administration wanted to give the rebuild to a coach with no HC experience. I know they didn't when CBJ was hired.



Logical fallacy. You don't know that. Even if they would have, you've failed to demonstrate that, at the time, they would have been bigger/better hires than the hires that were made. 20/20's easy isn't it?



Cool. More personal opinion to under-gird and argument. Outstanding.

BOOM! Blew his lame arse "arguments" out of the water. Nice job Crush!

 

[Orange_Crush]

"If Sumlin were better than Jones then I would know it; in fact I do not know it; therefore they are roughly equivalent."

"Are there any data points to which I can compare coaches? Yes. I'll use them to form my decision."

I even posted said data points.

Nice try. You really are proving you have no concept of this.

 

[BaldBiker]

BOOM! Blew his lame arse "arguments" out of the water. Nice job

Actually he's been blowing his lame ass arguments out of the water the whole time. He just upped the size of the nails in the coffin with this post.

Good on ya Crush. :hi:

 

[NashVol11]

How do you know? Did he call you? Or are you making argument via assumption?

We spoke to his representatives and he was definitely interested. Cheek didn't sign off on it. I'm glad you didn't try to argue that he would be a worse hire than Jones, though, because that would be extremely stupid.

No experience at the time we made the CDD hire. Since, he's shown:

2010 WKU 2–10 2–6 9th

2011 WKU 7–5 7–1 2nd

2012 WKU 7–5 4–4 5th Little Caesars Pizza[n 1]
in the Sunbelt Conference.

Roughly equivalent. Subpar compared to CBJ.

Roughly equivalent? Please go ahead and look up WKU's record the year before he got there, then get back to me.

No experience when we hire CDD. Less experience than our current coach when we hired him.

Oh, forget everything then. He has a far superior winning percentage and has already gone to a far superior bowl, but Butch Jones has more experience. Wonderful point.

Logical fallacy. You don't know that. Even if they would have, you've failed to demonstrate that, at the time, they would have been bigger/better hires than the hires that were made. 20/20's easy isn't it?

First of all, anyone and everyone would have been a bigger/better hire than Dooley. It's funny because you're acting like that statement is based on hindsight, while sjt is mad at me for doing the exact opposite. I said Dooley was the worst hire in the country from day 1, and he was.

 

[NashVol11]

"Are there any data points to which I can compare coaches? Yes. I'll use them to form my decision."

I even posted said data points.

Nice try. You really are proving you have no concept of this.

Which data points are those?

 

[Orange_Crush]

Kevin Sumlin

CUSA - Three year record
2008 Houston 8–5 6–2 3rd (West) W Armed Forces

2009 Houston 10–4 6–2 1st (West) L Armed Forces

2010 Houston 5–7 4–4 3rd (West)



CDD

WAC - three year record
2007 Louisiana Tech 5–7 4–4 T–4th


2008 Louisiana Tech 8–5 5–3 T–2nd W Independence

2009 Louisiana Tech 4–8 3–5 T–5th

Butch Jones

Central Michigan Chippewas (Mid-American Conference) (2007–2009) 2007 Central Michigan 8–6 6–1 1st (West) L Motor City

2008 Central Michigan 8–5 6–2 T–2nd (West) L Motor City

2009 Central Michigan 11–2 8–0 1st (West) GMAC* 24 23 Central Michigan: 27–13 20–3 * Did not coach bowl game Cincinnati Bearcats (Big East Conference) (2010–2012) 2010 Cincinnati 4–8 2–5 7th


2011 Cincinnati 10–3 5–2 T–1st W Liberty 21 25 2012 Cincinnati 9–3 5–2 T–1st Belk* 22
Cincinnati: 23–14 12–9 * Did not coach bowl game
You are correct. Only CDD and CKS are "roughly equivalent". CBJ has more experience. Since my original argument was comparing CKS to our current coach, I threw CDD in there out of pity for your argument.




Awesome! Another argument based on precognition. Even given that you can read minds, exactly what would future results have to do with the conversation we were having about coaches' records at the time of the UT hire. Hmmm...




I'd love it if you would be honest to what I actually said. I'll help.

"Oh, one guy who, at the time, was roughly equivalent to the one that you want out now, who would be following a coach that left of his own accord... "

Thanks. :hi:



Opinion, precognition and mind reading. You're an impressive dude.

Which data points are those?

...