Maybe the problem isn't with Jay Graham, Tee Martin, Vonn Bell...

[FenianVol]

OP and Champyvol giving a great argument to those opposed to freedom of speech. So a dude can't even coach a game before he is judged a failure huh? I think an IQ test should be submitted before people are allowed to post in internet forums...just sayin

 

[Advol]

Doesnt Gruden own some land in East Tennerrseee??

The Vol Sheep are shearin up before the poor man coaches 1 game, let alone 1 season.

This Program will NEVER and i mean NEVER return to any thing close to the top until Hart and Cheek are gone. You can blame the Coach all you want, but the worker bees have to have an Administration that has an inkling of enough intelligence to run the Business we all know and love called UT Athletics. A Several hundred million dollar business that is falling apart!!

I wunder if Hammie is still hiding out in Africa??

 

[NashVol11]

Doesnt Gruden own some land in East Tennerrseee??

The Vol Sheep are shearin up before the poor man coaches 1 game, let alone 1 season.

This Program will NEVER and i mean NEVER return to any thing close to the top until Hart and Cheek are gone. You can blame the Coach all you want, but the worker bees have to have an Administration that has an inkling of enough intelligence to run the Business we all know and love called UT Athletics. A Several hundred million dollar business that is falling apart!!

I wunder if Hammie is still hiding out in Africa??

Hart and Cheek are the real problem. But they know that no matter who they hire, the fanbase is going to convince themselves he's awesome within a week...and as long as that's true, I don't think anything's going to change.

 

[VolunteerHillbilly]

OP and Champyvol giving a great argument to those opposed to freedom of speech. So a dude can't even coach a game before he is judged a failure huh? I think an IQ test should be submitted before people are allowed to post in internet forums...just sayin

It takes both recruiting and coaching to win in this conference. Early returns on the recruiting side are middlin' at best and the loss of JG is a minus until someone with a better recruiting pedigree in the SEC is hired to replace him. Barring an epic meltdown we're stuck with CBJ through the 2015 season. We'll get the chance to see him coach. Until then, all that we have to discuss is the pedigree of his staff, the results of 2013 recruiting, and how we're setting up with the 2014 class.

 

[therealitytheory]

Hart and Cheek are the real problem.

Th Hart/Cheek cabal has been in place all of two years and are only responsible for the firing of Dooley and the hire of Jones. The former being widely lauded by Vol fans everywhere....the latter obviously doesn't sit well with grudenites and the like such as yourself.

 

[JOEY'S ALL VOL !!!]

It takes both recruiting and coaching to win in this conference. Early returns on the recruiting side are middlin' at best and the loss of JG is a minus until someone with a better recruiting pedigree in the SEC is hired to replace him. Barring an epic meltdown we're stuck with CBJ through the 2015 season. We'll get the chance to see him coach. Until then, all that we have to discuss is the pedigree of his staff, the results of 2013 recruiting, and how we're setting up with the 2014 class.

This pretty much sums it up.

 

[thomaseusin]

Your panties... It has sand in it

 

[gnm53108]

Will our '13 schedule really be a fair assessment?:unsure:

It's as fair as last years schedule...or 11, or any Tennessee schedule for that matter. It's called playing with the big boys.

Sjt is right. As far as our roster goes, this year will be his best untill atleast 15. Luckily it will also be the most talent he has ever had as a coach.

Fair or not this is sec football.

 

[1972 Grad]

Every single coach that left Bama got promoted either to a coordinator job or to the NFL.

Like Sunseri last year? It doesn't mean that they are necessarily better coaches. It means that they were coaches on the team with the best players.

 

[champyvol]

It takes both recruiting and coaching to win in this conference. Early returns on the recruiting side are middlin' at best and the loss of JG is a minus until someone with a better recruiting pedigree in the SEC is hired to replace him. Barring an epic meltdown we're stuck with CBJ through the 2015 season. We'll get the chance to see him coach. Until then, all that we have to discuss is the pedigree of his staff, the results of 2013 recruiting, and how we're setting up with the 2014 class.

couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[oregonvol]

Which is why all the "best" like VKAman have shown up to "contribute" to it.

Just remember when you see him and a few others post here that they pretend to be "rational" but aren't. They draw an opinion early then argue as if that opinion were already established fact. So it makes them hostile when you point out to them that they're pov is not "true"... at least not yet. To them, their opinion IS already true. No evidence is needed other than it being their declaration of what IS. Their egos are just that large... and they are just that blind to it.

What are you even talking about? I haven't gotten hostile. Read the OP. I asked questions. Then, alot of your ilk came here to insult me, because they were so offended by the notion of someone asking questions.

If what I say isn't rational, then it is very odd why I've been right most of the time and the "posivols" are almost always proven wrong.

 

[daj2576]

VN when we hire a good RB coach: "Great hire! I'm excited to see how much better our run game is with someone who actually knows what he's doing"

VN when we lose a good RB coach: "All he was teaching was fundamentals, everyone knows them and anyone can coach them. We didn't need him."

Well there is no doubt that fans take emotional swings to the extreme. Fans over-emphasize the importance of a coach both when he comes and goes.

The reality is somewhere in the middle.

 

[sjt18]

And some "rational" people like sjt can have all the evidence in the world that Derek Dooley sucks but still need him to be around for like 15 years before they realize it.

Here's more proof for you.

I argued that Dooley took over a train wreck that wasn't going to be fixed in two years. I argued that you could have looked at the roster when Dooley took over and have KNOWN that the next two years were going to be very tough. I argued from the very start that he had to prove something in year three... and said after the USCe loss that he had failed and should be fired then.

But according to VKA... that somehow translates into not recognizing Dooley's shortcomings or advocating 15 years... If you engage VKA be prepared for this kind of dishonesty on his part.

 

[sjt18]

Oh by the way, sjt, I remember you talking up Jones based on his huge win over a "better" West Virginia team. Since you tend to disappear when proven completely wrong, I'm still waiting on an answer to my question of when exactly that happened...

I honestly don't remember saying it but if I did then I was incorrect. Sorry about that.

"Talking him up"? He's beaten teams with more talent. He beat Beamer.

I tend to "disappear" when proven completely wrong? You have so seldom proven me "completely wrong" that there's no way you could establish a "tendency" for me disappearing afterwards.

When PROVEN wrong, I have no problem admitting it at all.

 

[sjt18]

Will our '13 schedule really be a fair assessment?:unsure:

I don't know. But I don't think it will ultimately matter. As you can see in this discussion, many were ready to can Dooley after year two in spite of those first two years not providing a "fair" basis for assessment. Jones has to prove something in the first three years. The next two years will not get easier based on roster strength.

Dooley was handled exactly right IMO. He got time and opportunity to prove he deserved to keep the job and failed. If you don't give coaches a "fair chance"... even coaches that end up not being good... then you risk firing the guy who will resurrect your program.

This fall is his chance to earn a 4th year IMO but even then I suspect he will be under the guy if he makes it to year 4.

 

[sjt18]

people can say the same thing about you bro. opinions are opinions that is it. rational people would have to say butch is off to a rocky start. if he is to blame is all up to opinion.:salute:

No. Not really. I do state and defend opinions. I do not demand that others accept them as "fact"... like VKA and a few others do.

I would not consider the departure of Graham an indication of a "rocky" start unless it is an indication that he expected CJG to win some of those recruiting battles then didn't try hard to keep him after he didn't.

The recruiting class wasn't what he needed. He needed a couple more top flight LB's and a DE. He needed at least one top shelf RB.

All the non-sense and complaining about the staff he hired is just that. If he believes they are the "best staff in America" then... they had better be or he'll be crushed. That was "coach speak" that you should expect from a brash guy like Jones. He brought people he believes in... that could make them "the best" to work for him.

He's done some good things like engaging HS coaches/programs and reaching out to former players. He had a somewhat disappointing recruiting class. The bulk of what will make it a "rocky" start begins in Spring Practice.

 

[sjt18]

What are you even talking about? I haven't gotten hostile. Read the OP. I asked questions. Then, alot of your ilk came here to insult me, because they were so offended by the notion of someone asking questions.

If what I say isn't rational, then it is very odd why I've been right most of the time and the "posivols" are almost always proven wrong.

I did not see you mentioned in the post you responded to... but nonetheless the sum of your recent posts go well beyond just "asking questions".

I don't know what Jones will or won't do. I have not said he was "great" and it really kind of bothers me when folks get all giddy over his words. I am also not ready to throw stones until he actually has a chance to prove what he can do.

Taking over a recruiting class that the last staff had quit on weeks earlier and failing to pull off a miracle finish for a program that hasn't won in awhile... doesn't really constitute a "chance" IMO.

And that is really all of substance he's done so far. Either his staff can coach or they can't. They've had success in other jobs so we'll see if it translates.

Losing Graham has more emotional impact than real impact. He made moderate improvements in RB play in '12. But he really only looks to have made a positive impact with one significant recruit- North. He then apparently thought UT should enter a bidding war for his services. They chose not to and rightly so IMO.

If Spencer is hired then UT gets a quality coach who should be a good recruiter too.

 

[sjt18]

Oregonvol, there is a "tactic" used by people that you seem to be engaged in. They asking leading questions with great frequency rather than making direct and potentially unpopular statements. When confronted, they can just say "I was just asking a question"... when their intent was to push a point of view with leading questions.

Husband asks wife: "Do you think you ought to change your hair style?" Maybe the first time the wife takes the question at face value. If he asks it frequently, she is very likely to understand he does not like her hair style.

So when you basically ask "Does Jones stink as a coach?" in various forms... your message becomes pretty clear.

 

[Orange_Crush]

Here's more proof for you.

I argued that Dooley took over a train wreck that wasn't going to be fixed in two years. I argued that you could have looked at the roster when Dooley took over and have KNOWN that the next two years were going to be very tough. I argued from the very start that he had to prove something in year three... and said after the USCe loss that he had failed and should be fired then.

But according to VKA... that somehow translates into not recognizing Dooley's shortcomings or advocating 15 years... If you engage VKA be prepared for this kind of dishonesty on his part.

Some of these negas are the kings of straw men, sjt. We argued that CDD needed time before being judged. They turn that into a "We were right; you were wrong" argument when he needed time and was then judged. lol



Oh well...

 

[Orange_Crush]

I don't know. But I don't think it will ultimately matter. As you can see in this discussion, many were ready to can Dooley after year two in spite of those first two years not providing a "fair" basis for assessment. Jones has to prove something in the first three years. The next two years will not get easier based on roster strength.

Dooley was handled exactly right IMO. He got time and opportunity to prove he deserved to keep the job and failed. If you don't give coaches a "fair chance"... even coaches that end up not being good... then you risk firing the guy who will resurrect your program.

This fall is his chance to earn a 4th year IMO but even then I suspect he will be under the guy if he makes it to year 4.

You also severely limit the pool of coaches that will be willing to come in after the firing, while driving up future buy-out clauses. Coaches want to know that they will be given a fair shake-- especially the kind of quality coaches you need for a rebuild.

 

[BaldBiker]

Some of these negas are the kings of straw men, sjt. We argued that CDD needed time before being judged. They turn that into a "We were right; you were wrong" argument when he needed time and was then judged. lol



Oh well...

Good post. I backed DD. After he had been given an ample amount of time in my opinion, and then in my opinion was failing, I stopped backing him.

CBJ will get the same from me. I will give him time to prove he either can or can't take this program back to where it needs to be. Judging him before he has even coached his first practice here is just ridiculous.

 

[champyvol]

No. Not really. I do state and defend opinions. I do not demand that others accept them as "fact"... like VKA and a few others do.

I would not consider the departure of Graham an indication of a "rocky" start unless it is an indication that he expected CJG to win some of those recruiting battles then didn't try hard to keep him after he didn't.

The recruiting class wasn't what he needed. He needed a couple more top flight LB's and a DE. He needed at least one top shelf RB.

All the non-sense and complaining about the staff he hired is just that. If he believes they are the "best staff in America" then... they had better be or he'll be crushed. That was "coach speak" that you should expect from a brash guy like Jones. He brought people he believes in... that could make them "the best" to work for him.

He's done some good things like engaging HS coaches/programs and reaching out to former players. He had a somewhat disappointing recruiting class. The bulk of what will make it a "rocky" start begins in Spring Practice.

i can agree with most of that. i don't like the coach speak, wish jay was still here and was hoping for more out of the recruiting class. i guess that is the reason i'm not optomistic, when jones states things like this it gets you pumped and then in my opinion the coach speak just becomes a bummer when you see the reality.

 

[Orange_Crush]

Maybe the problem isn't with Jay Graham, Tee Martin, Vonn Bell......maybe it's the guy in charge? I like alot of the stuff Butch Jones says, but you have to wonder when all these guys say their heart is here but choose to go elsewhere as a "business decision"...they've seen this program up close, maybe Jones isn't what we want to believe he is. Maybe there's a reason he can only get mid major coaches or guys no one else wants for his staff (and has to give them huge raises to do so)?Maybe there's a reason he can't sign any of the top recruits who visited? Maybe, when you see things close-up, you see no progress being made.

Oregonvol, there is a "tactic" used by people that you seem to be engaged in. They asking leading questions with great frequency rather than making direct and potentially unpopular statements. When confronted, they can just say "I was just asking a question"... when their intent was to push a point of view with leading questions.

Husband asks wife: "Do you think you ought to change your hair style?" Maybe the first time the wife takes the question at face value. If he asks it frequently, she is very likely to understand he does not like her hair style.

So when you basically ask "Does Jones stink as a coach?" in various forms... your message becomes pretty clear.

For the record, the only question in the original post was a question only in the most technical sense. It had a question mark at the end. It was a statement with a question mark at the end.


Maybe the problem isn't with...

OV, if you seriously meant it as a question, then you would have been better served to ask the question, not in the form of its own answer. And then, not followed it with a collection of statements that supported the answer that you originally gave in the form of a question.

Only the imbeciles in the crowd would believe that you were just asking an innocent question with no agenda, and are taken aback that people interpreted it in any other way.

#AlexTrebek

I'll take "Internet Debating Tactics" for $1000 please.

 

[Orange_Crush]

...maybe it's the guy in charge? I like alot of the stuff Butch Jones says, but you have to wonder when all these guys say their heart is here but choose to go elsewhere as a "business decision"...they've seen this program up close, maybe Jones isn't what we want to believe he is. Maybe there's a reason he can only get mid major coaches or guys no one else wants for his staff (and has to give them huge raises to do so)?Maybe there's a reason he can't sign any of the top recruits who visited? Maybe, when you see things close-up, you see no progress being made.

What are you even talking about? I haven't gotten hostile. Read the OP. I asked questions. Then, alot of your ilk came here to insult me, because they were so offended by the notion of someone asking questions.

If what I say isn't rational, then it is very odd why I've been right most of the time and the "posivols" are almost always proven wrong.

NM

 

[DarthVisor]

Some of these negas are the kings of straw men, sjt. We argued that CDD needed time before being judged. They turn that into a "We were right; you were wrong" argument when he needed time and was then judged. lol



Oh well...

He shouldn't have been hired in the first place. He had a losing record at a WAC school and was an incompetent buffoon. He had no business EVER being a head coach in the SEC, especially at a storied school like UT.