Maybe the problem isn't with Jay Graham, Tee Martin, Vonn Bell...

[NashVol11]

He shouldn't have been hired in the first place. He had a losing record at a WAC school and was an incompetent buffoon. He had no business EVER being a head coach in the SEC, especially at a storied school like UT.

But saying this at the time was "being too mean" and "judging too quickly"...

 

[NashVol11]

Here's more proof for you.

I argued that Dooley took over a train wreck that wasn't going to be fixed in two years. I argued that you could have looked at the roster when Dooley took over and have KNOWN that the next two years were going to be very tough. I argued from the very start that he had to prove something in year three... and said after the USCe loss that he had failed and should be fired then.

But according to VKA... that somehow translates into not recognizing Dooley's shortcomings or advocating 15 years... If you engage VKA be prepared for this kind of dishonesty on his part.

And you've spent this entire offseason STILL trying to say that the worst hire in Tennessee history wasn't a bad hire. At least own what you say.

 

[NashVol11]

"Talking him up"? He's beaten teams with more talent. He beat Beamer.

Can you give me the record of the best team Jones has beaten?

 

[VolsByNature]

This place is amazing and Vol fans never cease to amaze me with their stupidity.

 

[NashVol11]

You also severely limit the pool of coaches that will be willing to come in after the firing, while driving up future buy-out clauses. Coaches want to know that they will be given a fair shake-- especially the kind of quality coaches you need for a rebuild.

Quality coaches aren't scared of ending up like Dooley. In fact, "quality" and "Dooley" should never be in the same sentence.

 

[DarthVisor]

But saying this at the time was "being too mean" and "judging too quickly"...

Some people have a hard time discerning being negative and acknowledging reality. Dooley was a garbage hire and an abortion of a head coach.

 

[Orange_Crush]

He shouldn't have been hired in the first place. He had a losing record at a WAC school and was an incompetent buffoon. He had no business EVER being a head coach in the SEC, especially at a storied school like UT.

That's your opinion, and you are welcome to it. I would have liked to have seen another hire at the time myself. But his limited experience before taking the job was not a key indicator of his future success. I think, if anything, we could say that there wasn't enough data to make a judgment at that time. Especially considering the fact that he *was already* UT's coach, it was rational to take a "wait and see" approach.

In any event, this does not change the fact that there are some here who are misrepresenting our original position by stating straw man arguments.

:hi:

 

[DarthVisor]

I honestly don't remember saying it but if I did then I was incorrect. Sorry about that.

"Talking him up"? He's beaten teams with more talent. He beat Beamer.

I tend to "disappear" when proven completely wrong? You have so seldom proven me "completely wrong" that there's no way you could establish a "tendency" for me disappearing afterwards.

When PROVEN wrong, I have no problem admitting it at all.

So did Mickey Matthews. I guess UT should have given him consideration.

 

[DarthVisor]

That's your opinion, and you are welcome to it. I would have liked to have seen another hire at the time myself. But his limited experience before taking the job was not a key indicator of his future success. I think, if anything, we could say that there wasn't enough data to make a judgment at that time. Especially considering the fact that he *was already* UT's coach, it was rational to take a "wait and see" approach.

In any event, this does not change the fact that there are some here who are misrepresenting our original position by stating straw man arguments.

:hi:

I understand and respect your position. :good!:

 

[Orange_Crush]

Quality coaches aren't scared of ending up like Dooley. In fact, "quality" and "Dooley" should never be in the same sentence.

Name the coaches that have lined up to coach here lately. Now, list the buy-out clauses of the ones that finally signed.

Thank you.

:hi:

 

[Orange_Crush]

I understand and respect your position. :good!:

Likewise.

:hi:

 

[NashVol11]

Especially considering the fact that he *was already* UT's coach, it was rational to take a "wait and see" approach.

That's the thing. When guys like Dooley or Jones get hired, VN melts down in dismay, as it should. Then, people start telling themselves that because he's the coach at UT and he's "doing his best" or whatever, they should defend him at every turn and talk about how he's going to be awesome. That's why Hart and Cheek can get away with anything they want.

Instead, people here seem to blame the players. Damn that Tyler Bray/Justin Hunter/Arian Foster for "laying down" and making our coach lose!

 

[NashVol11]

Name the coaches that have lined up to coach here lately. Now, list the buy-out clauses of the ones that finally signed.

Thank you.

:hi:

Kevin Sumlin would have crawled to Knoxville for the job in 2010, and this year you can pick pretty much any of the new coaching hires around the country as being at least arguably better than Jones.

 

[Orange_Crush]

That's the thing. When guys like Dooley or Jones get hired, VN melts down in dismay, as it should. Then, people start telling themselves that because he's the coach at UT and he's "doing his best" or whatever, they should defend him at every turn and talk about how he's going to be awesome. That's why Hart and Cheek can get away with anything they want.

Instead, people here seem to blame the players. Damn that Tyler Bray/Justin Hunter/Arian Foster for "laying down" and making our coach lose!

That's the thing? Really? UT can't hire coaches because we have a supposedly supportive fan base?

:good!:

UT went through about (at least) three coaches before signing our current coach because they have their pick of anyone they want? They just wanted their fourth choice more?

k:

That's the thing? Really?

Tell me again what coaches were lining up to coach at UT. Tell me again what the buy-out clauses were for our our last two. You threw some asinine red herrings out there instead of answering my questions.

 

[Orange_Crush]

Kevin Sumlin would have crawled to Knoxville for the job in 2010,

And the fan base would have crucified the decision as much as they did CDD and CBJ. A weak conference coach who hadn't proved himself. We deserve better and God bless 'Merica!

and this year you can pick pretty much any of the new coaching hires around the country as being at least arguably better than Jones.

Arguably...? "Most" of the "pretty much any" of the new coaching hires carry a .680 winning percentage with a 4-of-6 conference championship record?

And most of them weren't standing in line to get to UT. That's the discussion here, isn't it? Let's not change the subject, please.

:hi:

 

[NashVol11]

That's the thing? Really? UT can't hire coaches because we have a supposedly supportive fan base?

:good!:

Hart and Cheek can be as cheap as they want to because the fanbase will eventually drool all over anyone they select, even if it's a guy with a losing record in the WAC.

Tell me again what coaches were lining up to coach at UT. Tell me again what the buy-out clauses were for our our last two. You threw some asinine red herrings out there instead of answering my questions.

Good point. When I say, "Kevin Sumlin was desperate to coach at UT," I'm completely avoiding your question of who wanted to coach at Tennessee.

 

[NashVol11]

And the fan base would have crucified the decision as much as they did CDD and CBJ. A weak conference coach who hadn't proved himself. We deserve better and God bless 'Merica!

...no, they wouldn't. Dooley had proven himself to suck.

Arguably...? "Most" of the "pretty much any" of the new coaching hires carry a .680 winning percentage with a 4-of-6 conference championship record?

And most of them weren't standing in line to get to UT. That's the discussion here, isn't it? Let's not change the subject, please.

:hi:

Look up Dave Doeren's record as a head coach and get back to me. Also, let me know what is the best bowl game his teams qualified for, and tell me whether it's better or worse than the Liberty Bowl.

 

[therealitytheory]

That's the thing. When guys like Dooley or Jones get hired, VN melts down in dismay, as it should. Then, people start telling themselves that because he's the coach at UT and he's "doing his best" or whatever, they should defend him at every turn and talk about how he's going to be awesome. That's why Hart and Cheek can get away with anything they want.

Hart arrived here a year and a half ago, exactly one year after the BoT directed the UTAD to report to the Chancellor (Cheek) rather than the system president.

Under Hart, Dooley has been fired and Jones has been hired. And the annual athletic 6 mil gift has been suspended (perhaps indefinitely). And that's the sum of what Hart & Co. have "gotten away" with to this point.

Well..besides not being able to close the deal on Gruden of course...he was ours for the taking, right?

 

[Orange_Crush]

Good point. When I say, "Kevin Sumlin was desperate to coach at UT," I'm completely avoiding your question of who wanted to coach at Tennessee.

Oh, one guy who, at the time, was roughly equivalent to the one that you want out now, who would be following a coach that left of his own accord...

I thought we were talking about all the big named guys you're inferring would come here after we've fired a coach or two a year into their tenure. Isn't that what we're discussing?

My bad.

:hi:

 

[Orange_Crush]

...no, they wouldn't. Dooley had proven himself to suck.



Look up Dave Doeren's record as a head coach and get back to me. Also, let me know what is the best bowl game his teams qualified for, and tell me whether it's better or worse than the Liberty Bowl.

A guy with two year's HFB coaching experience at N Illinois is who you would rather have than CBJ? And that's "most" of the available coaches with interest in coaching at UT? One is "most" of the coaches with interest in UT? One?

You're not really making your case for the idea that so many coaches are standing in line to coach at a UT program that would fire their coaches a year into their tenure, with a small buy-out.

 

[Orange_Crush]

Hart arrived here a year and a half ago, exactly one year after the BoT directed the UTAD to report to the Chancellor (Cheek) rather than the system president.

Under Hart, Dooley has been fired and Jones has been hired. And the annual athletic 6 mil gift has been suspended (perhaps indefinitely). And that's the sum of what Hart & Co. have "gotten away" with to this point.

Well..besides not being able to close the deal on Gruden of course...he was ours for the taking, right?

Those damnable facts... How is anyone expected to have a discussion around here?

:hi:

 

[sjt18]

That's the thing. When guys like Dooley or Jones get hired, VN melts down in dismay, as it should.

Why? The fact is they shouldn't. You may feel great about that tingle running up your leg but it does NOT assure success. Sumlin was a mid-major coach with a resume not as impressive as Jones'. Freeze- same. Malzahn comes from a mid-major after being passed over numerous times by big programs.

Neither Saban nor Miles had outstanding resumes when hired by LSU. Richt was an OC at FSU and never a HC. Muschamp was a DC and never a HC.

Spurrier took more than 5 years to turn around USCe and that program was better off than UT when Dooley took over...

How many times has Dennis Erickson been declared the "savior" of a program?

Sherman was a sure bet to turn TAM around, right? Weis?

Kiffin brought the kind of "flash" you seem to think is necessary... he turned his back on UT and is currently on a hot seat at USC. He has UNDERPERFORMED at USC by a wide margin.

The fact is the hire you want made isn't out there unless you throw $10 million a year at Saban. Almost every program that turns it around does so by finding a lower level HC or coordinator who is a "great" coach waiting to prove it.

Then, people start telling themselves that because he's the coach at UT and he's "doing his best" or whatever, they should defend him at every turn and talk about how he's going to be awesome. That's why Hart and Cheek can get away with anything they want.

No. Only a few are doing that... and they are no more delusional than folks like you who think it is reasonable to "melt down in dismay" over the hire of a coach like Jones.

Most of us say, "He's the coach. He gets our support. He has to succeed or someone else gets their shot." Eventually the right coach walks into the situation at the right time. This was always the danger when it became necessary to get rid of Fulmer. It may take awhile before you find the right guy again.

Instead, people here seem to blame the players. Damn that Tyler Bray/Justin Hunter/Arian Foster for "laying down" and making our coach lose!

I see. So it is OK to condemn a coach BEFORE he's had a chance to prove what he can/can't do... but not to criticize "star" players for what they've actually done, right?

 

[sjt18]

Hart and Cheek can be as cheap as they want to because the fanbase will eventually drool all over anyone they select, even if it's a guy with a losing record in the WAC.

That's a ridiculous statement... even for you. You are exaggerating to the point of lying about what the "fanbase" is or has done. Accepting what is and waiting to see what happens is hardly "drooling" over the guy... unless being a fan in and of itself is "drooling".

Good point. When I say, "Kevin Sumlin was desperate to coach at UT," I'm completely avoiding your question of who wanted to coach at Tennessee.

Kevin Sumlin was not available at the right time. The end. He also inherited a decent roster and a Heisman trophy winner at TAM. And as others mentioned... Sumlin's resume was no better than Jones' when he left Houston. In four years, he never won the CUSA. Jones won or shared 2 titles each in the Big East and MAC. Sumlin's best bowl win was the "TicketCity Bowl" vs Penn State right after the scandal broke. Jones' best bowl win was probably Vandy. His overall win % was 67% (Jones 65%). Jones had one losing season in 6 years. Sumlin one in 4 years.

These are coaches with virtually identical resumes coming into the SEC except for Jones' championships yet the one UT didn't get is to you a vastly superior coach... for no real reason other than he's the one UT didn't get.

 

[Orange_Crush]

That's a ridiculous statement... even for you. You are exaggerating to the point of lying about what the "fanbase" is or has done. Accepting what is and waiting to see what happens is hardly "drooling" over the guy... unless being a fan in and of itself is "drooling".



Kevin Sumlin was not available at the right time. The end. He also inherited a decent roster and a Heisman trophy winner at TAM. And as others mentioned... Sumlin's resume was no better than Jones' when he left Houston. In four years, he never won the CUSA. Jones won or shared 2 titles each in the Big East and MAC. Sumlin's best bowl win was the "TicketCity Bowl" vs Penn State right after the scandal broke. Jones' best bowl win was probably Vandy. His overall win % was 67% (Jones 65%). Jones had one losing season in 6 years. Sumlin one in 4 years.

These are coaches with virtually identical resumes coming into the SEC except for Jones' championships yet the one UT didn't get is to you a vastly superior coach... for no real reason other than he's the one UT didn't get.

well said. That was kind of my point sjt. I think we should also keep in mind that conversation was initially about the effects of firing coaches immediately into their tenure. Supposedly, there were many big named coaches waiting to come in to UT, but the AD didn't want them.

The examples to back this up were two small market coaches with records worse than the guy we have.

Just thought some context would add to the discussion.

 

[Vol4life25]

thats like saying youd be upset if a pee-wee team couldnt beat a high school team

Ehhhh more like a 2A vs a 6A