Michigan spied on Vols last year

#176
#176
UTFranklinVol said:
To me, what Michigan is/was doing is inevitable and even outmoded. With the advancement of AI, tools that can scrub video and predict plays or decipher signals is inevitable. Just do what baseball and the NFL do and put audio in the QBs helmet to relay plays. This problem is instantly solved by existing technology.
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How would the rest of our players get the play if only the QB has audio in his helmet?
 
#178
#178
AlwaysOrangeNeverBlue said:
The phrasing of the post I replied to I interpreted as to state that all sign stealing is legal; which is not true. Regardless of the reasoning the rule was put in place, the rule does not allow in-person scouting and thus, was violated. If I misinterpreted your post, I do sincerely apologize. I don't think any of us are Michigan-sympathizers by any means lol. A lot of not-yet-concrete information anyway, so maybe we're all a little premature to be jumping to these conclusions without the evidence fully out yet. Either way, I think there's something sinister afoot that spreads beyond just Michigan.
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I don't like Michigan for sure but I am not letting that blind me from seeing how foolish all this hubbub is. The NCAA is using a rule that wasn't designed to prevent cheating to make it look like Michigan was somehow doing something other schools dont do all the time (steal signs, steal playbooks, bug the opposing locker room etc). The notion that this is all about Michigan being a bunch of dirty cheaters is all way way overblown due mostly to the NCAA trying to remain relevant.
 
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#181
#181
UTFranklinVol said:
I don't like Michigan for sure but I am not letting that blind me from seeing how foolish all this hubbub is. The NCAA is using a rule that wasn't designed to prevent cheating to make it look like Michigan was somehow doing something other schools dont do all the time (steal signs, steal playbooks, bug the opposing locker room etc). The notion that this is all about Michigan being a bunch of dirty cheaters is all way way overblown due mostly to the NCAA trying to remain relevant.
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I think we just disagree as to the impact / difference between what is permissible sign-stealing and impermissible sign stealing. But then again, that's the fun part of sports and fandom, we disagree on subjective things. Otherwise, it'd just be reading a spreadsheet lol.

I think one of the things that's rubbing a lot of people the wrong way isn't even just that it was cheating, but that Harbaugh and Michigan have always taken a "we're holier than thou" and smarter than every one stance. When in reality, they might be cheating more than anyone and dumber than everyone at keeping it hidden lol.

Bugging locker rooms is something I haven't heard of, any instances you have heard of? I have heard of one unnamed team using those sonic-type microphones pointed at the other sideline to listen in.
 
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#184
#184
UTFranklinVol said:
I don't like Michigan for sure but I am not letting that blind me from seeing how foolish all this hubbub is. The NCAA is using a rule that wasn't designed to prevent cheating to make it look like Michigan was somehow doing something other schools dont do all the time (steal signs, steal playbooks, bug the opposing locker room etc). The notion that this is all about Michigan being a bunch of dirty cheaters is all way way overblown due mostly to the NCAA trying to remain relevant.
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Again, you continue to say sign stealing is permissible. It can be permissible, depending on how it's done. Michigan was not doing it in a permissible way. As explained by someone with vastly more experience than either of us, I'll leave it to Bob Stoops:

“If it's true, oh, absolutely [it is a big deal]. That's ridiculous. Everyone (saying), ‘Oh, it happens all the time!' No, it doesn't. I've never heard of that. In all my years of football and every team I've ever been on, sure, do we look across the field and if you can see it, that's your job to do. You know what I'm saying, if I'm able to just in my plain eye look over there and know what they're doing, I should be doing that…But to video people and to send people to scout and marry up a signal with the play … No, no, no. That's terrible. It goes against everything we're about. That's wrong, if it happened.”

If the allegations are true, Michigan illegally stole signals, which is something that can be done legally in certain ways, yet Michigan decided the rules didn't apply to them. Not saying others don't do it illegally, as well, but not to where they've been caught. So yes, if this is true, they cheated. Again, if you and I both independently acquire $1,000,000.00 in the next 6 weeks. You did it legally; I did it illegally. Did you cheat too, because we got to the same end result, but I did it outside the rules? That's essentially what's being argued. If so, then rules are irrelevant and have no place in sports. Another one: You and I play a game of monopoly. I steal $300 at the beginning and you don't notice. Game goes on. You eventually win, even though I cheated. I then divulge to you that I cheated. Didn't change your outcome, but are you ever going to play with me again knowing that I compromise the integrity of the game?

Further - this Stalions was already doing it (per admission in old texts) the way others were legally doing it. So why did he suddenly start doing it in an illegal manner? Because of the massive differential in information and advantage gained through the illegal method. You don't cheat in sports just to cheat.
 
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#185
#185
AlwaysOrangeNeverBlue said:
Again, you continue to say sign stealing is permissible. It can be permissible, depending on how it's done. Michigan was not doing it in a permissible way. As explained by someone with vastly more experience than either of us, I'll leave it to Bob Stoops:

“If it's true, oh, absolutely [it is a big deal]. That's ridiculous. Everyone (saying), ‘Oh, it happens all the time!' No, it doesn't. I've never heard of that. In all my years of football and every team I've ever been on, sure, do we look across the field and if you can see it, that's your job to do. You know what I'm saying, if I'm able to just in my plain eye look over there and know what they're doing, I should be doing that…But to video people and to send people to scout and marry up a signal with the play … No, no, no. That's terrible. It goes against everything we're about. That's wrong, if it happened.”

If the allegations are true, Michigan illegally stole signals, which is something that can be done legally in certain ways, yet Michigan decided the rules didn't apply to them. Not saying others don't do it illegally, as well, but not to where they've been caught. So yes, if this is true, they cheated. Again, if you and I both independently acquire $1,000,000.00 in the next 6 weeks. You did it legally; I did it illegally. Did you cheat too, because we got to the same end result, but I did it outside the rules? That's essentially what's being argued. If so, then rules are irrelevant and have no place in sports. Another one: You and I play a game of monopoly. I steal $300 at the beginning and you don't notice. Game goes on. You eventually win, even though I cheated. I then divulge to you that I cheated. Didn't change your outcome, but are you ever going to play with me again knowing that I compromise the integrity of the game?

Further - this Stalions was already doing it (per admission in old texts) the way others were legally doing it. So why did he suddenly start doing it in an illegal manner? Because of the massive differential in information and advantage gained through the illegal method. You don't cheat in sports just to cheat.
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They did a legal thing in an illegal way, breaking a rule that was never designed to make the thing illegal to prevent competitive advantage or "cheating". It's a really really obscure cost savings law being used in a way that to be honest doesn't really matter now and didn't much matter in 1994.

To use your example if I got my $1000000 dollars by withdrawing it from a bank in person and you got your $1000000 by using an ATM machine and there was some obscure law that says it's illegal to withdraw your money from a bank because you don't need to go to banks anymore there are ATMs now. People would look sideways at you and question the wisdom of the rule being a rule in the first place. Illegal? Technically. Logical and without any real merit? No and yes.
 
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#186
#186
AlwaysOrangeNeverBlue said:
Stealing signs can be 100% legal, if done in-game, via TV broadcasts, or other publicly available footage. It is expressly not legal since 1994 to do what they did. There's legal ways to make a lot of money; there's illegal ways to make a lot of money. It is 100% illegal to go to another team's game to record their signals. There's not even a real debate about the interpretation of the rule in this regard man; even from the UM fans. Whether it should be a rule is up for debate, of course.
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Also, when it was outlawed in 1994, everyone didn't have their own personal video recording device in their pocket.
 
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#187
#187
pimo1 said:
People are missing the real point of this whole thing. They are all focusing on Michigan when sign stealing is common in college football. Trust me it happens in the SEC also. All schools don't do it but the majority of 'top' teams do.
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So the top teams are doing it just like Harbaugh has been? Cool. Would love to see the proof of that.
 
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#188
#188
UTFranklinVol said:
They did a legal thing in an illegal way, breaking a rule that was never designed to make the thing illegal to prevent competitive advantage or "cheating". It's a really really obscure cost savings law being used in a way that to be honest doesn't really matter now and didn't much matter in 1994.

To use your example if I got my $1000000 dollars by withdrawing it from a bank in person and you got your $1000000 by using an ATM machine and there was some obscure law that says it's illegal to withdraw your money from a bank because you don't need to go to banks anymore there are ATMs now. People would look sideways at you and question the wisdom of the rule being a rule in the first place. Illegal? Technically. Logical and without any real merit? No and yes.
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“They did [it] in an illegal way.” Lol that really should be it.

As for it not providing much of an advantage, Harbaugh had a winning percentage of 69% prior to doing it. Now it’s almost 92%. That’s not minimal.

Frankly, I’m going to concede to the many legendary coaches who are calling this absurd, unethical, and unprecedented. They know more than you or I.

Also didn’t address if you’re ever going to play monopoly with me!!!
 
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#189
#189
BigOrangeTrain said:
So the top teams are doing it just like Harbaugh has been? Cool. Would love to see the proof of that.
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If you would have asked me 2 weeks ago if I thought every team in the country did this, I would have thought that was a no brainer and of course they did, why wouldn't they? it's a public event not top secret government research! Anyone can get a ticket to a game and check out what other teams are doing. Cell phones with good cameras have existed for 15 years and video recorders long before that.There's no way that in the last 3 decades that Michigan just thought this up as a good thing to start doing. Nah, pass. I ain't buying it. I have no proof but I'm still calling BS
 
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#190
#190
AlwaysOrangeNeverBlue said:
“They did [it] in an illegal way.” Lol that really should be it.

As for it not providing much of an advantage, Harbaugh had a winning percentage of 69% prior to doing it. Now it’s almost 92%. That’s not minimal.

Frankly, I’m going to concede to the many legendary coaches who are calling this absurd, unethical, and unprecedented. They know more than you or I.

Also didn’t address if you’re ever going to play monopoly with me!!!
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Again, I stand by my notion that this is all hogwash and his increase in winning is due just to this then? Nah. I believe teams do scouting all the time. It's no matter really we don't have a say either way.
 
#193
#193
Carp said:
I was thinking in relation to the opposing team. Of course they wouldn't make their signals visible, but you would think the opposing teams signals might be visible.
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The back/endzone copy is so wide that you wouldn't be able to tell. The sideline copy would either be from the back (you couldn't see them), or across the field where the film wouldn't even pick it up clearly enough. Plus, the film is basically right before the snap to the whistle. The signals are given before the filmer hits record for each play.
 
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#194
#194
My understanding is what is against the rules is the 'in person' scouting of a team during the season. The process of watching the signs that the other team makes and deciphering them during the game time would be part of the game IF a coaching staff chooses to focus on watching the other teams' sidelines verses concentrating on their own coaching.

There is also the issue of Michigan possibly selling the 'footage' they captured during the 'illegal in-person' scouting to other teams.

The NCAA will need to do something here and quick. If they don't, they are saying it is okay to send a representative to football games for the purpose of filming the sidelines. And they are saying it is okay to share what you find with others who may need it.
 
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#196
#196
For the people saying it isn't a big deal. SC had 10 drives, and 9 went for touchdowns....NINE!!!!!! That's hard to do against a scout team or D2 program. Yes, our D wasn't great last year, but that is almost absurd. And for them to be extremely pedestrian ALL YEAR on offense and suddenly figure it out against the 2 Top 10 teams on their schedule at the end of the year is more than enough coincidence for me to believe it.
 
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#197
#197
Assuming there is truth to this - what is the penalty? This impacts so many things and I'm sure a lot of folks lost lots of money on those two games SC won.
 
#198
#198
volinSmyrna said:
For the people saying it isn't a big deal. SC had 10 drives, and 9 went for touchdowns....NINE!!!!!! That's hard to do against a scout team or D2 program. Yes, our D wasn't great last year, but that is almost absurd. And for them to be extremely pedestrian ALL YEAR on offense and suddenly figure it out against the 2 Top 10 teams on their schedule at the end of the year is more than enough coincidence for me to believe it.
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I'll be honest that never made any sense to me either. I can see a team be fired up at home - but something was always amiss with the 9 for 10 scoring. I know most attributed it to the locker room but you don't have a melt down like that when you are still in contention of the playoffs.
 
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#199
#199
volfan102455 said:
I'll be honest that never made any sense to me either. I can see a team be fired up at home - but something was always amiss with the 9 for 10 scoring. I know most attributed it the locker room but you don't have a melt down like that when you are still in contention of the playoffs.
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Exactly. I just went back and counted, and SC had 22 plays of 10 or more yards. I don't know what the norm is, but I'm betting that is WAY over it.

Edit: I just looked at their SCSt game that they won 50-10 and they only had 11 plays of 10 or more yards.
 
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#200
#200
The question in my mind right now, is if this is true and Michigan wins out, will the NCAA let them participate in the playoffs with this out there?

It needs to be cleared up quickly. If Michigan has anything to dispute this, they need to put it out there and it can't be the "coach didn't know excuse". That is saying .. yes it is true but forgive us because our head coach didn't know.

I feel for the players - but when I look at the OSU clip, it is like the players knew too.
 
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