Michigan spied on Vols last year

#202
#202
Alright, at first I was skeptical and thought this was unlikely and some people were just wanting to have an excuse for losing. But the more I read & see, there's a lot of stuff that leads me to believe this is actually very plausible.

Still think the Jeremy Banks incident was a distraction that hurt us, but if we were missing one of our leaders on defense & they knew our defensive signals? Yeah, that's a pretty tough hill to overcome.

This may have been mentioned already, but just looking at our schedule last season, the most points our defense had given up prior to the SCar game was 49 to Alabama, who had a few soon-to-be NFL draft picks, including 1st rounders Young & Gibbs. The most points SCar had scored against a Power 5 team before playing us was 30 against A&M & 38 against Vandy. They only scored 6 points against Florida the week before they played us. They then go on to score 63 points against us & 31 against Clemson.

I know anything is possible & players/teams can catch fire and pull off an upset in college football, but SCar did it in back-to-back weeks after looking like absolute garbage up to that point. They then went on to get beat by Notre Dame in a bowl game.
 
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#203
#203
dobre_shunka said:
So if I go to a bank with a gun instead of an ATM card and leave with a crapload of cash, can I argue I did something legal (withdraw cash) in an illegal way (armed robbery) and everything will be cool?
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No that doesn't make any sense. In my analogy the cash (stealing signs) is 100% your money and your right to have it. There's no need to use a gun. Remember, stealing signs isn't the problem. It's HOW they were stolen which makes no sense to try to enforce.

If you showed up to a bank with a gun to withdraw money from your own account people would call you the dumbest criminal ever lol you can have your money if you get it from an ATM but we have this dumb rule that says you can't withdraw your money from a bank. Has to be from an ATM or it's not legally your money! Lol makes no sense this rule.
 
#205
#205
UTFranklinVol said:
Again, I stand by my notion that this is all hogwash and his increase in winning is due just to this then? Nah. I believe teams do scouting all the time. It's no matter really we don't have a say either way.
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You are WAY off here. Michigan in-person scouted which is illegal. Whether or not you agree it should be illegal, it is. They then digitally recorded the signals from the coaches which is also illegal. Then they had unlimited time to do codebreaking in order to identify what each team was calling onto the field which breaks the game of football (hence why the other two are illegal).

What you keep insinuating is that's no different than watching game film and then trying to steal signs on a Saturday. It is VERY different than that. If during the course of a game, your sideline is able to break the playcalling code of the other team, that is completely fine. However, if you illegally scout, illegally record, and then have unlimited time for codebreaking IN ADVANCE of the game, well you're a huge cheater. There's no other way to look at it.

This is ridiculously similar to what the Red Sox got caught doing in MLB. They were also punished because cheating is bad.
 
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#206
#206
I’m not educated enough to understand all of the rules and the real impact this actually has on the outcome of a game, but if it could end up in resulting in punishment for Michigan or South Carolina I’m in favor of prosecutions.
 
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#207
#207
Probably_in_Class said:
You are WAY off here. Michigan in-person scouted which is illegal. Whether or not you agree it should be illegal, it is. They then digitally recorded the signals from the coaches which is also illegal. Then they had unlimited time to do codebreaking in order to identify what each team was calling onto the field which breaks the game of football (hence why the other two are illegal).

What you keep insinuating is that's no different than watching game film and then trying to steal signs on a Saturday. It is VERY different than that. If during the course of a game, your sideline is able to break the playcalling code of the other team, that is completely fine. However, if you illegally scout, illegally record, and then have unlimited time for codebreaking IN ADVANCE of the game, well you're a huge cheater. There's no other way to look at it.

This is ridiculously similar to what the Red Sox got caught doing in MLB. They were also punished because cheating is bad.
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Lol so you're saying if I am good enough to steal your signs in real time then I deserve to steal them but I can't do it in advance. That's like saying if a hacker is good enough to guess your password then it's legal for him to take all your money but if he takes a photo of your password you left on your desk then it's illegal. Nope try again. it makes no sense. Either stealing signs is illegal or it's not illegal. Period. How you steal them should not be the issue. I completely disagree. If you want to make sign stealing illegal then be my guest, but you can't say stealing signs is cheating in one case and not cheating in another case.
 
#208
#208
volfan102455 said:
The question in my mind right now, is if this is true and Michigan wins out, will the NCAA let them participate in the playoffs with this out there?

It needs to be cleared up quickly. If Michigan has anything to dispute this, they need to put it out there and it can't be the "coach didn't know excuse". That is saying .. yes it is true but forgive us because our head coach didn't know.

I feel for the players - but when I look at the OSU clip, it is like the players knew too.
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OSU clip?
 
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#209
#209
Probably_in_Class said:
You are WAY off here. Michigan in-person scouted which is illegal. Whether or not you agree it should be illegal, it is. They then digitally recorded the signals from the coaches which is also illegal. Then they had unlimited time to do codebreaking in order to identify what each team was calling onto the field which breaks the game of football (hence why the other two are illegal).
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In person scouting is only illegal because of an outdated rule meant to save on travel costs, not prevent sign stealing and to my knowledge digitally recording coaches on the sidelines is not illegal.
 
#210
#210
UTFranklinVol said:
In person scouting is only illegal because of an outdated rule meant to save on travel costs, not prevent sign stealing and to my knowledge digitally recording coaches on the sidelines is not illegal.
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Your knowledge is lacking

"NCAA rules do not directly ban the stealing of signs. There are rules against using electronic equipment to record an opponent's signals,"

Investigation of Michigan for sign-stealing stems from NCAA rules made to curb financial advantages

Or is that rule also "outdated" and inspite of still being in the rulebook, UM isn't required to follow it just like the rule on in-person scouting?
 
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#211
#211
dobre_shunka said:
Your knowledge is lacking

"NCAA rules do not directly ban the stealing of signs. There are rules against using electronic equipment to record an opponent's signals,"

Investigation of Michigan for sign-stealing stems from NCAA rules made to curb financial advantages

Or is that rule also "outdated" and inspite of still being in the rulebook, UM isn't required to follow it just like the rule on in-person scouting?
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I was unaware of that rule but my original commentary still stands and I stand by it
 
#212
#212
UTFranklinVol said:
Lol so you're saying if I am good enough to steal your signs in real time then I deserve to steal them but I can't do it in advance. That's like saying if a hacker is good enough to guess your password then it's legal for him to take all your money but if he takes a photo of your password you left on your desk then it's illegal. Nope try again. it makes no sense. Either stealing signs is illegal or it's not illegal. Period. How you steal them should not be the issue. I completely disagree. If you want to make sign stealing illegal then be my guest, but you can't say stealing signs is cheating in one case and not cheating in another case.
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Yes. That is exactly what I'm saying. That is also what the NCAA rules state. It is also what the NCAA is saying. It is what every single coach who has been interviewed (including Harbaugh) is saying. It is also what MLB says. It's what the Red Sox admitted after everyone on the planet accused them of cheating. It is what every person in this thread apart from you is saying. It is what any logical person who enjoys competition would say.

You are absolutely entitled to your opinion, but on this one, you're in a minority of one.
 
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#215
#215
TnVols16 said:
OSU clip?
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I'll have to go find it. It was on twitter and showed the assistant who did all this standing next to Harbough looking across the sidelines on I believe the first play - and he plus the entire team reacted to alert the defense it was going to be a pass play.

Never mind - I see it was just posted. The clip is very telling.
 
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#217
#217
Michigan fans are twisting this to make it not be "illegal" with the excuse everyone does this.

Ignoring that for a minute, if one really believes this is acceptable then each team should just trade signs / signals before the game starts - better yet, the offense and defense should share what plays they are going to run before every play so both can adjust.
 
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#220
#220
Dadof2Vols said:
It was insurance in case they lost to THE OHIO STATE….
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If true that is what it was - the attempt to manipulate the CFP selections by assisting another team. In my opinion, that would be the kicker if true.

Edited to add: This is what I believe the NCAA needs to get in front of and determine if this is speculation or truth. If true, they need to come down hard with the punishment on this. If they don't, teams that can afford to do so, will start to assist other teams in any way possible.
 
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#221
#221
volfan102455 said:
Michigan fans are twisting this to make it not be "illegal" with the excuse everyone does this.

Ignoring that for a minute, if one really believes this is acceptable then each team should just trade signs / signals before the game starts - better yet, the offense and defense should share what plays they are going to run before every play so both can adjust.
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Yeah I don’t understand this blase attitude as if this isn’t serious cheating.

Yeah, you can get a good guess on some plays in games, may even be able to figure out some actual signs in the game too.

But imagine having every single sign with knowledge of the exact play that will follow. Then being able to craft plays to counter those plays weeks in advance. It’s akin to you having the other teams playbook without their knowledge
 
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#222
#222
UTFranklinVol said:
I don't like Michigan for sure but I am not letting that blind me from seeing how foolish all this hubbub is. The NCAA is using a rule that wasn't designed to prevent cheating to make it look like Michigan was somehow doing something other schools dont do all the time (steal signs, steal playbooks, bug the opposing locker room etc). The notion that this is all about Michigan being a bunch of dirty cheaters is all way way overblown due mostly to the NCAA trying to remain relevant.
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However, doing it in person and recording all signals for the whole games gives you enough data to figure out the signals from the first play of the game.

Doing it in game or snippets of tape, you might not figure it out until midway to end of game.

In person recording obviously helped them if you look at pre 2021 record.
 
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#224
#224
UTFranklinVol said:
Lol so you're saying if I am good enough to steal your signs in real time then I deserve to steal them but I can't do it in advance. That's like saying if a hacker is good enough to guess your password then it's legal for him to take all your money but if he takes a photo of your password you left on your desk then it's illegal. Nope try again. it makes no sense. Either stealing signs is illegal or it's not illegal. Period. How you steal them should not be the issue. I completely disagree. If you want to make sign stealing illegal then be my guest, but you can't say stealing signs is cheating in one case and not cheating in another case.
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You must be a Houston Astros fan.
 
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#225
#225
247sports.com

Rattler delivers jaw-dropping performance in thumping of Tennessee

It sometimes happens in sports. It’s most noticeable in basketball, sometimes prevalent in baseball, but it was sure on display on Saturday night at Williams-Brice Stadium.
247sports.com 247sports.com


“That was the best I’ve ever felt in a game,” Rattler said. “We felt truly unstoppable."

Article talks about how nearly every pass he threw was perfect etc etc.

Hmmm...
 
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