Minneapolis wants to disband police

#303
#303
VolStrom said:
Yeah, I didn't take a job so I could sing kumbaya and have cookouts with residents of crappy neighborhoods. Maybe some places need that but I don't want that in my neighborhood and I wouldn't want to have to do that for a job. It would probably cut back on applicants to be police officers by about 95% though.
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Not everyone is cut out for genuine service to the public.
 
#304
#304
Ten_Titans said:
What that article conveniently leaves out is that the new police department actually ended up with about 100 additional police in total, and about 100 more since then. A far cry from what is being proposed in Minneapolis. A doubled police force... And crime went down by half. Maybe there is a linear relationship there...

Nah, it was the home visits and barbeques.

I'm not an expert in the police budget of Minneapolis. Maybe there is a ton of corruption and wasted spending such as the case in Camden.

I do know it is laughable to suggest moving that money into "social programs" is going to result in less wasted spending. I've got a running tally here that says social programs are about... 0 for 1,237,893 in helping communities long term.

They seem to really help the people that work inside them, though.
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Why does it have to be binary? It can be a combination of more officers, better training, better leadership, better community relationships, etc.
 
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#305
#305
Ten_Titans said:
How many cases of police brutality are evidence of systemic corruption in the PD? I propose it is more than two in four years.

It's super easy to find problems when you don't ever actually think about whether your solution is going to **** everything up worse than it is now. Like hitting every bug on the wall with a sledgehammer.
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What in God's name are you blathering about? I mentioned the 2 that made national news. You'd have to be a complete buffoon to think that's all there is.
 
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#306
#306
McDad said:
Why does it have to be binary? It can be a combination of more officers, better training, better leadership, better community relationships, etc.
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I don't know. You are asking the wrong guy I guess.

The activists and the members of the city counsel in Minneapolis want less officers. You can probably stop there and try to figure out why that is before moving on to the other stuff.

I'm all for better everything. That isn't a policy though, that's just a list you give to Santa. I don't think the demand to be told what is wrong specifically now, and how the solutions are going to be better and not worse is an unreasonable demand.

If I sound cynical it's because I've watched the government suck at fixing stuff my entire life, and now all the sudden we are talking about this stuff like the problems and solutions are obvious. There's literally one thing in the entire government leftists would actually approve of defunding and it is the thing at least 85% of Americans do not want to defund. What are we even talking about here lol.
 
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#307
#307
n_huffhines said:
What in God's name are you blathering about? I mentioned the 2 that made national news. You'd have to be a complete buffoon to think that's all there is.
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Really? We've talked about George Floyd for two weeks straight and 9 unarmed black men were killed by police all of last year.

What world do you live in where headlines have to be proportional to the problem? You are giving the media more credit than they would even give themselves, and that is saying something.

If black lives were really the main topic and headlines were proportional to the problem, the media would literally never get a free breath to talk about anything other than black on black homicide and abortion of black babies.
 
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#308
#308
Ten_Titans said:
What that article conveniently leaves out is that the new police department actually ended up with about 100 additional police in total, and about 100 more since then. A far cry from what is being proposed in Minneapolis. A doubled police force... And crime went down by half. Maybe there is a linear relationship there...

Nah, it was the home visits and barbeques.

I'm not an expert in the police budget of Minneapolis. Maybe there is a ton of corruption and wasted spending such as the case in Camden.

I do know it is laughable to suggest moving that money into "social programs" is going to result in less wasted spending. I've got a running tally here that says social programs are about... 0 for 1,237,893 in helping communities long term.

They seem to really help the people that work inside them, though.
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I did hear interesting comments about how NYC was cleaned up. Rather than just running down rapists and murderers they started cracking down on everything, even the little things. The violent crime rates dropped drastically because they found that when they picked someone up for jumping a turnstile or whatever that it ended up reducing more serious crimes. They deduced that the same people that were doing the little crimes were the same ones that would go on to the more serious crimes but they couldn’t since they were already in custody. I don’t know about the accuracy of that or the stats on it that’s what was said. Police presence increased, crime decreased. Makes sense to me.
 
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#309
#309
Ten_Titans said:
I don't know. You are asking the wrong guy I guess.

The activists and the members of the city counsel in Minneapolis want less officers. You can probably stop there and try to figure out why that is before moving on to the other stuff.

I'm all for better everything. That isn't a policy though, that's just a list you give to Santa. I don't think the demand to be told what is wrong specifically now, and how the solutions are going to be better and not worse is an unreasonable demand.

If I sound cynical it's because I've watched the government suck at fixing stuff my entire life, and now all the sudden we are talking about this stuff like the problems and solutions are obvious. There's literally one thing in the entire government leftists would actually approve of defunding and it is the thing at least 85% of Americans do not want to defund. What are we even talking about here lol.
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Folks like you and I are caught between a rock of cynicism and a hard place of cynicism. The [Minneapolis} government created the police force we now today. Obviously there are problems. The [MInneapolis] government will now attempt to fix a problem they created. I doubt whether the council's wish list comes to fruition. But if the wish list comes to pass and it works? Great. Good on you, Minneapolis. If it doesn't, they will try again.
 
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#310
#310
McDad said:
Folks like you and I are caught between a rock of cynicism and a hard place of cynicism. The [Minneapolis} government created the police force we now today. Obviously there are problems. The [MInneapolis] government will now attempt to fix a problem they created. I doubt whether the council's wish list comes to fruition. But if the wish list comes to pass and it works? Great. Good on you, Minneapolis. If it doesn't, they will try again.
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Sure. I don't live there. As stupid as it is they can do whatever they want.

Breaking crap is way easier than fixing it. Because of that, there is an actual procedure to fixing problems. And skipping the "identify the problem" part pretty much means you are guaranteed to fail. There seems to be a lot of looking inward at liberal guilt and less looking outward at statistics, policies, and leadership. But yeah. Whatever. Bold strategy. We'll see if it pays off.
 
#311
#311
GVF said:
OK, here's a thing. My nephew has had lifelong addiction problems since he was a teen. Had hand surgery. Given those heavy duty pain relievers. Parents weren't warned of dangers of these opioids. He filled the void with heroin. Been in and out of jail atleast 4 times now. Maybe five. The Griffin, GA police dept is fairly corrupt. Always has been. They target my nephew, by no stretch of the imagination. His last time in Griffin, and his dad told him to stay out, he was stopped driving a friends car. They tried to pin some other erroneous charges on him, that were ultimately defeated to the tune of some very high legal fees. He served out his time in county lockup for the drug possession. everything else was trumped up and proven false. He absolutely cannot pass through Griffin without being targeted and stopped and/or arrested just to see if they can get something on him. He's done time in Cobb County as well and a half way house in Cochran. If it weren't for his being white, he'd be up s*** creek.

He's been clean for a while, and his attitude toward his problem has changed, so maybe he can keep it up. Thing about heroine, you can physically tell if someone is lying about being clean or being junked up.
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You can tell on the pills too. I hope your nephew is able to kick it. Not many can. Whether it be an addict or a trucker driving rough looking equipment, cops definitely will target what they see as low hanging fruit.
 
#312
#312
Ten_Titans said:
Sure. I don't live there. As stupid as it is they can do whatever they want.

Breaking crap is way easier than fixing it. Because of that, there is an actual procedure to fixing problems. And skipping the "identify the problem" part pretty much means you are guaranteed to fail. There seems to be a lot of looking inward at liberal guilt and less looking outward at statistics, policies, and leadership. But yeah. Whatever. Bold strategy. We'll see if it pays off.
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Look, I'm with you. I don't live there. No skin in the game. I have several friends who live in and around the area. I hope nothing worsens for them.

I am in a let's test out your ideas, Minneapolis, frame of mind. I believe the reactionary council is spouting off about a lot of stuff. Once they begin to study and put some framework together, I don't think it will be pixies riding on unicorns spreading their magic fairy dust of harmony.
 
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#313
#313
McDad said:
Look, I'm with you. I don't live there. No skin in the game. I have several friends who live in and around the area. I hope nothing worsens for them.

I am in a let's test out your ideas, Minneapolis, frame of mind. I believe the reactionary council is spouting off about a lot of stuff. Once they begin to study and put some framework together, I don't think it will be pixies riding on unicorns spreading their magic fairy dust of harmony.
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Agree with all of this.

My only contention is that I know how this movie ends. When everything AT BEST stays the same, these same people will come out and say the systemic racism was worse than they thought, and what they actually need to do is go with some even dumber ideas.

It's like a dial and a gauge that are completely unrelated. I don't see any scenario where they say "Well all these ideas didn't work, I guess systemic racism and mass corruption aren't actually what's causing all of our problems here."
 
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#314
#314
Ten_Titans said:
Really? We've talked about George Floyd for two weeks straight and 9 unarmed black men were killed by police all of last year.

What world do you live in where headlines have to be proportional to the problem? You are giving the media more credit than they would even give themselves, and that is saying something.

If black lives were really the main topic and headlines were proportional to the problem, the media would literally never get a free breath to talk about anything other than black on black homicide and abortion of black babies.
Click to expand...

I have no idea what you're talking about with the media and narratives and all that. You're having a different conversation than I am. I am talking about all brutality and overpolicing issues that justify Minneapolis in overhauling law enforcement. You're limiting the conversation to how many times they've killed unarmed black men, for some reason. Here is the context. I didn't even factor in race:

n_huffhines said:
Other incidents of what? Brutality? Yeah, they have a reputation for it. Philando Castille immediately comes to mind. That was the month before anthem protests started.
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#315
#315
hUTch2002 said:
I did hear interesting comments about how NYC was cleaned up. Rather than just running down rapists and murderers they started cracking down on everything, even the little things. The violent crime rates dropped drastically because they found that when they picked someone up for jumping a turnstile or whatever that it ended up reducing more serious crimes. They deduced that the same people that were doing the little crimes were the same ones that would go on to the more serious crimes but they couldn’t since they were already in custody. I don’t know about the accuracy of that or the stats on it that’s what was said. Police presence increased, crime decreased. Makes sense to me.
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Broken windows theory. If you let drug addicts shoot up in street, prostitutes and homeless roam etc, you encourage the bigger crimes and your streets look third world like SF
 
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#316
#316
Ten_Titans said:
Agree with all of this.

My only contention is that I know how this movie ends. When everything AT BEST stays the same, these same people will come out and say the systemic racism was worse than they thought, and what they actually need to do is go with some even dumber ideas.

It's like a dial and a gauge that are completely unrelated. I don't see any scenario where they say "Well all these ideas didn't work, I guess systemic racism and mass corruption aren't actually what's causing all of our problems here."
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Certainly is a possibility. Given government's proclivity for making things less efficient and less productive, it might even be the most likely outcome. But there is always a chance, like Camden, the blind squirrel finds the acorn.
 
#317
#317
n_huffhines said:
I have no idea what you're talking about with the media and narratives and all that. You're having a different conversation than I am. I am talking about all brutality and overpolicing issues that justify Minneapolis in overhauling law enforcement. You're limiting the conversation to how many times they've killed unarmed black men, for some reason. Here is the context. I didn't even factor in race:
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I'm saying two headlines about police brutality is evidence of two cases of police brutality. The idea that you could say there wouldn't be two headlines without a major underlying problem goes against everything we've seen in the media for like the last 20 years.

I used the unarmed black men being murdered narrative just as an example. That wasn't clear on my part.
 
#318
#318
Ten_Titans said:
I'm saying two headlines about police brutality is evidence of two cases of police brutality. The idea that you could say there wouldn't be two headlines without a major underlying problem goes against everything we've seen in the media for like the last 20 years.

I used the unarmed black men being murdered narrative just as an example. That wasn't clear on my part.
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I didn't say that or allude to that. Jesucristo, you're a waste of time. All I said was that they have a reputation and I named another example. I didn't even say the reputation is earned. Do what you will with that information, but don't put non-sequitur arguments in my mouth.
 
#320
#320
rjd970 said:
What qualifies as a religion? There is a whole can worms here. We could literally be talking about 100s beliefs here.

Better to just leave it to home life and parents to handle the faith part IMO.
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And people wonder why things are so bad. Just keep pushing God out.
 
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