Minnesota football players boycott their bowl game in protest of suspension of 10 tea

#76
#76
LSU-SIU said:
Hmm. Isn't there another perspective to this.... that maybe the school is the bully and taken advantage? Possibly? Sounds like a labor dispute to me.
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How so ? Those players got a free ride to play football there -- how many of them could afford that school if not for the scholarship ?
 
#77
#77
UTwild82 said:
True. 2 words

Duke lacrosse.
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Exactly. Complete BS but devastated the team and program. Probably still have a stigma from it from those less informed who still think it's true.

But then, on the flipside.. two more words: Vanderbilt football

Point is, that the Vandy case took about 3 years to be fully adjudicated. What if Vandy had let the players in question stay on the team until "due process" worked itself out?

This is about as gray as it gets. There's no right or wrong answer. There is a fear among colleges that players accused ARE guilty and they want them immediately sidelined, so that if anything happens from the time of the accusation they can reduce their liability.

Are we a country that still believes in "innocent until proven guilty?" I'd like to think so. In the Vandy case each suspect was given a trial and no sentence was levied until the verdict was announced. So, by that definition they were innocent until proven guilty. However, they were denied their opportunity of playing college football before their guilt was determined. In this case it seems Vanderbilt made the right decisions. For the Duke lacrosse team it was the exact opposite.
 
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#78
#78
508mikey said:
How so ? Those players got a free ride to play football there -- how many of them could afford that school if not for the scholarship ?
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This goes back to all the lawsuits that are currently working their way up and around the last few years. You mean the college gets a free ride which is dictated out of a non-competitive anti-trust system. Certainly the schools, conferences and ncaa profit margin goes down drastically if they have to pay fair market value for their labor. Its nice to be King. As far as this thing, its really just a labor dispute... nothing stopping the players from the whole conference or the whole nation to not jump in. I think I mentioned this a few years ago as a solution instead of the slow process of litigation to work it way.

This is a labor dispute... the players are saying we want due process for any player suspended or kicked off the team. (at least that is my take) Unless the players bail them out the school is somewhat in a corner.

This is what happens when you masquerade employees as students, and the employee flip the script. Minnesota has nobody to blame but themselves. These so called student athletes owe no legal obligation to show up or to perform. Who's fault is that? The schools want their cake and eat it too.

I'm going to crack up one day.... two teams show up at the NC game... they start the game at the kickoff and both teams rush to the middle of the battlefield and greet either other with hugs and handshakes.... Braveheart style.

I can't say I understand the players which were involved in some of this other stuff, but as far as the full team... I think they are just sticking up for themselves... for that they should be applauded. imo
 
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#79
#79
volfanbill said:
I'll get back to you when you finally comprehend what I typed, thanks.
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Can't wait... see below. Again, feel free to quote those posters who overreacted and accused the players of already being guilty. And then, perhaps, you can also explain how I failed to comprehend what you posted.

volfanbill said:
the overreaction of people here is ridiculous.
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volfanbill said:
Take away the fact the player(s) wear Tennessee orange and suddenly everyone is guilty until proven innocent.
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(Note: you also said something about the faux outrage of TN fans and how they are assuming these players are guilty when they didn't do the same thing regarding AJ... essentially calling a number of posters hypocrites.)

volfanbill said:
It disgusts me that so many are so quick to find the football players guilty.
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#80
#80
LSU-SIU said:
This goes back to all the lawsuits that are currently working their way up and around the last few years. You mean the college gets a free ride which is dictated out of a non-competitive anti-trust system. Certainly the schools, conferences and ncaa profit margin goes down drastically if they have to pay fair market value for their labor. Its nice to be King. As far as this thing, its really just a labor dispute... nothing stopping the players from the whole conference or the whole nation to not jump in. I think I mentioned this a few years ago as a solution instead of the slow process of litigation to work it way.

This is a labor dispute... the players are saying we want due process for any player suspended or kicked off the team. (at least that is my take) Unless the players bail them out the school is somewhat in a corner.

This is what happens when you masquerade employees as students, and the employee flip the script. Minnesota has nobody to blame but themselves. These so called student athletes owe no legal obligation to show up or to perform. Who's fault is that? The schools want their cake and eat it too.

I'm going to crack up one day.... two teams show up at the NC game... they start the game at the kickoff and both teams rush to the middle of the battlefield and greet either other with hugs and handshakes.... Braveheart style.

I can't say I understand the players which were involved in some of this other stuff, but as far as the full team... I think they are just sticking up for themselves... for that they should be applauded. imo
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Then their scholarships should be yanked and they can pay their way like regular students do ---- you describe them as 'employees' ? Well employees can be replaced by someone else -- happens all the time
 
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#81
#81
508mikey said:
Then their scholarships should be yanked and they can pay their way like regular students do ---- you describe them as 'employees' ? Well employees can be replaced by someone else -- happens all the time
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Yes, as I mentioned earlier they don't have to renew the scholarships past this year, scholarships are generally annually or just kill their football program. The problem with that of course is the football program is a business venture and not a school activity for the big schools.

It will be interesting to see if anyone caves. Generally, I see nothing legally or morally wrong with what the players are doing or suggesting.
 
#82
#82
One has to only read the chronology of events associated with this to know that the university is handling this the only way they can. If they cave this will end up being another Baylor situation where a university and coaches looked the other way. The police have already looked the other way.
 
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#84
#84
508mikey said:
Then their scholarships should be yanked and they can pay their way like regular students do ---- you describe them as 'employees' ? Well employees can be replaced by someone else -- happens all the time
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Hahaha, its just that simple, is it? They'd never get another recruit on that campus again if they start yanking scholarships like Trump spouting "You're fired!" on some idiot reality TV show. Those players are very much employees. Very specialized, highly skilled employees that are, in fact, not easily replaced. And if word gets around that you choose to ignore their right to due process, you might as well kill your multi-million dollar bell cow and start cutting university funds left and right. Football is one of two (I believe its only two, with men's basketball) revenue and profit generating collegiate sports. Those two sports often support entire athletic departments, which offer scholarships to hundreds of athletes and jobs to dozens of staff and support. It's not nearly as simple as replacing them, no matter how you look at it.
 
#85
#85
Wolfeman_Vol said:
Hahaha, its just that simple, is it? They'd never get another recruit on that campus again if they start yanking scholarships like Trump spouting "You're fired!" on some idiot reality TV show. Those players are very much employees. Very specialized, highly skilled employees that are, in fact, not easily replaced. And if word gets around that you choose to ignore their right to due process, you might as well kill your multi-million dollar bell cow and start cutting university funds left and right. Football is one of two (I believe its only two, with men's basketball) revenue and profit generating collegiate sports. Those two sports often support entire athletic departments, which offer scholarships to hundreds of athletes and jobs to dozens of staff and support. It's not nearly as simple as replacing them, no matter how you look at it.
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Nothing in this fiasco is simple --- everyone is screwed imo
 
#86
#86
Until schools take the action that Mizzou should have enacted... irrevocable removal of scholarships...this will continue to escalate. These students have the right to protest, and the same right to face the consequences of not meeting the requirements of that free education. Protest AND go to practice and play...or protest and inquire about student loans.
 
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#87
#87
Wolfeman_Vol said:
Hahaha, its just that simple, is it? They'd never get another recruit on that campus again if they start yanking scholarships like Trump spouting "You're fired!" on some idiot reality TV show. Those players are very much employees. Very specialized, highly skilled employees that are, in fact, not easily replaced. And if word gets around that you choose to ignore their right to due process, you might as well kill your multi-million dollar bell cow and start cutting university funds left and right. Football is one of two (I believe its only two, with men's basketball) revenue and profit generating collegiate sports. Those two sports often support entire athletic departments, which offer scholarships to hundreds of athletes and jobs to dozens of staff and support. It's not nearly as simple as replacing them, no matter how you look at it.
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You'd have to settle for lesser skilled and experienced players initially. But they'd be fully aware of what is required. This group already damaged their university financially. More power to them. They should be aware of potential fallout when they cost their EMPLOYER money. Most people get FIRED. Grown up time!
 
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#88
#88
One of the accused players, Carlton Djam, provided videos of the gangbang to prove he and his teammates are innocent of the false accusations.

The police investigator, Matthew Wente, watched the gangbang videos and wrote that the woman "appears lucid, somewhat playful, and fully conscious. She does not appear to be objecting to anything. The sexual contact appears entirely consensual. At no time does she indicate that she's in distress or that the contact is unwelcome or nonconsensual."

Those guys are no more guilty of an assault than Ron Jeremy in his videos.

If the players are getting punished, then the woman in the sex video, gladly letting the players run a train on her, should be punished as well since it took at least a half dozen to tango, one of them being the woman.

I think it's pretty cool that the rest of the team is willing to sacrifice a vacation on the sunny beaches of San Diego and instead stay in frigid Minnesota in order to stand up for their teammates who were proven innocent by video evidence.
 
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#89
#89
KSTP website has both the police and EOAA reports. I read them last night.

Lots of issues and standards in play here. Probable Cause -vs- Title IX standards. Rules of Evidence-vs- political correctness. The "Aunt Emma" test -vs- "liquored up college kids at a 1 am party; what did you expect to happen?" Ad nauseum.

Football team has planted their flag on Probable Cause. University officials are occupying "Title IX Hill". It's already a sh*tshow, and likely won't get any better as the hours tick away before a decision...some decision...must be made.

I don't have a dog in this fight, and I don't care if Minnesota does or doesn't play in a bowl game. But I will be watching to see how this plays out.

As will every other academic institution subject to Title IX.

Go Vols.
 
#90
#90
JuicyBrucey said:
One of the accused players, Carlton Djam, provided videos of the gangbang to prove he and his teammates are innocent of the false accusations.
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The entire incident was not filmed. Two clips 8 seconds and 92 seconds out of an incident that supposedly lasted 90 minutes. It seems that police were not really interested in what happened in the other 88 minutes or so.
 
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#91
#91
volfan102455 said:
The entire incident was not filmed. Two clips 8 seconds and 92 seconds out of an incident that supposedly lasted 90 minutes. It seems that police were not really interested in what happened in the other 88 minutes or so.
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The police have to go where the evidence takes them. In addition to the videos (which as you stated only show a small portion of the entire incident), they interviewed every individual they could establish was involved, or present. I would encourage you to read the report, if you have not already done so. Although heavily redacted, the report paints a picture of a thorough, impartial investigation.

I am not taking the side of either the alleged victim, or the accused. In whole or in part. But the criminal justice system operates under the principle of "innocent until proven guilty".....a burden which Title IX standards are not encumbered with.

Just as there should never be another "Baylor", there should also never be another "Duke".

Go Vols.
 
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#92
#92
Title IX has been turned on its head by the Obama DOJ, enforcing new constructs that are far outside the framers' original intent. It puts undue decision-making burden on tribunals, rather than our legal system. Ask anyone in Higher Ed. Administration. It's hell for the accuser, accused, and administration.


VolunteerHillbilly said:
So you support having panels of unelected, untrained persons deciding these matters behind closed doors without giving the accused due process? Best of luck if anyone ever accuses you of something you didn't do.
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#93
#93
McCat said:
Title IX has been turned on its head by the Obama DOJ, enforcing new constructs that are far outside the framers' original intent. It puts undue decision-making burden on tribunals, rather than our legal system. Ask anyone in Higher Ed. Administration. It's hell for the accuser, accused, and administration.
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I am in complete agreement with you.
 
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#94
#94
volfan102455 said:
The entire incident was not filmed. Two clips 8 seconds and 92 seconds out of an incident that supposedly lasted 90 minutes. It seems that police were not really interested in what happened in the other 88 minutes or so.
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The most controversial part of the whole gangbang was filmed...her having consensual sex with an underage football recruit.
 
#95
#95
GreyWolf1129 said:
The police have to go where the evidence takes them. In addition to the videos (which as you stated only show a small portion of the entire incident), they interviewed every individual they could establish was involved, or present. I would encourage you to read the report, if you have not already done so. Although heavily redacted, the report paints a picture of a thorough, impartial investigation.

I am not taking the side of either the alleged victim, or the accused. In whole or in part. But the criminal justice system operates under the principle of "innocent until proven guilty".....a burden which Title IX standards are not encumbered with.

Just as there should never be another "Baylor", there should also never be another "Duke".

Go Vols.
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This. I have a daughter, wife, sisters, etc. Also a very conservative Christian in my beliefs so morally I frown upon all of this....however:

These guys have videos, plural, of this girl willingly and ALERT,LUCID while willingly performing sex acts with multiple players...if a girl goes into a bedroom mentally aware and willingly has sex with 4 or 5 guys who formed a line..her words..then decides somewhere along the way that there were too many cars on this train...allegedly..which the guys dispute...who is really at fault? Any guy that forces himself on a woman after the word "no" is absolutely a rapist and should be caged..but there is zero proof that ever happened here.if a woman does something like this and immediately regrets acting like a whore, she shouldn't be able to ruin the lives of nearly a dozen young men because she made a big mistake. Of there was any evidence of rape I would certainly have a different take. To my understanding there is none.

I would add that it is pathetic for a college football player to have to do this with 10 friends in order to get laid. If these guys have half a personality they should be able to attract plenty of girls in the proper 1 on 1 relationship like normal guys do..they should also learn from examples like at vandy and not put themselves in compromising situations like this.
 
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#97
#97
tnburban said:
Exactly. Complete BS but devastated the team and program. Probably still have a stigma from it from those less informed who still think it's true.

But then, on the flipside.. two more words: Vanderbilt football

Point is, that the Vandy case took about 3 years to be fully adjudicated. What if Vandy had let the players in question stay on the team until "due process" worked itself out?

This is about as gray as it gets. There's no right or wrong answer. There is a fear among colleges that players accused ARE guilty and they want them immediately sidelined, so that if anything happens from the time of the accusation they can reduce their liability.

Are we a country that still believes in "innocent until proven guilty?" I'd like to think so. In the Vandy case each suspect was given a trial and no sentence was levied until the verdict was announced. So, by that definition they were innocent until proven guilty. However, they were denied their opportunity of playing college football before their guilt was determined. In this case it seems Vanderbilt made the right decisions. For the Duke lacrosse team it was the exact opposite.
Click to expand...

Very good point and very well written.
 
#98
#98
#100
#100
Team changed their tune overnight. For a team that has taken such a hard stand in support of their teammates to reverse course like this does not bode well for the "Minnesota 10" with regards to their future as MU football players.

It will play out over the next couple of months, and litigation is all but guaranteed. There's no way the Wallet Leeches will miss the opportunity to hit the deep pocket, or get their 15 minutes of fame.

Only question is how many ESPN segments this will eventually result in.

Go Vols.
 
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