Mormon Proxy Baptisms

#153
#153
mtt2d said:
I believe God is a living God and is in control of everything.
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In control of everything?

1) Does he orchestrate everything? Meaning, does he orchestrate everyone's life?

2) Do you have free will?

2a) If so, how do you define free will?

2b) If no, does that not make life and your God utterly absurd?
 
#154
#154
PKT_VOL said:
In control of everything?

1) Does he orchestrate everything? Meaning, does he orchestrate everyone's life?

2) Do you have free will?

2a) If so, how do you define free will?

2b) If no, does that not make life and your God utterly absurd?
Click to expand...

I don't know God's plan for anyone's life. But I believe God is in control of everything that is happening.

I don't think it's absurd to try to live like Christ everyday. That's what we are called to do.
 
#155
#155
mtt2d said:
I don't know God's plan for anyone's life. But I believe God is in control of everything that is happening.

I don't think it's absurd to try to live like Christ everyday. That's what we are called to do.
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I didn't say it was absurd to live by Christ everyday.

However, if you believe in complete predestination via an omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, and omnipresent God, then your life has absolutely no meaning whatsoever. It means that you are either saved or damned to hell billions of years ago. It means that your life has no meaning. Your relationships, your morals, your existence has no meaning.

Honestly, I don't believe you fully understand the concept of complete predestination.
 
#156
#156
mtt2d said:
I don't know God's plan for anyone's life. But I believe God is in control of everything that is happening.

I don't think it's absurd to try to live like Christ everyday. That's what we are called to do.
Click to expand...

You believe god is in control of people being murdered? of women being raped? of children being molested? of men being tortured? of children with leukemia? of mother's with breast cancer? of men who beat their wives? of terrorists blowing up innocents?

Your belief in God's role in the world is very different from mine.
 
#157
#157
RespectTradition said:
You believe god is in control of people being murdered? of women being raped? of children being molested? of men being tortured? of children with leukemia? of mother's with breast cancer? of men who beat their wives? of terrorists blowing up innocents?

Your belief in God's role in the world is very different from mine.
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Yep. Complete predestination exacerbates the problem of evil.
 
#158
#158
PKT_VOL said:
I didn't say it was absurd to live by Christ everyday.

However, if you believe in complete predestination via an omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, and omnipresent God, then your life has absolutely no meaning whatsoever. It means that you are either saved or damned to hell billions of years ago. It means that your life has no meaning. Your relationships, your morals, your existence has no meaning.

Honestly, I don't believe you fully understand the concept of complete predestination.
Click to expand...

I believe the apostles lives had meaning.

Romans 8:29 says we are predestined to be confirmed to the image of Christ. Who God chooses to be like Christ and who he does not is his will. God will draw whoever he chooses to Christ.

Some people are saved at a very young age, others at a very old age. Of course, non believers won't keep Christ's commandments but believers will.

I think you misunderstand me. I am not saying that a predestined elect child of God can deny Christ. All of the elect will find christ somehow, some way. God will make sure that all of his elect find Christ.
 
#159
#159
RespectTradition said:
You believe god is in control of people being murdered? of women being raped? of children being molested? of men being tortured? of children with leukemia? of mother's with breast cancer? of men who beat their wives? of terrorists blowing up innocents?

Your belief in God's role in the world is very different from mine.
Click to expand...

God took out his wrath on his only begotten son. I try not to question what he does or allows to happen.
 
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#160
#160
mtt2d said:
I believe the apostles lives had meaning.

Romans 8:29 says we are predestined to be confirmed to the image of Christ. Who God chooses to be like Christ and who he does not is his will. God will draw whoever he chooses to Christ.

Some people are saved at a very young age, others at a very old age. Of course, non believers won't keep Christ's commandments but believers will.

I think you misunderstand me. I am not saying that a predestined elect child of God can deny Christ. All of the elect will find christ somehow, some way. God will make sure that all of his elect find Christ.
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Do you have free will?
 
#161
#161
RespectTradition said:
You believe god is in control of people being murdered? of women being raped? of children being molested? of men being tortured? of children with leukemia? of mother's with breast cancer? of men who beat their wives? of terrorists blowing up innocents?

Your belief in God's role in the world is very different from mine.
Click to expand...

Why does God allow it to keep happening, then?
 
#166
#166
mtt2d said:
People are absolutely doing what they want and God allows it. Why? I don't know, other than to say he is in control of everything.
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Logical contradiction. You cannot have free will "because God allows it". If God allows and denies human action based on his will, then our interpretation of human free will is nothing more than an illusion.
 
#167
#167
PKT_VOL said:
Logical contradiction. You cannot have free will "because God allows it". If God allows and denies human action based on his will, then our interpretation of human free will is nothing more than an illusion.
Click to expand...

God judged Israel severly in the OT using his four judgements. Whether he caused it or allowed it, I don't know. But God was in control.
 
#169
#169
mtt2d said:
God took out his wrath on his only begotten son. I try not to question what he does or allows to happen.
Click to expand...

mtt2d said:
Why does God allow it to keep happening, then?
Click to expand...

mtt2d said:
People are absolutely doing what they want and God allows it. Why? I don't know, other than to say he is in control of everything.
Click to expand...

God did not take out his wrath on Jesus. A sacrifice of blood was required. Why? I don't know. It really doesn't matter. Blood was required, not because God was wrathful, but because it was just. Jesus volunteered to shed his blood.

You just said "I try not to question what he does or allows to happen." and then a couple posts later you said "Why does God allow it to keep happening, then?". hmmm He lets it happen because he gave us free will. That is a part of being created in his image. If God did not allow us to act as we choose, then we would just be robots and life would be utterly meaningless.

If God was in control, then there could be no sin. Sin is when people defy God's will. Consider the case of Saul. (1 Samuel 15:22-24) He rebelled against God. Then consider what Jesus said. (Matthew 12:24-26) If God caused Saul to rebel against God, then the whole house of cards would fall down.
 
#170
#170
God forsook Jesus because of yours and my sin. Jesus had to take god's punishment as a substitute for us. There's no way around that.

I can argue against free will with scripture all day. But Im not going to do that now.

I don't claim to know what every verse in the Bible means. I don't know exactly what Jesus is talking about in Matthew 12:24-27. After reading it though, it looks like he's talking about casting out devils. If I am right, we could discuss that for months.
 
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