MVP and ROTY

[Scotty's Flat Top]

It kind of does water it down, because he saw a lot of prevent D this year.

lol whatever you say Bro Rogan. You must have the Lions NFL ticket to know what type of defenses he faced "a lot". 8 of their 11 loses were by one possession. The other were by 13, 10, and the lone true blowout of 28 but even then he only had 121 yards (which is average for him). I don't know of a lot of defenses that play the prevent in one possession games. JMO.

 

[005]

lol whatever you say Bro Rogan. You must have the Lions NFL ticket to know what type of defenses he faced "a lot". 8 of their 11 loses were by one possession. The other were by 13, 10, and the lone true blowout of 28 but even then he only had 121 yards (which is average for him). I don't know of a lot of defenses that play the prevent in one possession games. JMO.

Besides chavis you mean

 

[n_huffhines]

lol whatever you say Bro Rogan. You must have the Lions NFL ticket to know what type of defenses he faced "a lot". 8 of their 11 loses were by one possession. The other were by 13, 10, and the lone true blowout of 28 but even then he only had 121 yards (which is average for him). I don't know of a lot of defenses that play the prevent in one possession games. JMO.

I actually did watch the Lions a lot. I have NFL ticket. Just because a game ends with a 1 possession score doesn't mean there wasn't a 14 point margin with 5 minutes left.

I didn't say that it negates his record, but it does "water it down" to some extent. If you can't admit that, then you are too close-minded about this.

 

[n_huffhines]

Matthew Stafford '12 Pass Attempts - 685
NFL Single Season Record for Pass Attempts - 691

How could anyone deny that playing from behind impacts Johnson's receiving totals?

 

[005]

it did. still a pretty awesome season.

 

[Scotty's Flat Top]

I actually did watch the Lions a lot. I have NFL ticket. Just because a game ends with a 1 possession score doesn't mean there wasn't a 14 point margin with 5 minutes left.

I didn't say that it negates his record, but it does "water it down" to some extent. If you can't admit that, then you are too close-minded about this.

I'd be willing to bet that less than 3% of his snaps were against prevent defense. And that is high estimate. Larry Fitzgerald has seen a lot of prevent (as have a lot of other big time receivers). I don't see him lighting up the stat sheet. I know he doesn't have a QB but it isn't like Stafford has been Joe Montana this year. Under that premise I guess AP's yards against dime packages on second and third and long should be noted as well. Or when Peyton throws on run defensive alignments. It is splitting hairs man. It is the NFL. Not much is given.

 

[n_huffhines]

it did. still a pretty awesome season.

Definitely. Many records are only records because they were set under circumstances favorable to making the record. The best example is the guy that has the most doubles in a single season. He just bounced 'em off the green monster, again and again. Bob Gipson and the ERA record? The mound was higher. Eric Dickerson played in that tight window where there were 16 games, but before the pass-happy era of football. etc.

 

[Scotty's Flat Top]

Matthew Stafford '12 Pass Attempts - 685
NFL Single Season Record for Pass Attempts - 691

How could anyone deny that playing from behind impacts Johnson's receiving totals?

Lol. If you would have said "playing from behind" opposed to facing a lot of "prevent defenses". I would have agreed. But playing from behind is totally different from playing prevent defense. Also, he is doing this against defenses that are geared solely to stop him. He is double and even triple teamed on most every pass attempt. He is the primary target and he still produces on a grand scale. Ain't nothing watered down about that. I guess AP carrying it over 20 times a game should be noted as well. Or Peyton slinging it 37 times a game.

 

[n_huffhines]

I'd be willing to bet that less than 3% of his snaps were against prevent defense. And that is high estimate. Larry Fitzgerald has seen a lot of prevent (as have a lot of other big time receivers). I don't see him lighting up the stat sheet. I know he doesn't have a QB but it isn't like Stafford has been Joe Montana this year. Under that premise I guess AP's yards against dime packages on second and third and long should be noted as well. Or when Peyton throws on run defensive alignments. It is splitting hairs man. It is the NFL. Not much is given.

He may not have seen that many prevent defenses. No way to know...my greater point is that you can rack up pass/receiving yards in losses:

In wins: 105 ypg
In losses: 134 ypg

I wish we could look at 4th quarter splits.

 

[n_huffhines]

Lol. If you would have said "playing from behind" opposed to facing a lot of "prevent defenses". I would have agreed. But playing from behind is totally different from playing prevent defense. Also, he is doing this against defenses that are geared solely to stop him. He is double and even triple teamed on most every pass attempt. He is the primary target and he still produces on a grand scale. Ain't nothing watered down about that. I guess AP carrying it over 20 times a game should be noted as well. Or Peyton slinging it 37 times a game.

The difference being the more carries, the harder it should be for AP to net such a high (6.0) YPC total. Johnson is # 8 in YPR, and AP is #2 in YPC (Spiller is #1 with half the carries). I think it's easier to key on a RB than on a WR.

I don't mean to be hard on Johnson, but I think AP clearly edges him, and they are more comparable with each other than they are with Manning.

It comes down to Manning vs the winner of AP vs CJ. JMO

 

[005]

The difference being the more carries, the harder it should be for AP to net such a high (6.0) YPC total. Johnson is # 8 in YPR, and AP is #2 in YPC (Spiller is #1 with half the carries).

vincent jackson leads in YPC and had 69 catches. Calvin has 117.

Others ahead of Calvin: 55, 49, 36, 46, 57, 46.

But okay.

 

[Ned Ray McWorkher]

Manning is MVP.
AP is OPOTY.
The should split the CPOTY.
Calvin Johnson had a nice statistical season and broke an old record. No awards for that.

 

[n_huffhines]

vincent jackson leads in YPC and had 69 catches. Calvin has 117.

Others ahead of Calvin: 55, 49, 36, 46, 57, 46.

But okay.

I saw all that. I included this statement hoping nobody would say, "but, but they have half as many catches, too":

I think it's easier to key on a RB than on a WR.

AP -314 carries, 6.0 YPC
Charles - 271 carries, 5.4 YPC
Lynch - 297 carries, 5.0 YPC

margin of 17% in YPC between AP and Lynch.

CJ - 117 receptions, 16.2 YPR
D Thomas - 87 receptions 15.1 YPR
R White - 87 receptions 15.0 YPR

margin of 8% in YPR between CJ and White.

Factor in AP has a nice number of TDs and Johnson does not, and I think we have a clear winner.

 

[Scotty's Flat Top]

For the record I don't think CJ should get the MVP this season. But he should be in the discussion. What Manning is doing this season has been done, what AP is doing has been done, what CJ is doing has never been done.. He has demolished the greatest WR ever's record. If the Lions were 11-4 instread of 4-11 he would be MVP. But as is, he isn't. Doesn't dispell what he has done.


Look at it this way.. 30 years from now people are going to be talking about Calvin Johnson's 2012 season. Unless, AP goes for 208 yards this weekend (which is highly unlikely) I don't think the same can be said for AP or PM for that matter.

 

[volfanbill]

This is so full of win, I had to revisit:

League leader in rush attempts:
1. Seattle
.
.
.
8. Minnesota
9. Denver

Peyton Manning is 8th for most pass attempts this season. My statement is full of win. The fact that the offense has the ball a lot thanks to their great D doesn't diminish the facts I presented. Kind of funny that you can't present an argument for anything else. Face it, you're not just wrong, you're dead wrong.

 

[Scotty's Flat Top]

Manning is MVP.
AP is OPOTY.
The should split the CPOTY.
Calvin Johnson had a nice statistical season and broke an old record. No awards for that.

The term understatement is an understatement to how ho-hum you act in regards to CJ's 2012 season. C'mon man. The adjective "nice" would be more suited for WR's who crack 700-800 yards. That is a nice season.

 

[n_huffhines]

Peyton Manning is 8th for most pass attempts this season. My statement is full of win. The fact that the offense has the ball a lot thanks to their great D doesn't diminish the facts I presented. Kind of funny that you can't present an argument for anything else. Face it, you're not just wrong, you're dead wrong.

The Broncos are 10th in pass attempts, and 9th in rush attempts.

The Broncos RBs will actually have more carries in 2012 than they did last year when they truly were "run first". One gigantic reason the D is playing so well is Manning gives them a lead (which plays to their pass rushing strength) and he keeps the D off the field.

The Broncos have a lot more plays than the Vikings because Manning is so damn good at moving the chains. That works in Manning's favor. It's not AP's fault that he can't move the chains like Manning, but that's the nature of the position. This is why I say AP is "most outstanding", but not "most valuable".

 

[volfanbill]

The Broncos are 10th in pass attempts, and 9th in rush attempts.

The Broncos RBs will actually have more carries in 2012 than they did last year when they truly were "run first". One gigabyte reason the D is playing so well is Manning gives them a lead (which plays to their pass rushing strength) and he keeps the D off the field.

The Broncos have a lot more plays than the Vikings because Manning is so damn good at moving the chains. That works in Manning's favor. It's not AP's fault that he can't move the chains like Manning, but that's the nature of the position. This is why I say AP is "most outstanding", but not "most valuable".

There's no correlation in Peyton Manning moving the chains quicker and that making him more valuable. Having rbs like McGahee and Moreno takes away from him being more valuable. If you take Peyton away from the Broncos they would still beat up on teams like the Jaguars, Chiefs, Raiders, etc. if you take AP away from the Vikings, they would be lucky to finish .500 against those same teams.

 

[n_huffhines]

There's no correlation in Peyton Manning moving the chains quicker and that making him more valuable. Having rbs like McGahee and Moreno takes away from him being more valuable. If you take Peyton away from the Broncos they would still beat up on teams like the Jaguars, Chiefs, Raiders, etc. if you take AP away from the Vikings, they would be lucky to finish .500 against those same teams.

I disagree, and there's no way to know that for sure. We do know that with Orton and Tebow last year that the Broncos did indeed lose to KC and Oakland. They lost to Buffalo and Detroit by 26+ last year for hell's sake. Considering it's pretty much the same roster, minus Manning, I'd say that debunks your statement.

PS - Denver didn't play Jax

Why are you so high on the Denver RBs? Have you actually watched the Broncos? I've watched every snap. The RBs are not that great, and when you say "2 fully healthy RBs" I hope you aren't talking about McGahee because he hasn't played in weeks.

McGahee - 9 starts, 167 carries, 4.4 YPC, 4 TDs, 5 fumbles
Moreno - 5 starts, 124 carries, 3.9 YPC, 3 TDs, 1 fumble

 

[volfanbill]

and Hillman has filled in nicely. Most teams would do anything for two RBs averaging right at 4 ypc.

 

[n_huffhines]

and Hillman has filled in nicely. Most teams would do anything for two RBs averaging right at 4 ypc.

You are stretching, bro. Since McGahee went down in week 10 Hillman's best game was 35 yards from schrimmage. The only good D he faced in that span (Baltimore) held him to 29 yards on 14 carries. He can't pass block to save his life, so they use him in a limited role.

You thought McGahee was healthy, and now you are trying to act like Hillman is a big contributor to Manning's success.

Here is the list of AFC teams that don't have 2 backs going for 3.9+ YPC:

San Diego
Tennessee
Cleveland

Not exactly "most teams", is it?

 

[volfanbill]

You are stretching, bro. Since McGahee went down in week 10 Hillman's best game was 35 yards from schrimmage. The only good D he faced in that span (Baltimore) held him to 29 yards on 14 carries. He can't pass block to save his life, so they use him in a limited role.

You thought McGahee was healthy, and now you are trying to act like Hillman is a big contributor to Manning's success.

Here is the list of AFC teams that don't have 2 backs going for 3.9+ YPC:

San Diego
Tennessee
Cleveland

Not exactly "most teams", is it?

only 30 backs with enough carries are even averaging that. Your stats are skewed.

 

[n_huffhines]

only 30 backs with enough carries are even averaging that. Your stats are skewed.

How many carries would be enough for you? I was going with about 80+.

No matter how you slice it, the Broncos run game was average at best. That's pretty much the same thing I'd say for Minnesota's pass game.

You are trying to shine up their turd run game and make it seem like he's had 2 solid backs to work with all year, and that that fact explains a lot of his success. Weeks 1 and 2 were the only weeks where McGahee and Moreno were both active.

 

[YankeeVol]

RG3 is a Pro Bowler

Luck or Wilson aren't

 

[YankeeVol]

oh and this:

The only other rookie quarterback ever to be selected to the original Pro Bowl roster (i.e., before people start dropping out and being replaced by alternates and such) was Dan Marino