New York City

[Weezer]

You’re confusing the actions and the outcome. I could punch you in self defense and you could die from that. That does not mean my actions went beyond the scope of self defense.

So how did this go beyond the scope of self defense? We have a man who responded to assault and battery from another man in a manner that is typically considered less harmful than throwing a punch. Unless you can show a video of the deceased going limp and then he continues to choke him, it’s hard to claim he went beyond the scope

He choked him to the point of death. Unless an autopsy report surfaces saying he died from some other physical cause, like a heart attack, it's not hard at all to claim he went beyond the scope. Do you know how hard it is to literally choke someone to death? He obviously held the hold far too long. It went beyond self-defense.

 

[Vol8188]

Even the Fox News article about 911 calls can’t avoid this:

You’ve still not answered my question.

 

[Vol8188]

He choked him to the point of death. Unless an autopsy report surfaces saying he died from some other physical cause, like a heart attack, it's not hard at all to claim he went beyond the scope. Do you know how hard it is to literally choke someone to death? He obviously held the hold far too long. It went beyond self-defense.

People put in choke holds die. It’s rare, but it happens. Just like people punched sometimes die. Rare, but it happens.

You’re assuming he died because he was choked excessively. I’m stating under normal circumstances people can die from being choked. You understand that right?

The answer to your question is not always that hard. But it depends on a lot of factors. Sometimes healthy kids die playing the blackout game for example.

 

[NashVol11]

In your mind are you legally only allowed to render aid to yourself?

Or are you allowed to intervene on the behalf of others who are being assaulted and battered?

Defense of others is the same elements of self-defense:

First, with exceptions, the defendant must prove that he or she was confronted with an unprovoked attack.

Witness said he didn’t attack anyone

Second, the defendant must prove that the threat of injury or death was imminent.

When he hadn’t attacked anyone

Third, the defendant must prove that the degree of force used in self-defense was objectively reasonable under the circumstances.

15 min chokehold for threats? Good luck

Fourth, the defendant must prove that he or she had an objectively reasonable fear that he or she was going to be injured or killed unless he or she used self-defense.

Based on what he was actually doing, not history they didn’t know, so again, good luck.

If the vigilante didn’t have a dad in the NYPD he would probably be in a worse situation

 

[Weezer]

People put in choke holds die. It’s rare, but it happens. Just like people punched sometimes die. Rare, but it happens.

You’re assuming he died because he was choked excessively. I’m stating under normal circumstances people can die from being choked. You understand that right?

The answer to your question is not always that hard. But it depends on a lot of factors

You just want to argue. The marine unintentionally killed a mentally ill vagrant. He should be charged. Intentional or not, a crime was committed. It was not a justifiable killing. Hell, from what Nash posted, it wasn't even self-defense. The marine was wrong.

 

[Vol8188]

Defense of others is the same elements of self-defense:



Witness said he didn’t attack anyone



When he hadn’t attacked anyone



15 min chokehold for threats? Good luck



Based on what he was actually doing, not history they didn’t know, so again, good luck.

If the vigilante didn’t have a dad in the NYPD he would probably be in a worse situation

To be clear throwing things is an “attack”? Right?

I’d want to know not how long the whole interaction was, but how long he was limp. It’s unlikely he was being choked for the entire time because any grown man is going to fight back.

 

[Vol8188]

You just want to argue. The marine unintentionally killed a mentally ill vagrant. He should be charged. Intentional or not, a crime was committed. It was not a justifiable killing. Hell, from what Nash posted, it wasn't even self-defense. The marine was wrong.

You’re attempting to claim it was excessive based on the outcome rather than the actions. That’s the issue. Healthy people die from very reasonable chokeholds. It’s rare but it happens. So you can’t judge if it was excessive based on the outcome. If I gave you a normal amount of rocephin and you died, the issue wasn’t that it was “excessive”.

And self defense does not have to be towards yourself but can be towards others.

12-year-old dies after TikTok 'Blackout Challenge,' aka 'Choking Game'

 

[VolStrom]

You just want to argue. The marine unintentionally killed a mentally ill vagrant. He should be charged. Intentional or not, a crime was committed. It was not a justifiable killing. Hell, from what Nash posted, it wasn't even self-defense. The marine was wrong.

Was the vagrant wearing his "I'm mentally ill" tee-shirt and wasn't allowed to be touched? There are people that get beat or killed almost every single day on the NYC subway trains by some mentally deranged person. The marine should get a medal for not allowing anyone else to be a victim.

If anyone needs to go to jail, it's the people responsible for arresting this man over 40 times and not getting him the mental help he needed.

 

[Weezer]

You’re attempting to claim it was excessive based on the outcome rather than the actions. That’s the issue. Healthy people die from very reasonable chokeholds. It’s rare but it happens. So you can’t judge if it was excessive based on the outcome. If I gave you a normal amount of rocephin and you died, the issue wasn’t that it was “excessive”.

And self defense does not have to be towards yourself but can be towards others.

12-year-old dies after TikTok 'Blackout Challenge,' aka 'Choking Game'

Borrowing from Nash.

"Neely, 30, a Michael Jackson impersonator who suffered from mental illness, was acting aggressively and screaming at other passengers – but hadn't attacked anyone, according to a freelance journalist who recorded the deadly confrontation.

Penny, 24, pulled Neely to the ground from behind and held him in a chokehold as two other men helped restrain the agitated man. Neely initially flailed his arms, but within minutes, can be seen going limp in the disturbing footage.

At one point, a fellow rider can be heard in the video telling the men that it looked like Neely had defecated on himself and warning them to be careful not to kill him. "

Now, tell me again how it wasn't "excessive".

Self-defense is based on you being afraid for your life or the life of another. What exactly had Neely done that made anyone "afraid for their life"? Thrown trash at them?? I believe self-defense also has some kind of threshold of making a reasonable attempt to escape. Perhaps a lawyer can chime in here. You don't just get to kill people, even accidently. Not that hard for any reasonable and sane person to understand.

 

[Weezer]

Was the vagrant wearing his "I'm mentally ill" tee-shirt and wasn't allowed to be touched? There are people that get beat or killed almost every single day on the NYC subway trains by some mentally deranged person. The marine should get a medal for not allowing anyone else to be a victim.

If anyone needs to go to jail, it's the people responsible for arresting this man over 40 times and not getting him the mental help he needed.

His actions spoke to his level of instability. If he actually attacked someone, which he didn't, and the marine had acted, it would be a different story. Do you support just randomly killing vagrants who may or may not assault someone, just because?

The marine should be charged with manslaughter.

 

[VolStrom]

His actions spoke to his level of instability. If he actually attacked someone, which he didn't, and the marine had acted, it would be a different story. Do you support just randomly killing vagrants who may or may not assault someone, just because?

The marine should be charged with manslaughter.

Unless you were there, you don't know what happened in the minutes leading up to the marine and others taking action. You sound like one of the Kyle Rittenhouse accusers that jumps to a conclusion before gathering the facts.

 

[AM64]

A guy threatening them who has a past history of violence. If he were just yelling for no reason and at no one in particular multiple people would not have called 911 to report the incident prior to the marine getting involved.

Lol at the “had no idea how to apply”. “Where’s your community college certificate in chokeholds! You can’t do that!”. And let’s not pretend that part even matters. If he shows you proof of training from his military experience in hand to hand combat which covers chokeholds, you’re not going to say “well, he was certified!”. So why even bring up something so stupid?

I’ve seen the 15 minute claim from the media but idk of anything that backs up that claim. Can you?

Obviously you brought race up. People are murdered every day. The fact that you decided to speak out against this specific example implies your motivations are racial.

Since the guy had exhibited this behavior and worse in the past and was judged to have mental issues, why shouldn't NYC and NY be complicit in not seeing that he received psychiatric care? Should they be releasing mentally disturbed people back on the street so that they are either harmed or harm others?

 

[Vol8188]

His actions spoke to his level of instability. If he actually attacked someone, which he didn't, and the marine had acted, it would be a different story. Do you support just randomly killing vagrants who may or may not assault someone, just because?

The marine should be charged with manslaughter.

choking someone who needed is not proof of excess. Sometimes people who are choked die

 

[NashVol11]

Unless you were there, you don't know what happened in the minutes leading up to the marine and others taking action. You sound like one of the Kyle Rittenhouse accusers that jumps to a conclusion before gathering the facts.

You mean a conclusion like “the killer deserves a medal”? Lmao.

Witness statements exist, and all of them so far support what Weezer is saying instead of the assumptions you appear to be drawing from thin air

 

[Weezer]

Holy hell. People keep bringing up his past, but the people involved weren't familiar with his past. His past had NOTHING to do with the incident being discussed.

From a journalist who was actually present when the situation unfolded.

"On Monday afternoon, freelance journalist Juan Alberto Vázquez was headed to Yonkers on from Brooklyn on the F train when it pulled into the Second Avenue stop in Manhattan, where Neely boarded. “He started yelling,” Vázquez said in an interview on Thursday evening, a day after he was interviewed by police. “He started lamenting that he didn’t have food, that he didn’t have water. From what I understood, he was yelling that he was tired, that he didn’t care about going to jail.” Neely did not ask for anything and was acting in “a very violent way, a very dramatic way,” at one point throwing his jacket to the floor so hard that Vázquez could hear the zipper’s impact: “The people who were sitting around him — well, yeah, they were scared, and they stood up and they moved around the train car” as Neely stood in place and kept yelling."

"At that moment, Vázquez said, “this man came up behind him and grabbed him by the neck” and forced Neely to the ground. (Vázquez told the New York Times he did not actually see Penny grab Neely, just heard them go down and then saw them on the floor.) About 30 seconds later, the train reached the Broadway–Lafayette Street stop: “When the two doors opened, everyone rushed out, obviously, afraid, because now there was an actual fight.”

"Vázquez stepped out to tell the conductor to stop the train while the veteran told bystanders to call the police. Then Vázquez started to film the scene inside the car. For about a minute, “nothing happens; they’re just lying there,” he said. (Vázquez cut that portion from the video he published.) “And then when Jordan tried to escape again, they rolled over again,” he said."

The video of the choke hold goes on for nearly four minutes. After two minutes, a man enters the train to warn that the choke hold could be lethal. “If you suffocate him, that’s it,” he says. “You don’t want to catch a murder charge.” One of the men responds, “He’s not squeezing no more,” and the veteran releases the choke hold. By this time, Neely is unconscious.

“And we were all looking at each other, like, What’s going on? Did he faint? What happened?” Vázquez said."


Not seeing where Neely's actions were so great that anyone felt in fear of their lives. Scared? Sure. But in fear for their lives? It didn't reach that level.

FFS, when did we stop caring about human beings being needlessly killed? When did it become okay to kill mentally unstable people? He hadn't even committed a crime yet on this day. He was ranting and raving about being hungry and thirsty. And that was enough to kill him over?

This world is so messed up.

 

[Vol8188]

Witness statements exist, and all of them so far support what Weezer is saying instead of the assumptions you randomly made up

They don’t actually. Multiple sources state he was throwing things at people and threatening them. If you do that to others, someone may attempt to restrain you. When that happens, x% of people who get restrained end up dying.

 

[Vol8188]

Holy hell. People keep bringing up his past, but the people involved weren't familiar with his past. His past had NOTHING to do with the incident being discussed.

From a journalist who was actually present when the situation unfolded.

"On Monday afternoon, freelance journalist Juan Alberto Vázquez was headed to Yonkers on from Brooklyn on the F train when it pulled into the Second Avenue stop in Manhattan, where Neely boarded. “He started yelling,” Vázquez said in an interview on Thursday evening, a day after he was interviewed by police. “He started lamenting that he didn’t have food, that he didn’t have water. From what I understood, he was yelling that he was tired, that he didn’t care about going to jail.” Neely did not ask for anything and was acting in “a very violent way, a very dramatic way,” at one point throwing his jacket to the floor so hard that Vázquez could hear the zipper’s impact: “The people who were sitting around him — well, yeah, they were scared, and they stood up and they moved around the train car” as Neely stood in place and kept yelling."

"At that moment, Vázquez said, “this man came up behind him and grabbed him by the neck” and forced Neely to the ground. (Vázquez told the New York Times he did not actually see Penny grab Neely, just heard them go down and then saw them on the floor.) About 30 seconds later, the train reached the Broadway–Lafayette Street stop: “When the two doors opened, everyone rushed out, obviously, afraid, because now there was an actual fight.”

"Vázquez stepped out to tell the conductor to stop the train while the veteran told bystanders to call the police. Then Vázquez started to film the scene inside the car. For about a minute, “nothing happens; they’re just lying there,” he said. (Vázquez cut that portion from the video he published.) “And then when Jordan tried to escape again, they rolled over again,” he said."

The video of the choke hold goes on for nearly four minutes. After two minutes, a man enters the train to warn that the choke hold could be lethal. “If you suffocate him, that’s it,” he says. “You don’t want to catch a murder charge.” One of the men responds, “He’s not squeezing no more,” and the veteran releases the choke hold. By this time, Neely is unconscious.

“And we were all looking at each other, like, What’s going on? Did he faint? What happened?” Vázquez said."


Not seeing where Neely's actions were so great that anyone felt in fear of their lives. Scared? Sure. But in fear for their lives? It didn't reach that level.

FFS, when did we stop caring about human beings being needlessly killed? When did it become okay to kill mentally unstable people? He hadn't even committed a crime yet on this day. He was ranting and raving about being hungry and thirsty. And that was enough to kill him over?

This world is so messed up.

Assault and battery are both crimes. And the dumb statement of “that was enough to kill him over” very falsely implies intent. Everything seems to point to the marine not wanting to kill the man.

 

[Weezer]

Since the guy had exhibited this behavior and worse in the past and was judged to have mental issues, why shouldn't NYC and NY be complicit in not seeing that he received psychiatric care? Should they be releasing mentally disturbed people back on the street so that they are either harmed or harm others?

NYC failed him, but that doesn't justify him being killed.

 

[NashVol11]

Holy hell. People keep bringing up his past, but the people involved weren't familiar with his past. His past had NOTHING to do with the incident being discussed.

From a journalist who was actually present when the situation unfolded.

"On Monday afternoon, freelance journalist Juan Alberto Vázquez was headed to Yonkers on from Brooklyn on the F train when it pulled into the Second Avenue stop in Manhattan, where Neely boarded. “He started yelling,” Vázquez said in an interview on Thursday evening, a day after he was interviewed by police. “He started lamenting that he didn’t have food, that he didn’t have water. From what I understood, he was yelling that he was tired, that he didn’t care about going to jail.” Neely did not ask for anything and was acting in “a very violent way, a very dramatic way,” at one point throwing his jacket to the floor so hard that Vázquez could hear the zipper’s impact: “The people who were sitting around him — well, yeah, they were scared, and they stood up and they moved around the train car” as Neely stood in place and kept yelling."

"At that moment, Vázquez said, “this man came up behind him and grabbed him by the neck” and forced Neely to the ground. (Vázquez told the New York Times he did not actually see Penny grab Neely, just heard them go down and then saw them on the floor.) About 30 seconds later, the train reached the Broadway–Lafayette Street stop: “When the two doors opened, everyone rushed out, obviously, afraid, because now there was an actual fight.”

"Vázquez stepped out to tell the conductor to stop the train while the veteran told bystanders to call the police. Then Vázquez started to film the scene inside the car. For about a minute, “nothing happens; they’re just lying there,” he said. (Vázquez cut that portion from the video he published.) “And then when Jordan tried to escape again, they rolled over again,” he said."

The video of the choke hold goes on for nearly four minutes. After two minutes, a man enters the train to warn that the choke hold could be lethal. “If you suffocate him, that’s it,” he says. “You don’t want to catch a murder charge.” One of the men responds, “He’s not squeezing no more,” and the veteran releases the choke hold. By this time, Neely is unconscious.

“And we were all looking at each other, like, What’s going on? Did he faint? What happened?” Vázquez said."


Not seeing where Neely's actions were so great that anyone felt in fear of their lives. Scared? Sure. But in fear for their lives? It didn't reach that level.

FFS, when did we stop caring about human beings being needlessly killed? When did it become okay to kill mentally unstable people? He hadn't even committed a crime yet on this day. He was ranting and raving about being hungry and thirsty. And that was enough to kill him over?

This world is so messed up.

I’ll add that anyone who has spent more than 15 seconds in NYC sometime in the last 50 years has likely seen a homeless guy ranting on the train. Most of them manage to avoid going wannabe MMA

 

[Weezer]

Assault and battery are both crimes.

Who did he assault? The journalist, who was there, said he hadn't assaulted anyone.

 

[Vol8188]

NYC failed him, but that doesn't justify him being killed.

If you run a stop sign, you may die. No one is saying that’s justified, but rather an extreme and unlikely consequence of your own poor behavior. That’s what happened to this man. An unlikely consequence of poor behavior

 

[Vol8188]

Who did he assault? The journalist, who was there, said he hadn't assaulted anyone.

1. Google the definition of assault. You clearly don’t know it.

2. Multiple reports have him throwing things at others. That’s battery.

If you’re yelling, threatening, and battering others you’ve now made a great case for why another person May reasonably wish to restrain you.

 

[NashVol11]

They don’t actually. Multiple sources state he was throwing things at people and threatening them. If you do that to others, someone may attempt to restrain you. When that happens, x% of people who get restrained end up dying.

Advocating for choking someone out as a natural response to them “throwing trash”, which the primary witness account also did not mention at all, is wild

 

[Weezer]

If you run a stop sign, you may die. No one is saying that’s justified, but rather an extreme and unlikely consequence of your own poor behavior. That’s what happened to this man. An unlikely consequence of poor behavior

1. Google the definition of assault. You clearly don’t know it.

2. Multiple reports have him throwing things at others. That’s battery.

If you’re yelling, threatening, and battering others you’ve now made a great case for why another person May reasonably wish to restrain you.

None of this gave the marine the right to physically assault Neely, put him in a choke hold, and ultimately kill him. If we meet on the street and I yell at you, you don't get to kill me for it. How is that so hard to understand? The marine committed a crime. Pure and simple. He should be charged. He doesn't get to get away with it simply because you dislike the guy he killed. That's not how things work. It doesn't matter if you find Neely to be an unsympathetic victim. A crime was committed against him. NOTHING suggests the marine feared for his life, or the life of anyone else. He decided to act, recklessly, and killed a man. There should be consequences.

 

[615vols]

Holy hell. People keep bringing up his past, but the people involved weren't familiar with his past. His past had NOTHING to do with the incident being discussed.

From a journalist who was actually present when the situation unfolded.

"On Monday afternoon, freelance journalist Juan Alberto Vázquez was headed to Yonkers on from Brooklyn on the F train when it pulled into the Second Avenue stop in Manhattan, where Neely boarded. “He started yelling,” Vázquez said in an interview on Thursday evening, a day after he was interviewed by police. “He started lamenting that he didn’t have food, that he didn’t have water. From what I understood, he was yelling that he was tired, that he didn’t care about going to jail.” Neely did not ask for anything and was acting in “a very violent way, a very dramatic way,” at one point throwing his jacket to the floor so hard that Vázquez could hear the zipper’s impact: “The people who were sitting around him — well, yeah, they were scared, and they stood up and they moved around the train car” as Neely stood in place and kept yelling."

"At that moment, Vázquez said, “this man came up behind him and grabbed him by the neck” and forced Neely to the ground. (Vázquez told the New York Times he did not actually see Penny grab Neely, just heard them go down and then saw them on the floor.) About 30 seconds later, the train reached the Broadway–Lafayette Street stop: “When the two doors opened, everyone rushed out, obviously, afraid, because now there was an actual fight.”

"Vázquez stepped out to tell the conductor to stop the train while the veteran told bystanders to call the police. Then Vázquez started to film the scene inside the car. For about a minute, “nothing happens; they’re just lying there,” he said. (Vázquez cut that portion from the video he published.) “And then when Jordan tried to escape again, they rolled over again,” he said."

The video of the choke hold goes on for nearly four minutes. After two minutes, a man enters the train to warn that the choke hold could be lethal. “If you suffocate him, that’s it,” he says. “You don’t want to catch a murder charge.” One of the men responds, “He’s not squeezing no more,” and the veteran releases the choke hold. By this time, Neely is unconscious.

“And we were all looking at each other, like, What’s going on? Did he faint? What happened?” Vázquez said."


Not seeing where Neely's actions were so great that anyone felt in fear of their lives. Scared? Sure. But in fear for their lives? It didn't reach that level.

FFS, when did we stop caring about human beings being needlessly killed? When did it become okay to kill mentally unstable people? He hadn't even committed a crime yet on this day. He was ranting and raving about being hungry and thirsty. And that was enough to kill him over?

This world is so messed up.

The article you posted says Neely was “acting in a very violent way, a very dramatic way”. Other witnesses said he threatened them with violence/bodily harm and they indeed feared for their safety. They began trying to move to the other side of the subway car. Keep in mind that violence on New York subways is constantly in the news right now, with people being randomly and without provocation stabbed, pushed onto the tracks, or just physically assaulted. People are understandably on edge more so, it really isn’t shocking that people felt scared or a need to intervene when you’re stuck on a subway car with a psycho shouting death threats and in your witnesses words “acting in a violent way”. Do you fault the marine and other guy who held him down for intervening? For all they knew he could be about to pull a knife and actually do the things he was saying he was about to do. I believe the marine should have stopped, dude was out and other passengers even warned him the guy was going to die. But let’s not sit around and pretend people were irrational to be scared or feel the need to intervene.