No “God Bless the USA,” “In God We Trust,” on school posters.

#77
#77
rjd970 said:
What are the outcome of one's action?
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Can you not lie and see a positive or good outcome?

Can you not cheat and see a positive or good outcome?

Can you not steal and see a positive or good outcome?
 
#78
#78
JZVOL said:
Beep, beep. How does one determine who is good and who is bad?
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well that's big question. if there is no God, then humans can define what is good and bad, there is no reference. but if there is a God, then he is one who determines what is good and bad, which would be absolute, never changing. no matter what type of logic we use to convince ourselves that our actions are good, they will not be good, because a perfect God has already determined what is good and bad.
 
#80
#80
JZVOL said:
Can you not lie and see a positive or good outcome?

Can you not cheat and see a positive or good outcome?

Can you not steal and see a positive or good outcome?
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Hence, the word "outcome".
 
#81
#81
joevol320 said:
well that's big question. if there is no God, then humans can define what is good and bad, there is no reference. but if there is a God, then he is one who determines what is good and bad, which would be absolute, never changing. no matter what type of logic we use to convince ourselves that our actions are good, they will not be good, because a perfect God has already determined what is good and bad.
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So all those germans and japanese we killed in WWII is bad? God says "thou shall not kill", and according to you, it is absolute and never changing, no matter the logic we try and use.
 
#82
#82
rjd970 said:
So all those germans and japanese we killed in WWII is bad? God says "thou shall not kill", and according to you, it is absolute and never changing, no matter the logic we try and use.
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let me think. Did God tell the Israelis to kill all of those in Canaan before or after the little tablet episode?

I think there is a very good argument that God viewed killing the nameless and faceless representatives of another nation as a part of a military operation differently than the commandment suggests.

Somehow, you knew that. I'm guessing you also know about the eye for an eye idea too.
 
#84
#84
BigPapaVol said:
I think there is a very good argument that God viewed killing the nameless and faceless representatives of another nation as a part of a military operation differently than the commandment suggests.
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I was responding to Joey's claim that the laws are absolute, without any room for interpretation. Obviously there is.

I would love for you to explain to me how practicing infantcide by killing all the first borns in Egypt is part of a military campaign, or even justified under any circumstance. Presumably, all the first borns were innocent of any crime against the Jews. How does this fit in your little purview of killing justification in the Bible? Why not just kill the Pharoah or guards from the beginning...for that matter...why even have them in bondage to begin with?

The simple answer here is the God of the OT is a petty and jealous meglomaniac that takes particlular interest in his "chosen people" (while evidently ignoring the rest of the world's population) and decides it is his duty to get involved in inter-tribal politics and micromanagement of agriculture disputes. Instead of giving more of the moral introspection that Jesus provided, he instead gives direction on how to sacrifice a wide variety of farm animals and demands the occasional fresh blood from other tribes, and in some instances, the Jews themselves. It is extremely difficult to find anything redeeming about the God of the OT. I would say that not only is the God of the OT unworthy of our worship, he is unworthy of even man himself.

There is blatant hypocrisy in the Bible when when looked at the context of the tablet episode. The moral absolutes of the 10 commandments are a ridiculously inadequate, especially when considering they came directly from the man himself, without the infection of human interpretation error.

It is patently absurd to think that the Israelites made it all the way to Sinai without knowing murder, theft, adultry, and perjury were wrong.
 
#85
#85
rjd970 said:
I was responding to Joey's claim that the laws are absolute, without any room for interpretation. Obviously there is.

I would love for you to explain to me how practicing infantcide by killing all the first borns in Egypt is part of a military campaign, or even justified under any circumstance. Presumably, all the first borns were innocent of any crime against the Jews. How does this fit in your little purview of killing justification in the Bible? Why not just kill the Pharoah or guards from the beginning...for that matter...why even have them in bondage to begin with?

The simple answer here is the God of the OT is a petty and jealous meglomaniac that takes particlular interest in his "chosen people" (while evidently ignoring the rest of the world's population) and decides it is his duty to get involved in inter-tribal politics and micromanagement of agriculture disputes. Instead of giving more of the moral introspection that Jesus provided, he instead gives direction on how to sacrifice a wide variety of farm animals and demands the occasional fresh blood from other tribes, and in some instances, the Jews themselves. It is extremely difficult to find anything redeeming about the God of the OT. I would say that not only is the God of the OT unworthy of our worship, he is unworthy of even man himself.

There is blatant hypocrisy in the Bible when when looked at the context of the tablet episode. The moral absolutes of the 10 commandments are a ridiculously inadequate, especially when considering they came directly from the man himself, without the infection of human interpretation error.

It is patently absurd to think that the Israelites made it all the way to Sinai without knowing murder, theft, adultry, and perjury were wrong.
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I can't speak for Joey but I can say; "Trust God and lean not to thine own understanding."

Let me ask, are you familiar with the "seven steps to immortality" of the Zoroastrians??

How about the Summum which has Seven Principles of Creation: (This was supposedly on the first tablet that Moses brought down from the mount but when he saw that his people were worshiping the golden calf and indulging in all sorts of debauchery, he destroyed the tablets and went back and got the ten commandments
because he saw they were not yet ready for that higher knowledge.)

* The Principle of Psychokinesis: Summum is mind, thought; the universe is a mental creation. (similar to the Hindu goal of ultimately achieving nirvanna, or connection with the godhead.)

* The Principle of Correspondence: As above, so below; as below, so above. (as is prominent in Buddhist teachings.)

* The Principle of Vibration: Nothing rests; everything moves; everything vibrates.
(ever heard the music of the spheres?)

* The Principle of Opposition: Everything is dual; everything has an opposing point; everything has its pair of opposites; like and unlike are the same; opposites are identical in nature, but different in degree; extremes bond; all truths are but partial truths; all paradoxes may be reconciled.
( very Taoist, Lao Tse said that his wisdom came from immortals, have you heard of the book; Christ the eternal Tao?)

* The Principle of Rhythm: Everything flows out and in; everything has its season; all things rise and fall; the pendulum swing expresses itself in everything; the measure of the swing to the right is the measure of the swing to the left; rhythm compensates. (you can't have a big swing band without a rhythm sections :) )

* The Principle of Cause and Effect: Every cause has its effect; every effect has its cause; everything happens according to Law; Chance is just a name for Law not recognized; there are many fields of causation, but nothing escapes the Law of Destiny. (physics is physics)

* The Principle of Gender: Everything has its masculine and feminine principles; Gender manifests on all levels. (viv la differance, yin and yang.)

You want to talk about meglomaniacs??? Talk about FDR, Hitler, Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Mugabe, Castro, Che, Mandela, Muhammed, Tito, Amin, Hussein, Ghadaffi, and Obama, those are some of your meglomaniacs.


I don't think God ever wanted to tax cow farts!!!
 
#90
#90
JZVOL said:
That makes no sense. It very easy to do something wrong and have a positive outcome, or the outcome of a "bad" action be good.
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I know, so why follow God's commandments as absolute, with no relativity?
 
#91
#91
JZVOL said:
Yes because human thinking isn't flawed at all.
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Is this supposed to be some sort of justification for the rampant pornographic fascination God has with violence in the OT?

God's instructions on such matters is why men like Thomas Aquinas and St. Augustine could read something like the Sermon on the Mount, or the Beatitudes, and still endorse wholesale murder and torture of heretics. Brilliant and otherwise compassionate men have been consistently driven to do bad deeds by following the worse parts of the Bible, using the justification you just cited.
 
#92
#92
rjd970 said:
I know, so why follow God's commandments as absolute, with no relativity?
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God made plenty commandments that don't apply now. For example what to do with clay pots after cooking meat in them.

I fail to see how following Jesus and trying understand how He would want us to live neighbor-to-neighbor could result in any but positive.

Also by any criteria I would be considered a "good" person even taking religion out of the equation. However I know there are plenty of things I've done to people or just done in my life that are not against human law and therefore I will never suffer a consequence for my bad action.

Without believing in God, or consequences, or answering for the things we have done during our life after we die, what's the point in doing "good" on a personal level?
 
#93
#93
rjd970 said:
Is this supposed to be some sort of justification for the rampant pornographic fascination God has with violence in the OT?

God's instructions on such matters is why men like Thomas Aquinas and St. Augustine could read something like the Sermon on the Mount, or the Beatitudes, and still endorse wholesale murder and torture of heretics. Brilliant and otherwise compassionate men have been consistently driven to do bad deeds by following the worse parts of the Bible, using the justification you just cited.
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No those people had agendas and used certain aspects of the Bible to justify their agendas.

Jesus changed everything. When He died the veil in the Holy of Holies was torn (top to bottom) and the relationship humans had with God was totally changed through Jesus. We pray to God, through Jesus.

I've obviously heard of St. Augustine and Thomas Aquinas but am not sure of what they did. However anyone justifying wholesale murder or torture like you are saying with God as the reason or motivation is a lost fool.
 
#94
#94
To both your posts...

First, I would go back and read Leviticus, Deuteronomy, and Exodus from the OT, and Thessalonians and Revelations from the NT to see the retribution God exspects to lay down on non-believers. Aquinas and Augustine, two of the most influential thinkers and philosophers of early Christianity (Augustine was actually sainted), were going based on this. There is no two ways around it.

Second, you are hitting on a point without actually saying it. There are good parts of the Bible and bad parts of the Bible. The fact that even one part is bad casts doubt on the omnipotence of the Lord. And if Jesus was supposed to be the real model of how we should live our lives, why even have the OT to begin with, and just skip to the good parts? The fact of the matter is, WE decide what is actually good in the good book, and it is ever changing...again, casting doubt that this guy we call God actually is who he says he is. Aquinas and Augustine, for example, thought that torture of heretics and all the grotesqueness of the inquisition were justified, and seen as good deeds through the prism of God's word. They were quick to quote chapter and verse to justify it, and there is no reason to believe they were doing it for any agenda, or just for kicks. They also were excellent philosophers and extremely brilliant men, further testifying to the fact that once one believes the book they are reading is the word of an almighty creator, all bets are off as to real rationalization of what they are doing.

I agree with much of what Jesus taught. I agree with his teachings on social justice, his compassion, and his teachings how we should treat one another. But that is it. This divinity-miracle wreaking stuff is nonsense. There is very little one can gather from the OT, and taking Jesus at face value is probably best. Aquinas, Augustine, and the rest of humanity would have been much better served if they had done this from the beginning.
 
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#95
#95
BigPapaVol said:
let me think. Did God tell the Israelis to kill all of those in Canaan before or after the little tablet episode?

I think there is a very good argument that God viewed killing the nameless and faceless representatives of another nation as a part of a military operation differently than the commandment suggests.

Somehow, you knew that. I'm guessing you also know about the eye for an eye idea too.
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One of the most misunderstood elements in the Old Testament.

It is not literal. It was a means of compensation. In other words, you would be compensated for how much your eye is worth.
 
#97
#97
rjd970 said:
To both your posts...

First, I would go back and read Leviticus, Deuteronomy, and Exodus from the OT, and Thessalonians and Revelations from the NT to see the retribution God exspects to lay down on non-believers. Aquinas and Augustine, two of the most influential thinkers and philosophers of early Christianity (Augustine was actually sainted), were going based on this. There is no two ways around it.

Second, you are hitting on a point without actually saying it. There are good parts of the Bible and bad parts of the Bible. The fact that even one part is bad casts doubt on the omnipotence of the Lord. And if Jesus was supposed to be the real model of how we should live our lives, why even have the OT to begin with, and just skip to the good parts? The fact of the matter is, WE decide what is actually good in the good book, and it is ever changing...again, casting doubt that this guy we call God actually is who he says he is. Aquinas and Augustine, for example, thought that torture of heretics and all the grotesqueness of the inquisition were justified, and seen as good deeds through the prism of God's word. They were quick to quote chapter and verse to justify it, and there is no reason to believe they were doing it for any agenda, or just for kicks. They also were excellent philosophers and extremely brilliant men, further testifying to the fact that once one believes the book they are reading is the word of an almighty creator, all bets are off as to real rationalization of what they are doing.

I agree with much of what Jesus taught. I agree with his teachings on social justice, his compassion, and his teachings how we should treat one another. But that is it. This divinity-miracle wreaking stuff is nonsense. There is very little one can gather from the OT, and taking Jesus at face value is probably best. Aquinas, Augustine, and the rest of humanity would have been much better served if they had done this from the beginning.
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That's a huge difference in us. I have no problem with God's retribution, much in the same way I have no problem with my father on Earth punishing me for my actions. I understand that the wages of sin is death and have no problem with it.

Well I do not think there are bad parts of the Bible. There are plenty of things I don't understand, but not understanding something doesn't make it bad.

That is 100% incorrect. Our society changes for sure, but that doesn't change the Bible or God. Malachi 13:8 "For I am the Lord, I do not change."
Hebrews 13: Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever.

See you just hit the nail on the head at what's wrong with society's view of Christianity. We are trying to fit God (Jesus) into what we want Him to be for us, instead of searching for His truth and His commands on how to live life, which never changes. We are the ones who bastardized God's words, not God.


Again this is where we part ways. It is a large gamble rejecting Christ. And yes I get that you don't think so.
 
#99
#99
rjd970 said:
That about sums up the problem, IMO.
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So what is the problem again?

JZVOL said:
So you are you saying I'm brainwashed?
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You're not saying you have a dirty brain?? :)

rjd970 said:
I know, so why follow God's commandments as absolute, with no relativity?
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Because it's not signed E=mc2??

rjd970 said:
I agree with much of what Jesus taught. I agree with his teachings on social justice, his compassion, and his teachings how we should treat one another. But that is it.

This divinity-miracle wreaking stuff is nonsense.
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So you don't believe the accounts of the miracles of Jesus in the Gospels??? Making the blind to see, the lame to walk, raising the dead to life??

John 21;25: And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written.


rjd970 said:
There is very little one can gather from the OT, and taking Jesus at face value is probably best. Aquinas, Augustine, and the rest of humanity would have been much better served if they had done this from the beginning.
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Just because someone did something in the name of Jesus doesn't mean they were fulfilling His desires.

Matthew 7:21-23 not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father, which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? And in thy name have cast out devils? And in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
 
#100
#100
The day we judge the educational process or our schools by what's on a couple of posters in the hallway is the day we officially give up on academics and intellect and instead shift to mantras and slogans.
 
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