Obama signs kids' health insurance bill ($32.8 billion)

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#77
#77
3. dying of a toothache?? I'm going to call BS on that one. Unless there was an underlying sepsis or the kid had a ridiculously low pain threshold, there's no way a toothache is going to kill somebody.

It actually does happen, very rarely. It's pretty freaking uncommon that someone lives with the pain long enough to let something like that happen, though. Usually it only happens with people that have severe mental retardation. Brushing your teeth occasionally and not drinking a 6 pack of a Coke a day would be helpful. Additionally, hospitals like to charge an absurdly high price for tooth extractions because they know that their clientele wouldn't pay if the price was $20. That way when they can report that they need more money because they are forced to give out all this free treatment.
 
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Actually, I really want to take this a step further... Why is it that you don't want me to use the words of the Bible? Because I am using it out of context? Because you disagree with me? Because it gives the impression that I am implying the Bible as a whole advances a socialist agenda? With something as vast, ambiguous and yet of obvious importance of the Bible I'm curious as to why I can't use it, especially in how I did with the only reference being "to the least of these."
Because you are trying to use the Bible as if you are some grand authority on it's meaning and connotation, adding that you are in "divinity school". You are most certainly committing blasphemy. Have you learned about that yet in divinity school?

Apparently, you do not read enough C.S. Lewis, G.K. Chesterson, Augustine, Aquinas, Ambrose, or More in divinity school. Five of these six theologians very overtly promoted the individual above the community.
 
#79
#79
Here is a comic cartoon conversation I read a few years ago...

"Don't you ever want to ask God why he doesn't do anything to help the poor, homeless, and overall evil in the world?"....To which the other guy replied, "Nope. Because I'm afraid he'll ask me the same thing."

As for the Church, I don't know why they didn't do anything. I wish they would have. I feel like they should have.

Point I was making was that there were other avenues this mother could've taken to save her child's life. This doesn't sound like a pride issue, just pure laziness on the mother's behalf. I seriously doubt that a dentist would have denied any sort of treatment that could have saved this boy's life, especially one under 100.00.
 
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Point I was making was that there were other avenues this mother could've taken to save her child's life. This doesn't sound like a pride issue, just pure laziness on the mother's behalf. I seriously doubt that a dentist would have denied any sort of treatment that could have saved this boy's life, especially one under 100.00.

Oh i agree 100% that laziness was involved, and also (I imagine) a sense of not really knowing what all is out there... There are a lot of programs out there that people don't even know about - similar to all the scholarships that are out there that people don't know about...

But regardless, I can't stand the fact that the child died because of the mother's laziness/inability to take care of her child...
 
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#81
Because you are trying to use the Bible as if you are some grand authority on it's meaning and connotation, adding that you are in "divinity school". You are most certainly committing blasphemy. Have you learned about that yet in divinity school?

Apparently, you do not read enough C.S. Lewis, G.K. Chesterson, Augustine, Aquinas, Ambrose, or More in divinity school. Five of these six theologians very overtly promoted the individual above the community.

Have you read my articles man? I actually said the exact opposite, acknowledging that the Bible was ambiguous and could be interpreted differently... PLUS, all I said was "the least of these." Thats it, haha... And aren't you acting like the grand authority by claiming the position of those theologians? Oh, and to answer your incredibly patronizing question, Yes, I have read them, except for Chesterson.. Which works exactly are you referring to? I just find it weird that you included C.S. Lewis who kinda got the title of a Theologian by default rather than personal ambition with the rest of those writers...
 
#82
#82
I think you're absolutely in left field about about individualism dominating our history. Play semantics all you'd like about our world, but I clearly meant the US.

All of the Pilgrims were individuals to the core. Our founding fathers were absolute individuals and individualists. The greatest source of our strength, the industrial revolution and entrepreneurialism, was nothing more than an individualism tour de force.

Those individuals would be: Washington, Jefferson, Hamilton, Hancock, N Green, Franklin, Jackson, Lincoln, Rockefeller, Vanderbilt, Gates, etc etc etc. The list got unmanageable from my cell phone.
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Ok, good post... Sorry if this was unclear, but I didn't mean individualism has dominated our history, but that at some point (that point basically being the industrial revolution) we replaced community for individualism (there are obviously examples to the contrary, most commonly within minority groups)...The reason why it happened at the industrial revolution was because that is when jobs/skills became "specialized." The whole notion of a "jack of all trades" was basically out the window, and people had to become more specialized...

Overall, I guess we will jjust have to agree to disagree... My whole point is that there are a lot more folks now who don't know who their neighbors are, who don't interact with people in the community like they used to, who spend more time detached from society (get in a car to drive somewhere that is only a 10 min. walk, etc)....

The reason why I feel like community is important is because I think the majority of people are good people, and would gladly help someone that they felt obligated to help (for instance, if your best friend needed money for something, most people would help him/her out because they are your good friend and a part of you feels obligated to help them out if they are in trouble)... Well, in my opinion, what has happened is that people now feel less responsible/obligated to help people out because once you make money, you detach yourself from the community... You go buy a big house, with lots of land, etc etc... I'm not saying thats a bad life or anything, but just the reason why we feel less obligated to help out those that are less fortunate in our community because even if they live just 5 minutes away, we never interact with them... We eat at different places, go to different churches, have a different social scene... And I strongly believe that if that were changed - meaning if we did interact with them more and realize that MOST of them aren't lazy, most of them ARE hard-working but maybe didn't get an education, or maybe joined the army but then came back to a family and so had to just take the first available job, etc - then we would sing a different tune when it came to making healthcare a universal right....

I'm not really sure what else to cover here. Those are my beliefs, I don't naively think they are going to change your all's thoughts no more than you all will mine... So if any of you want to discuss further feel free to shoot me a message, otherwise I'm going to move on to spending my time reading about recruiting, etc haha... Take care guys and God Bless.
 
#83
#83
So I'm hesitant to do this just because in the end nothing is going to get resolved on here and as the poster above said, it is pretty trivial... but anyway, here are my two cents (and I being with the caveat that I worked on the Obama campaign for the past half year in VA).

For one, yes Emergency Rooms (I'm pretty sure) are not allowed to turn anybody away (thats why if you have ever had to go to the ER for something serious you usually see your city's finest there because they have a toothache).... what is often overlooked, however, is that the taxpayers pay for their trips to the ER as well....

Both political parties make a living out of providing fear to the public (see the Cold War, Nuclear Arms race, and most recently Terrorism). The assumption that the Democratic Party gets giddy about taking money from the working classes' pockets and puts it in the hands of those that do nothing is pretty absurd... 2 reasons. 1) You make it seem that people that were rich under Reagan and the first Bush were on dang food stamps under Clinton.... and 2) Those that are born into poverty are over 85% likely to die in poverty... You offer this perception that these social services are single handedly making the poor class rise above the middle class..Sure, it is discouraging when you look at a Housing Project and see a new Cadillac Escalade, but is it not equally upsetting to see a newly married couple buying a house/car/flat screen TV, etc that they cannot afford either? As we all know, there is a difference between owning something and borrowing/leasing it...Greed is not constrained by race or even wealth....

The most difficult part about social service programs is that pretty much everyone wants to make sure the children are taken care of (the reason why politicians always make it be about the children) mostly because the children can't really be blamed for their parent's failures - whether they were self inflicted or not... Yet how do you propose this be done? As a whole this country has agreed that certain ideals and principles should be used as a guidepost to public policy - to ensure that everyone is given a fair shot, etc.

For example, we have agreed that as a society everyone should be granted access to the Fire department if there house is on fire, access to police department, postal service, telephone service, etc... Yet at what point, did we exclude healthcare from being a necessary element for all of society???? Say what you want about the ER, but I don't personally think that is good enough for our children... I worked for a non-profit organization here in Boston last spring and we had reports of children dying from a toothache....

I end on this. As someone that worked on the campaign I interacted with the poor quite a bit, and there are too many skewed images of who they are, especially the black community... The black community are some of the most religious people I have ever met. Furthermore, practically everybody that I encountered had a job (do you really think one is able to live off of $7.50 an hour, even if they are tight with their money?).... I would go so far as to say that there are more spoiled suburban white collared kids in their twenties who don't have jobs because mommy and daddy still pay for anything than there are jobless folks in the poor communities....

It is sad though, because at some point in our relatively short history we replaced a sense of community for individualism... Everything is about the individual. Hell, even some churches are saying that Jesus wants you to be rich....The question is, is it more important for Donald Trump to have that second yacht or for us to try and help the "least of these." At least that is how I see it. Peace and God bless.

Donald Trump worked/works hard as hell for his money. If he chooses to buy 10 yachts, that is his right. When the government decides that he cannot, then we are no longer a capitolistic country. Hugo Chavez will be glad to tell you what you make is everybody's money.
 
#84
#84
I guess it comes down to responsibility. Paying the consequences for your actions, or expecting someone else too. Living here in Vietnam, I have seen poverty that makes a poor American look like a rich man.

While here, I have a local couple working for me. I pay them twice what they could make any where else here. The other day they told me that they were expecting a second child. She is forty. I ask them, "you cannot afford yourselfs, why in the world would you choose to bring another person into the world? Her response, all of her friends are having second children in their middle age. When I leave(probably shorty), they have no means to support themselves. It is this kind of thinking that drives a hard working individual crazy...people always expecting someone to bail them out. I have 4 children which I made sure that they would be financially taking care of if I died tomorrow. That just seems like the right thing to do, but maybe I am stupid. Maybe I should just have 6 or 7 more and let BO take care of them. Afterall, why should I work for everyone else...let me on the free train.
 
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#85
#85
I guess it comes down to responsibility. Paying the consequences for your actions, or expecting someone else too. Living here in Vietnam, I have seen poverty that makes a poor American look like a rich man.

While here, I have a local couple working for me. I pay them twice what they could make any where else here. The other day they told me that they were expecting a second child. She is forty. I ask them, "you cannot afford yourselfs, why in the world would you choose to bring another person into the world? Her response, all of her friends are having second children in their middle age. When I leave(probably shorty), they have no means to support themselves. It is this kind of thinking that drives a hard working individual crazy...people always expecting someone to bail them out. I have 4 children which I made sure that they would be financially taking care of if I died tomorrow. That just seems like the right thing to do, but maybe I am stupid. Maybe I should just have 6 or 7 more and let BO take care of them. Afterall, why should I work for everyone else...let me on the free train.

The problem with this is that you allow the few represent the majority... Yeah, that is pretty stupid for her to have a second child for that reason.. But to assume that the overwhelming majority of them are having kids so that they can get on the "free train" is absurd and incredibly shortsighted....

Plus, is it not kind of paradoxical to bash these people for having too many kids, but at the same time wanting to make abortion illegal??? Because studies indicate that the poor are not the ones having abortion, but rather the middle class or upper class ones who actually get judged/ostracized from society if there 16 year old daughter gets pregnant.... Not everybody is as outstanding of a citizen as you.
 
#86
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I love the emotional and whiny, yet irrational argument. Clearly the expense of kids should be a deterrent to those who can't afford them, but it's not to stupid people.

What you're advocating is the government again fixing the problem for people too stupid to make good decisions. That's not the role of government.

Moreover, the history of this type of program is simply disastrous.

This response isn't directly to your point of views, but the conservative lean in general. Your posts are just clearer and easier to respond to.

The logic here confuses me: conservatives strive hard that abortion is illegal in any way because the children have rights. But it appears that once they are born --- who cares? Let them die? That's seem contradictory.

OK, so yes, they are admitted to ER's regardless of health care; however, that's putting the cart before the horse. Giving these poor children regular check ups and preventative health care will reduce these ER costs (that tax payers foot due to increased health care costs) because sicknesses/illnesses will be caught early and more expensive ER treatments will be less necessary. So in effect, who is to say that this bill wont' actually reduce overall health care costs (due to less high cost ER visits by uninsured children) and therefore lower overall costs to businesses, employees, etc?
 
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This response isn't directly to your point of views, but the conservative lean in general. Your posts are just clearer and easier to respond to.

The logic here confuses me: conservatives strive hard that abortion is illegal in any way because the children have rights. But it appears that once they are born --- who cares? Let them die? That's seem contradictory.

OK, so yes, they are admitted to ER's regardless of health care; however, that's putting the cart before the horse. Giving these poor children regular check ups and preventative health care will reduce these ER costs (that tax payers foot due to increased health care costs) because sicknesses/illnesses will be caught early and more expensive ER treatments will be less necessary. So in effect, who is to say that this bill wont' actually reduce overall health care costs (due to less high cost ER visits by uninsured children) and therefore lower overall costs to businesses, employees, etc?

I have no interest in the right to life debate. Free stuff sure to become an entitlement is an enormous problem, as we have proven for the last half century and the Europeans have proven for a century.
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#88
#88
So in effect, who is to say that this bill wont' actually reduce overall health care costs (due to less high cost ER visits by uninsured children) and therefore lower overall costs to businesses, employees, etc?

one reason why this won't decrease costs is the fact that the language of the bill was changed to include household incomes up to 60K and include "kids" in their 20's if they still live with their parents and attend college.

again, there is a correlation between rights and responsibilities. The people who are asserting a right to free government provided health care are placing the responsibility on the taxpayer but aren't accepting any themselves.

so let's insure the children of poor families, but let's put some conditions on those families. One, the parent(s) must be non-smokers/drinkers. Two, the children can't be obese. Three, the children must be enrolled in school and have passing grades. Four, the parent(s) must be employed and be attending financial management courses (basic stuff like household budgeting). Five, cut off any and all welfare benefits after the second child. Six, any young girl who gets pregnant while covered under SCHIP, for any reason, must place the baby up for adoption.

again, I don't care if I sound cruel. I am just sick and tired of "the poor" being treated as if they have some virtue that nobody else possesses.
 
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I filled a prescription last week for a lady who had insurance for her and her husband, but her kids were on CHIPS(childrens health insurance program). I didn't realize you could do that.
 
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My wife and I just adopted a 10 year old boy. The social workers could not believe that we were putting him on our coverage and not leaving him on Medicaid. They told us we are crazy.
He is now OUR son and OUR responsibility.
 
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#91
The problem with this is that you allow the few represent the majority... Yeah, that is pretty stupid for her to have a second child for that reason.. But to assume that the overwhelming majority of them are having kids so that they can get on the "free train" is absurd and incredibly shortsighted....

Plus, is it not kind of paradoxical to bash these people for having too many kids, but at the same time wanting to make abortion illegal??? Because studies indicate that the poor are not the ones having abortion, but rather the middle class or upper class ones who actually get judged/ostracized from society if there 16 year old daughter gets pregnant.... Not everybody is as outstanding of a citizen as you.

I'll take that as a compliment.:hi:
 
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#92
one reason why this won't decrease costs is the fact that the language of the bill was changed to include household incomes up to 60K and include "kids" in their 20's if they still live with their parents and attend college.

again, there is a correlation between rights and responsibilities. The people who are asserting a right to free government provided health care are placing the responsibility on the taxpayer but aren't accepting any themselves.

so let's insure the children of poor families, but let's put some conditions on those families. One, the parent(s) must be non-smokers/drinkers. Two, the children can't be obese. Three, the children must be enrolled in school and have passing grades. Four, the parent(s) must be employed and be attending financial management courses (basic stuff like household budgeting). Five, cut off any and all welfare benefits after the second child. Six, any young girl who gets pregnant while covered under SCHIP, for any reason, must place the baby up for adoption.

again, I don't care if I sound cruel. I am just sick and tired of "the poor" being treated as if they have some virtue that nobody else possesses.

I understand your desire to monitor this closely -- but doing so would increase the costs dramatically. I guess the way I look at is this: it is inevitable that when a bill like this goes through, there were be misuse and people taking advantage of the system. However, if the overall goal is still achieved to a large degree (providing health care to kids in need) then I don't really care. I'd rather have some wasted expense knowing the kids are taken care of better (at least from a health care perspective).
 
#93
#93
I have no interest in the right to life debate. Free stuff sure to become an entitlement is an enormous problem, as we have proven for the last half century and the Europeans have proven for a century.
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I don't disagree with your post in general -- but we're talking about children. As the wealthiest country in the world we can and should provide for those that can't (children, disabled).
 
#94
#94
I understand your desire to monitor this closely -- but doing so would increase the costs dramatically. I guess the way I look at is this: it is inevitable that when a bill like this goes through, there were be misuse and people taking advantage of the system. However, if the overall goal is still achieved to a large degree (providing health care to kids in need) then I don't really care. I'd rather have some wasted expense knowing the kids are taken care of better (at least from a health care perspective).

name one government run social program that is both efficient and effective.

oh, and I forgot to add another requirement. Six, the parents are naturalized US citizens with verifiable work histories.
 
#95
#95
name one government run social program that is both efficient and effective.

oh, and I forgot to add another requirement. Six, the parents are naturalized US citizens with verifiable work histories.

Do you live in Tennessee and have power?
 
#99
#99
I don't disagree with your post in general -- but we're talking about children. As the wealthiest country in the world we can and should provide for those that can't (children, disabled).
no we shouldn't. There is no decent reason I can think of, aside from the emotional argument that gets down to the individual level.

This same argument is the one that has been the impetus for all of our disastrous social programs to date. Free stuff removes all impetus to provide it for oneself. That's the problem of socialism / communism in general.
 
I don't disagree with your post in general -- but we're talking about children. As the wealthiest country in the world we can and should provide for those that can't (children, disabled).

Absolutely agree. It is imperative we did this plan for children
 

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