Official "eat crow" because Butch was hired here thread

[T2P_Priceless]

ok.. cool and also take this into consideration.

when we're speaking of the recruiting and commits JUST under CBJ; let's break down the list into two sections. (1) the ones offered by CDD and saved by CBJ ( 2) and CBJ offers for 2013.....

What do we come up with? I went through the list, but I can't answer this off the top of my head, but last look there were quite a few, so technically, until next year 2014... will be 100% CBJ class then we'll know for sure whether he can recruit or not.

I agree 100,000% (I know that's not possible but exaggerating for the sake of enthusiasm).

However, you cannot deny the increase in intensity in practices and recruiting from the last staff.

Check out his video of practice from last year: Vols' spring practice - April 4, 2012 - YouTube It looks like loafing compared to this year's practices. Check out Bray yawning at the 1:50 mark.

Will that translate into wins? We'll see, but history has shown that folks that put in effort and time generally do well. Don't get me wrong, competence plays a role as well but from all indications this staff seems to be doing pretty well in that department as well.

Btw, what does your son say about the difference in practices?

 

[chavisut]

Which direction? what is the 21..

Did the 12 commit and come in under CBJ or were they committed to CDD and saved by CBJ

9 of the kids that signed with us committed to the previous staff. The other 12 committed after CBJ was hired.

 

[MZTERRY]

I agree 100,000% (I know that's not possible but exaggerating for the sake of enthusiasm).

However, you cannot deny the increase in intensity in practices and recruiting from the last staff. Check out his video of practice from last year: Vols' spring practice - April 4, 2012 - YouTube It looks like loafing compared to this year's practices. Check out Bray yawning at the 1:50 mark.

Will that translate into wins? We'll see, but history has shown that folks that in effort and time generally do well. Don't get me wrong, competence plays a role as well but from all indications this staff seems to be doing pretty well in that department as well.

Btw, what does your son say about the difference in practices?[/QUOTE]

Oh HELL NOOOOO!!!

roflmao.... I wish you guys could hear the conversation that the boys have with us after practice... MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH different ... undeniably!!

Comparing the two years now:

Last year...."This aint that rough mama... I thought it would be different"

This year.... "Ma, Coach Zee coach like Stancil..... I'm back to working out like i used to"

SO YEAHHH bro.... I'm on your side. I hear y'allepper:epper:

 

[gnm53108]

It's cool. It just frustrating of the continual.. CDD bash sessions... He's NOT here... move forward

Gotta say you might as well give up on that. Coach Fulmer, coach Majors, heck even coach Battle are still bashed here.

It irritates the crap out of me but I've learned to ignore it...most of the time.

 

[MZTERRY]

9 of the kids that signed with us committed to the previous staff. The other 12 committed after CBJ was hired.

so its fair to say 1/2 of this class was CDD's... Are we NOT excited about the 9?

the answer is we're excited about all 21, and whomever did whatever.... it's working in our favor and CBJ is working their asses to death.... in luv.. lol:rock:

i hope that we can all agree on

 

[T2P_Priceless]

I agree 100,000% (I know that's not possible but exaggerating for the sake of enthusiasm).

However, you cannot deny the increase in intensity in practices and recruiting from the last staff. Check out his video of practice from last year: Vols' spring practice - April 4, 2012 - YouTube It looks like loafing compared to this year's practices. Check out Bray yawning at the 1:50 mark.

Will that translate into wins? We'll see, but history has shown that folks that in effort and time generally do well. Don't get me wrong, competence plays a role as well but from all indications this staff seems to be doing pretty well in that department as well.

Btw, what does your son say about the difference in practices?[/QUOTE]

Oh HELL NOOOOO!!!

roflmao.... I wish you guys could hear the conversation that the boys have with us after practice... MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH different ... undeniably!!

Comparing the two years now:

Last year...."This aint that rough mama... I thought it would be different"

This year.... "Ma, Coach Zee coach like Stancil..... I'm back to working out like i used to"

SO YEAHHH bro.... I'm on your side. I hear y'allepper:epper:

Awesome, it sounds like we agree. GBO! #RisetotheTop! :good!:

 

[chavisut]

so its fair to say 1/2 of this class was CDD's... Are we NOT excited about the 9?

the answer is we're excited about all 21, and whomever did whatever.... it's working in our favor and CBJ is working their asses to death.... in luv.. lol:rock:

i hope that we can all agree on

I like the nine we kept, but I wasn't a fan of the way the class was heading overall.

 

[butchna]

I never implied that he didn't like CBJ better than Dooley. In fact, I think it is clear that he does.

I just said, let's not act like he was not a UT lean regardless of who was coaching.

He wasn't
Posted via VolNation Mobile

 

[KBVol]

I never implied that he didn't like CBJ better than Dooley. In fact, I think it is clear that he does.

I just said, let's not act like he was not a UT lean regardless of who was coaching.

Uh.... actually lets do just that. He grew up a UT fan, BUT, like his own father said .... He would not have signed with UT had Derek Dooley still been the coach.

Rather than argue with guys like me who like CBJ and recognize some of CDDs recruiting shortcomings, why don't you take it up with TKSr? He's the one who said it, not us. I promise you, if he had not said it, I would not bring it up.

 

[1974Vol]

CROW! Its what's for dinner! Got mine marinated, grilled and salted but waiting to azz kick the first couple of "weak sisters" on the schedule before taking my first bite. I hope its delish! Anybody know what wine goes best crow?
Posted via VolNation Mobile

 

[Orange_Crush]

CROW! Its what's for dinner! Got mine marinated, grilled and salted but waiting to azz kick the first couple of "weak sisters" on the schedule before taking my first bite. I hope its delish! Anybody know what wine goes best crow?
Posted via VolNation Mobile

There are many vintages of whine on VN. Take your pick. Warning though: They're all bitter.

 

[PKT_VOL]

Ignorant folks? The only thing regarding recruiting that anyone is arguing about with regards to PKT is that he seems to believe his "intuition" about recruiting trumps what the actual players and their parents have been publicly quoted as saying regarding Dooley and Jones. I'll go with the players and the parents. And yes I've read MZTerry's posts... got no problem there and can understand and respect that she really thought a lot of Dooley and his staff. But her example doesn't, in my mind, negate the situations with other recuits, namely Vonn Bell, TKJr and TKSr, Wharton, Hurd, etc. And I do consider Todd Kelly Sr, to be an "actual parent" by the way ... just because TKJr hasn't suited up for the Vols yet doesn't mean that TKSr doesn't exist....

Dude, I said no such thing. I don't believe I ever said "intuition". What I said, is that I don't give a lot of credence to recruiting comments, of any kind, because "if very word is taken literally, over time, they become contradictory, self-defeating, and some are just flat out false."

That's the thing. He was NOT a UT lean if CDD was coaching. HE SAID THAT!! He was a UT lean AFTER Dooley was fired.

Sr. said that it was unlikely Jr. would have signed if Dooley was still here.

Jr also said that every team was even (contradictory to Sr)

Jr also said that after a practice, he went from everybody being even to bleeding orange, shutting down his recruitment, and becoming an active recruiter for us (doesn't mesh well with the whole every team is even comment).

The point is that I don't put a lot of credence in ANY comments when it comes to recruiting. I certainly don't like cherry picking comments, giving them truth, while denying or dismissing other comments. Hell, I hated to even bring Mz Terry's comments into the discussion to point out that not every parent/recruit see Dooley in the light most in this thread have tried to paint of him.

What I do know, sans any contradictory comments, that a recruit who is a legacy, grows up a huge Vol fan, and lives in Knoxville, has a natural inclination to go to UT as opposed to a random recruit in North Carolina or a UGA legacy who lives in Athens, GA. That does not mean he was absolutely (or necessarily; in the logic sense) going to pick UT.

I don't understand what is so hard to comprehend about that. I don't know Jr or his father. I am sure most in here don't but go on their printed comments. I am merely pointing out the fallacies of taking every word as the Gospel. It is just the nature of recruiting (especially after a coaching change) and how recruiting is covered in the media.

Like I stated before, I love the way recruits have responded to CBJ. I love the way this recruiting process has started off. Hopefully, it will continue as the Butch era continues.

 

[KBVol]

You serious? I bet you think that is a brilliant analogy.

I also bet you also take every word in the recruiting thread as the Gospel and wonder why you were duped on/by NSD.

It absolutely was a brilliant analogy....

 

[PKT_VOL]

It absolutely was a brilliant analogy....

Only if you take every word in recruiting as the absolute truth.

I don't.

 

[KBVol]

Only if you take every word in recruiting as the absolute truth.

I don't.

No, I don't take every word from anybody as absolute truth. What I tend to do is take someone at their word unless they give me reason to doubt it or straight up prove it false.

The other thing I do is look at what a number of people are saying about the same subject. Is there a trend? A similar fact pattern? Are they valid?

In this case, regarding Dooleys reputation among some top recruits and others, namely TKJr, Bell, Wharton, Hurd, and a lot of Tenneessee highschool coaches, there were a couple of very similar themes..... the recruits loved UT but did not want to come here if Dooley was the coach and HS coaches complained that they rarely if ever heard from Dooley, got their calls returned, or even knew who the area recruiter from UT was.

 

[PKT_VOL]

No, I don't take every word from anybody as absolute truth. What I tend to do is take someone at their word unless they give me reason to doubt it or straight up prove it false.

The other thing I do is look at what a number of people are saying about the same subject. Is there a trend? A similar fact pattern? Are they valid?

In this case, regarding Dooleys reputation among some top recruits and others, namely TKJr, Bell, Wharton, Hurd, and a lot of Tenneessee highschool coaches, there were a couple of very similar themes..... the recruits loved UT but did not want to come here if Dooley was the coach and HS coaches complained that they rarely if ever heard from Dooley, got their calls returned, or even knew who the area recruiter from UT was.

It is a gigantic quagmire. I don't want to go through the quagmire. It never ends well.

It is all very subjective. There are trends, wherever you look, going in many different directions. There is the one you described which I believe started when the writing was on the wall (they knew their firing was coming midway through the season). There is also a trend of him doing a great recruiting job, given the state of the program when he took over (an absolute dumpster fire). He took a roster with virtually no talent and gave it a pretty decent base, again, relative to the given the condition. Certainly better than when got here.

Like I stated before, I don't like judging recruiting, recruiting comments or recruiting rating, until after they have signed and been on campus for a couple years. Fulmer had some highly rated classes (2007) that were flops. Lane was rated alright and turned out to be a disaster.

 

[KBVol]

It is a gigantic quagmire. I don't want to go through the quagmire. It never ends well.

It is all very subjective. There are trends, wherever you look, going in many different directions. There is the one you described which I believe started when the writing was on the wall (they knew their firing was coming midway through the season). There is also a trend of him doing a great recruiting job, given the state of the program when he took over (an absolute dumpster fire). He took a roster with virtually no talent and gave it a pretty decent base, again, relative to the given the condition. Certainly better than when got here.

Like I stated before, I don't like judging recruiting, recruiting comments or recruiting rating, until after they have signed and been on campus for a couple years. Fulmer had some highly rated classes (2007) that were flops. Lane was rated alright and turned out to be a disaster.

You're right on some points here PKT, IMHO. Dooley too had some classes that flopped, in terms of who wound up starting, contributing, remaining with that program, that's part of recruiting. It's in exact to some extent.

As I'm sure you know, CBS's Bruce Feldman was in town recently to write an article on Butch and the current state of the program. I thought it was a good read. Someone started a new thread about it, give it a read. Hopefully it'll give you reason, like it did me, to feel good about the direction of the program. I'm confident it's in good hands.

 

[darkgable]

Ignorant folks? The only thing regarding recruiting that anyone is arguing about with regards to PKT is that he seems to believe his "intuition" about recruiting trumps what the actual players and their parents have been publicly quoted as saying regarding Dooley and Jones. I'll go with the players and the parents. And yes I've read MZTerry's posts... got no problem there and can understand and respect that she really thought a lot of Dooley and his staff. But her example doesn't, in my mind, negate the situations with other recuits, namely Vonn Bell, TKJr and TKSr, Wharton, Hurd, etc. And I do consider Todd Kelly Sr, to be an "actual parent" by the way ... just because TKJr hasn't suited up for the Vols yet doesn't mean that TKSr doesn't exist....

To provide "proper context", I was all for Dooley's hire after the crap with Kiffin. Loved his pedigree (father Vince), wasn't crazy about his lack of success at La Tech, but I loved that he was an SEC guy who "got it", in my opinion. I was, despite his abysmal record, in his corner until the Missouri game. That's when I finally threw my hands up in disgust, and of course, the vandy beatdown sealed the deal. I've never thought Dooley was a bad guy nor have I seen the need to "bash him". I've simply read from multiple sources, heard from numerous past players and recruits, some bad things about his recruiting and how he ran the program in retrospect. His lack of recruitment of 5 Star stud recruits who grew up wanting to play for the Vols in his back yard (Bell and Hurd) was UNACCEPTABLE. This dovetailed with the reports from numerous High school coaches throughout Eastern and Middle Tennessee (don't know about West Tn) that he had little or no relationship with them and they, in some cases, could barely get him to return their calls, much less visit their schools and do his due diligence. The proof of this comes from a majority of the top players in Tennessee choosing to go elsewhere during his tenure.

Finally, your comment about CBJ having "potential" and criticizing him for his shared conference titles? Really? I'll take a guy who finishes first 4 out of 6 seasons, in 2 different conferences, with back to back 10 win seasons and a Big East Coach of the Year award on his resume ... beats the hell out of a coach with a .459 winning percentage in the WAC and a .417 winning percentage in the SEC who never won anything. :whistling:

Thank you.

 

[PKT_VOL]

You're right on some points here PKT, IMHO. Dooley too had some classes that flopped, in terms of who wound up starting, contributing, remaining with that program, that's part of recruiting. It's in exact to some extent.

As I'm sure you know, CBS's Bruce Feldman was in town recently to write an article on Butch and the current state of the program. I thought it was a good read. Someone started a new thread about it, give it a read. Hopefully it'll give you reason, like it did me, to feel good about the direction of the program. I'm confident it's in good hands.

As I stated earlier in this thread, I don't know how anybody can think such a thing. We are not even through with his first spring practice. I dunno. I just don't like to jump the gun.

I probably won't have an opinion of him until at least a year from now (whole season and recruiting period).

 

[KBVol]

As I stated earlier in this thread, I don't know how anybody can think such a thing. We are not even through with his first spring practice. I dunno. I just don't like to jump the gun.

I probably won't have an opinion of him until at least a year from now (whole season and recruiting period).

PKT, you don't know how "anybody can think such a thing?" If I had said that about Dooley when he came in from La Tech with a .459 winning %, I could understand.

Butch has won nearly 2/3 of his games as head coach, won 4 out of 6 league championships, has won a coach of the year award, has been lauded by every former Vol who has met him, has been endorsed by NFL guys, including Mike Tomlin, has gotten off to a great start recruiting, has been stated as THE REASON why one of the top running backs and one of the top DBs in the country has come to play at UT, and has literally pushed every single right button that he could possibly push to this point..... That's how you could think such a thing. Come on man.

Of course it all has to translate on the field, he's gotta win, we all know that ultimately. But as of now, given his track record and how he's conducting himself so far, you'd have to almost be a fool to NOT think the programs in great hands.

Alright, I'm done with this argument. See you on another thread sometime.

 

[LaagerVol]

I laughed out loud... This is a damn good post. It's gold.

I laughed because all comedy has a large amount of truth to it. Sadly, your bit of parody actually appears to be true. I can see it playing out exactly as you wrote it.

Edit: Laager, I'm still licking my wounds over my stupidity regarding my inability to decipher your sarcasm-laden post from last weekend. Again, I submit apologies.

LOL really man it's perfectly fine. I really need to tone down my sarcasm sometimes and try to be less of a smartalec, even when it is in good fun, sometimes it just doesn't read well or come across as funny to others, especially on a message board. To be honest it took me until I was an adult to realize that I have kind of an off-beat sense of humor and many people just don't get it, and that's fine. Thank the good Lord that my kids get me, we have fun while most people are looking at us like we are crazy.

We need to try to get a bunch of us together for the O&W game.

 

[LaagerVol]

I respect this^^^
The past week and half.... I've been reevaluating this entire scenario. I bet you guys NEVER thought you'd hear me say this..... and I don't want you to get this twisted:

I have absolutely NOOOO problem with advocating for the relationship that my family has with Dooley and & previous staff. I won't defend that because you guys already know, but what I will say is that every relationship is different with every situation and coaching staff.

Using our own family as the example: Jason and our family adored the CDD and Staff, but AK didn't, and with losing seasons.... I clearly understand and I respect how many of you hardcore fans feel about them as COACHES, but it doesn't give you the right to keep bashing and dragging him through the mud; he's gone now.

What I dont necessarily agree with is saying that UT may have lost out on some big time recruits had CDD stayed. That can be said in every school and situation that goes through a transition. This recruiting process is a BEAST of its own. I know of a few recruits that didn't entertain to UT because of the transition, so that argument goes both directions. All of these recruiting decisions are emotionally charged.

You guys also know that I have been leary of this new staff until recently. Everything is built on the relationships that we build from the time a school offers. Again, using my family as the example: UT was one of the schools that didn't offer Jason until he had 30+; relationships that had been established with other universities,, etc etc etc... and we came to UT at the 20th hour of this process and it was like putting on a wedding dress... You know when it was the right one, and if a recruit is saying they didn't or would've done something under another tenior... i respect that too.... it's all in relationship.

And when we're listening, talking, chatting, tweeting, interviewing and updating FB status' pay attention to recruits personalities. You have recruits who are super stars because they're the best in high school; and then get the bench until their junior year in college... I'd much rather deal with a humble kid over an arrogant one. Because if they aren't humble now.... they will be after that paper is signed. This is one thing I taught ALL of my boys.

I said all that to say this y'all; we're NOT going to get everybody "WE" want as fans. Everybody makes mistakes CBJ included... Coaching and choosing the right kids for the program isn't an easy task. Especially when you're looking at hundreds of videos, trying to adhere to a demanding community of fans, transition a new staff, getting to know your new players, and uprooting your family from place to place. I couldn't do it, and I commend CBJ & staff for accepting the challenge, and I pray he makes all the right decisions, or we'll be here talking about buyouts again in another two or three years.

All we can do as fans is support the people who took on the challenge at whatever cost, and remember that us inside people... meaning.... families, staff and recruits are directly affected by your thoughts; and these message boards are being read. Just remember that it's somebody's kids entertaining you.

Let go VOLS

MZTERRY I've been accused of sucking up to you before and I'm ok with that because I LOVE that you say what you are thinking in an honest and sincere way. My favorite people in life are the ones who don't sugarcoat things and you know exactly where you stand with them.

With that said, I totally agree with you about it working both ways. Most of these kids that have committed early I truly believe we wouldn't have gotten with CDD, but on the other hand there are kids that we will miss out on that CDD would have gotten. Like you said, it's all about relationships. And I would much rather have the humble/hungry kid also.

My favorite part of your post is what you said about it being somebody's kid who is entertaining us. Sometimes we lose perspective when it comes to our "entertainment" and forget that these are real people we are cheering for, or bashing, or calling for them to be fired or whatever. I'm gonna try to do better and not be so quick to judge or call someone out. I think i do an ok job of not bashing the kids, I hope so anyway.

Hope to meet you at the O&W game & maybe get the croomster's autograph for my "mini-me".

EDIT* I fully believe that with the right D-coordinator hire last year Dooley would still be the coach of the Vols this year, for better or worse. And I would be supporting him if he were but I'm very happy to have CBJ as our leader.

 

[LaagerVol]

Dude, I said no such thing. I don't believe I ever said "intuition". What I said, is that I don't give a lot of credence to recruiting comments, of any kind, because "if very word is taken literally, over time, they become contradictory, self-defeating, and some are just flat out false."



Sr. said that it was unlikely Jr. would have signed if Dooley was still here.

Jr also said that every team was even (contradictory to Sr)

Jr also said that after a practice, he went from everybody being even to bleeding orange, shutting down his recruitment, and becoming an active recruiter for us (doesn't mesh well with the whole every team is even comment).

The point is that I don't put a lot of credence in ANY comments when it comes to recruiting. I certainly don't like cherry picking comments, giving them truth, while denying or dismissing other comments. Hell, I hated to even bring Mz Terry's comments into the discussion to point out that not every parent/recruit see Dooley in the light most in this thread have tried to paint of him.

What I do know, sans any contradictory comments, that a recruit who is a legacy, grows up a huge Vol fan, and lives in Knoxville, has a natural inclination to go to UT as opposed to a random recruit in North Carolina or a UGA legacy who lives in Athens, GA. That does not mean he was absolutely (or necessarily; in the logic sense) going to pick UT.

I don't understand what is so hard to comprehend about that. I don't know Jr or his father. I am sure most in here don't but go on their printed comments. I am merely pointing out the fallacies of taking every word as the Gospel. It is just the nature of recruiting (especially after a coaching change) and how recruiting is covered in the media.

Like I stated before, I love the way recruits have responded to CBJ. I love the way this recruiting process has started off. Hopefully, it will continue as the Butch era continues.

:mf_surrender: Agree to disagree. :hi:

 

[SmokinBob]

I respect this^^^
The past week and half.... I've been reevaluating this entire scenario. I bet you guys NEVER thought you'd hear me say this..... and I don't want you to get this twisted:

I have absolutely NOOOO problem with advocating for the relationship that my family has with Dooley and & previous staff. I won't defend that because you guys already know, but what I will say is that every relationship is different with every situation and coaching staff.

Using our own family as the example: Jason and our family adored the CDD and Staff, but AK didn't, and with losing seasons.... I clearly understand and I respect how many of you hardcore fans feel about them as COACHES, but it doesn't give you the right to keep bashing and dragging him through the mud; he's gone now.

What I dont necessarily agree with is saying that UT may have lost out on some big time recruits had CDD stayed. That can be said in every school and situation that goes through a transition. This recruiting process is a BEAST of its own. I know of a few recruits that didn't entertain to UT because of the transition, so that argument goes both directions. All of these recruiting decisions are emotionally charged.

You guys also know that I have been leary of this new staff until recently. Everything is built on the relationships that we build from the time a school offers. Again, using my family as the example: UT was one of the schools that didn't offer Jason until he had 30+; relationships that had been established with other universities,, etc etc etc... and we came to UT at the 20th hour of this process and it was like putting on a wedding dress... You know when it was the right one, and if a recruit is saying they didn't or would've done something under another tenior... i respect that too.... it's all in relationship.

And when we're listening, talking, chatting, tweeting, interviewing and updating FB status' pay attention to recruits personalities. You have recruits who are super stars because they're the best in high school; and then get the bench until their junior year in college... I'd much rather deal with a humble kid over an arrogant one. Because if they aren't humble now.... they will be after that paper is signed. This is one thing I taught ALL of my boys.

I said all that to say this y'all; we're NOT going to get everybody "WE" want as fans. Everybody makes mistakes CBJ included... Coaching and choosing the right kids for the program isn't an easy task. Especially when you're looking at hundreds of videos, trying to adhere to a demanding community of fans, transition a new staff, getting to know your new players, and uprooting your family from place to place. I couldn't do it, and I commend CBJ & staff for accepting the challenge, and I pray he makes all the right decisions, or we'll be here talking about buyouts again in another two or three years.

All we can do as fans is support the people who took on the challenge at whatever cost, and remember that us inside people... meaning.... families, staff and recruits are directly affected by your thoughts; and these message boards are being read. Just remember that it's somebody's kids entertaining you.

Let go VOLS

Thank you for your post - appreciate your perspective ! :hi: Go Vols!!! :salute:

 

[Oskie Volum]

Uh.... actually lets do just that. He grew up a UT fan, BUT, like his own father said .... He would not have signed with UT had Derek Dooley still been the coach.

Rather than argue with guys like me who like CBJ and recognize some of CDDs recruiting shortcomings, why don't you take it up with TKSr? He's the one who said it, not us. I promise you, if he had not said it, I would not bring it up.

Did he say "wouldn't have signed with UT" or "he didn't like Dooley". 2 different things.