Official "eat crow" because Butch was hired here thread

Trying the devils advocate role with ignorant folks never goes well man. Just to dumb to see anything other than what they know cause it makes their brain hurt. I find it funny too how they harp on recruit talk and disregard an actual players parent. They act as if every person gets along with everyone, no coach has ever lost an in state recruit, etc.



.

About as dumb as you disregarding this.

-Mariakis said that he and Bell both would go out of their way to call UT to set up relationship and very rarely would Dooley return a call. Bell or Mariakis never had to call other schools from the SEC or the rest of the country. They would keep in touch constantly, even the ones Bell had little interest in.

- Mariakis said Bell never wanted to be treated like a prima Donna, just wanted the respect from Dooley that guys like Saban, Meyer and others were giving him.

-Dooley never once came to watch Bell play, while the stands would be littered every week with top coaches from the rest of the country.

- Bell had given up on UT, they were off the radar completely until Butch showed up.
 
and this.


In a Times Free Press early-season poll of 37 prep coaches from southeast Tennessee, northwest Georgia and northeast Alabama, 32 gave Dooley and his staff a failing grade for recruiting rapport and overall communication and effectiveness. Those coaches admitted the lack of familiarity and comfort level in dealing with the UT staff directly affected the recruitment of any current or future prospects in their program.

"If Derek Dooley had stayed as their coach, I would've had a hard time advising any player to go there," current Hixson and former Rhea County coach Jason Fitzgerald said this past week. "That staff didn't follow up or return calls, and really I had no idea who even recruits our area for UT because I've never had one of their coaches come through my door.
 
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I said in my post that I was happy for his success here. I gave him credit.

The difference is I try to give context around here. Whether it is with Dooley (when everyone has their pitchforks) or Fulmer (when everyone is fapping).

What would we ever do around here without the wise old PKT giving us his "context"....
 
It would be pure speculation either way since he is no longer here.

I do think there is a high probability they were both coming here regardless of who the coach was.

I do think there is a high probability that you and a couple others on here are quite delusional, as both those players have stated from their own mouths that they would NOT be coming to UT if Dooley was still the coach. It's been stated many, many times and for the life of me I can't see how someone can argue against that??? Sheesh

TKjr and Hurd: We would not be going to UT if Dooley were still the coach.

PKT_VOL: Oh yes you would.

TKjr and Hurd: No, we really wouldn't.

PKT_VOL: Yes you would because you were coming to UT no matter who the coach was. I should know where you guys are going to college better than you do....

TKjr and Hurd (and all sane people): Whatever dude.
 
I tend to agree; in theory at least (about getting more time). The reality was that the team's spirit was broken which is enough for me to accept the firing and moving in a new direction. Now, everyone wants to blame Dooley for that. Although he wasn't perfect, given the condition the program was when he took over and the crap that when down that was out of his control, I think in theory he deserved more time.

At any rate, he will get another job if he wants one. He turned two programs around. Although, I think he has a natural personality to make a career as a TV analysis. I am thankful for his contributions here and wish him well in his future endeavors.

Someone PLEASE show me what two programs he "turned around"???
 
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Trying the devils advocate role with ignorant folks never goes well man. Just to dumb to see anything other than what they know cause it makes their brain hurt. I find it funny too how they harp on recruit talk and disregard an actual players parent. They act as if every person gets along with everyone, no coach has ever lost an in state recruit, etc.



It's not worth the discussion man. These people are just incapable of getting out of the "bash Dooley" box. I've said for a while that SmU would be a great fit for him if jones were to leave. Lots of factors makes it one IMO. If it were to open and harts son is still the AD there it'll be a very telling sign of how things between Dave hart and Dooley truly are IMO.



This isn't bashing CBJ, and saying he isn't a fine coach with potentional. But to me sharing championships, especially a four way tie, is not something to hang your hat on. That's just me though. I'm not a participation trophy baby.

Ignorant folks? The only thing regarding recruiting that anyone is arguing about with regards to PKT is that he seems to believe his "intuition" about recruiting trumps what the actual players and their parents have been publicly quoted as saying regarding Dooley and Jones. I'll go with the players and the parents. And yes I've read MZTerry's posts... got no problem there and can understand and respect that she really thought a lot of Dooley and his staff. But her example doesn't, in my mind, negate the situations with other recuits, namely Vonn Bell, TKJr and TKSr, Wharton, Hurd, etc. And I do consider Todd Kelly Sr, to be an "actual parent" by the way ... just because TKJr hasn't suited up for the Vols yet doesn't mean that TKSr doesn't exist....

To provide "proper context", I was all for Dooley's hire after the crap with Kiffin. Loved his pedigree (father Vince), wasn't crazy about his lack of success at La Tech, but I loved that he was an SEC guy who "got it", in my opinion. I was, despite his abysmal record, in his corner until the Missouri game. That's when I finally threw my hands up in disgust, and of course, the vandy beatdown sealed the deal. I've never thought Dooley was a bad guy nor have I seen the need to "bash him". I've simply read from multiple sources, heard from numerous past players and recruits, some bad things about his recruiting and how he ran the program in retrospect. His lack of recruitment of 5 Star stud recruits who grew up wanting to play for the Vols in his back yard (Bell and Hurd) was UNACCEPTABLE. This dovetailed with the reports from numerous High school coaches throughout Eastern and Middle Tennessee (don't know about West Tn) that he had little or no relationship with them and they, in some cases, could barely get him to return their calls, much less visit their schools and do his due diligence. The proof of this comes from a majority of the top players in Tennessee choosing to go elsewhere during his tenure.

Finally, your comment about CBJ having "potential" and criticizing him for his shared conference titles? Really? I'll take a guy who finishes first 4 out of 6 seasons, in 2 different conferences, with back to back 10 win seasons and a Big East Coach of the Year award on his resume ... beats the hell out of a coach with a .459 winning percentage in the WAC and a .417 winning percentage in the SEC who never won anything. :whistling:
 
I never implied that he didn't like CBJ better than Dooley. In fact, I think it is clear that he does.

I just said, let's not act like he was not a UT lean regardless of who was coaching.

That's the thing. He was NOT a UT lean if CDD was coaching. HE SAID THAT!! He was a UT lean AFTER Dooley was fired.
 
Trying the devils advocate role with ignorant folks never goes well man. Just to dumb to see anything other than what they know cause it makes their brain hurt. I find it funny too how they harp on recruit talk and disregard an actual players parent. They act as if every person gets along with everyone, no coach has ever lost an in state recruit, etc.



It's not worth the discussion man. These people are just incapable of getting out of the "bash Dooley" box. I've said for a while that SmU would be a great fit for him if jones were to leave. Lots of factors makes it one IMO. If it were to open and harts son is still the AD there it'll be a very telling sign of how things between Dave hart and Dooley truly are IMO.



This isn't bashing CBJ, and saying he isn't a fine coach with potentional. But to me sharing championships, especially a four way tie, is not something to hang your hat on. That's just me though. I'm not a participation trophy baby.

The ONLY people disregarding players or recruits parents comments in this thread are you and PKT. You guys are the ones disregarding TK sr's comment's.

And my comments have zero to do with bashing Dooley. I supported him until it was very obvious that he wasn't going to get this turned around. Because that's how I am. I support the team and coaches until there is definitive reason not to.
 
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I do think there is a high probability that you and a couple others on here are quite delusional, as both those players have stated from their own mouths that they would NOT be coming to UT if Dooley was still the coach. It's been stated many, many times and for the life of me I can't see how someone can argue against that??? Sheesh

TKjr and Hurd: We would not be going to UT if Dooley were still the coach.

PKT_VOL: Oh yes you would.

TKjr and Hurd: No, we really wouldn't.

PKT_VOL: Yes you would because you were coming to UT no matter who the coach was. I should know where you guys are going to college better than you do....

TKjr and Hurd (and all sane people): Whatever dude.

I laughed out loud... This is a damn good post. It's gold.

I laughed because all comedy has a large amount of truth to it. Sadly, your bit of parody actually appears to be true. I can see it playing out exactly as you wrote it.

Edit: Laager, I'm still licking my wounds over my stupidity regarding my inability to decipher your sarcasm-laden post from last weekend. Again, I submit apologies.
 
Finally, your comment about CBJ having "potential" and criticizing him for his shared conference titles? Really? I'll take a guy who finishes first 4 out of 6 seasons

If he finished first, he would have been in a BCS bowl, no?
 
Trying the devils advocate role with ignorant folks never goes well man. Just to dumb to see anything other than what they know cause it makes their brain hurt. I find it funny too how they harp on recruit talk and disregard an actual players parent. They act as if every person gets along with everyone, no coach has ever lost an in state recruit, etc.



It's not worth the discussion man. These people are just incapable of getting out of the "bash Dooley" box. I've said for a while that SmU would be a great fit for him if jones were to leave. Lots of factors makes it one IMO. If it were to open and harts son is still the AD there it'll be a very telling sign of how things between Dave hart and Dooley truly are IMO.



This isn't bashing CBJ, and saying he isn't a fine coach with potentional. But to me sharing championships, especially a four way tie, is not something to hang your hat on. That's just me though. I'm not a participation trophy baby.

You guys do know the definition of "devil's advocate", right?

One who argues against a cause or position, not as a committed opponent but simply for the sake of argument or to determine the validity of the cause or position.

So do you guys believe what you are arguing for or not?

If you don't believe what you are offering, and just want to discuss for the sake of argument, then you can't fault us for not "getting it".

If you don't believe what you are offering, and just want to determine the validity of our position, then stop ignoring the facts we are giving to support our position.

If you do believe what you are offering, then own the drivel and stop calling it devil's advocacy.
 
The ONLY people disregarding players or recruits parents comments in this thread are you and PKT. You guys are the ones disregarding TK sr's comment's.

And my comments have zero to do with bashing Dooley. I supported him until it was very obvious that he wasn't going to get this turned around. Because that's how I am. I support the team and coaches until there is definitive reason not to.

I respect this^^^
The past week and half.... I've been reevaluating this entire scenario. I bet you guys NEVER thought you'd hear me say this..... and I don't want you to get this twisted:

I have absolutely NOOOO problem with advocating for the relationship that my family has with Dooley and & previous staff. I won't defend that because you guys already know, but what I will say is that every relationship is different with every situation and coaching staff.

Using our own family as the example: Jason and our family adored the CDD and Staff, but AK didn't, and with losing seasons.... I clearly understand and I respect how many of you hardcore fans feel about them as COACHES, but it doesn't give you the right to keep bashing and dragging him through the mud; he's gone now.

What I dont necessarily agree with is saying that UT may have lost out on some big time recruits had CDD stayed. That can be said in every school and situation that goes through a transition. This recruiting process is a BEAST of its own. I know of a few recruits that didn't entertain to UT because of the transition, so that argument goes both directions. All of these recruiting decisions are emotionally charged.

You guys also know that I have been leary of this new staff until recently. Everything is built on the relationships that we build from the time a school offers. Again, using my family as the example: UT was one of the schools that didn't offer Jason until he had 30+; relationships that had been established with other universities,, etc etc etc... and we came to UT at the 20th hour of this process and it was like putting on a wedding dress... You know when it was the right one, and if a recruit is saying they didn't or would've done something under another tenior... i respect that too.... it's all in relationship.

And when we're listening, talking, chatting, tweeting, interviewing and updating FB status' pay attention to recruits personalities. You have recruits who are super stars because they're the best in high school; and then get the bench until their junior year in college... I'd much rather deal with a humble kid over an arrogant one. Because if they aren't humble now.... they will be after that paper is signed. This is one thing I taught ALL of my boys.

I said all that to say this y'all; we're NOT going to get everybody "WE" want as fans. Everybody makes mistakes CBJ included... Coaching and choosing the right kids for the program isn't an easy task. Especially when you're looking at hundreds of videos, trying to adhere to a demanding community of fans, transition a new staff, getting to know your new players, and uprooting your family from place to place. I couldn't do it, and I commend CBJ & staff for accepting the challenge, and I pray he makes all the right decisions, or we'll be here talking about buyouts again in another two or three years.

All we can do as fans is support the people who took on the challenge at whatever cost, and remember that us inside people... meaning.... families, staff and recruits are directly affected by your thoughts; and these message boards are being read. Just remember that it's somebody's kids entertaining you.

Let go VOLS
 
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i'm sure people will argue, but I don't know how anyone doesn't read the post above and just nod in mutual agreement and respect. Slinging mud and making this stuff personal against coaches who failed is worthless at best and detrimental at worst.
 
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I respect this^^^
The past week and half.... I've been reevaluating this entire scenario. I bet you guys NEVER thought you'd hear me say this..... and I don't want you to get this twisted:

I have absolutely NOOOO problem with advocating for the relationship that my family has with Dooley and & previous staff. I won't defend that because you guys already know, but what I will say is that every relationship is different with every situation and coaching staff.

Using our own family as the example: Jason and our family adored the CDD and Staff, but AK didn't, and with losing seasons.... I clearly understand and I respect how many of you hardcore fans feel about them as COACHES, but it doesn't give you the right to keep bashing and dragging him through the mud; he's gone now.

What I dont necessarily agree with is saying that UT may have lost out on some big time recruits had CDD stayed. That can be said in every school and situation that goes through a transition. This recruiting process is a BEAST of its own. I know of a few recruits that didn't entertain to UT because of the transition, so that argument goes both directions. All of these recruiting decisions are emotionally charged.

You guys also know that I have been leary of this new staff until recently. Everything is built on the relationships that we build from the time a school offers. Again, using my family as the example: UT was one of the schools that didn't offer Jason until he had 30+; relationships that had been established with other universities,, etc etc etc... and we came to UT at the 20th hour of this process and it was like putting on a wedding dress... You know when it was the right one, and if a recruit is saying they didn't or would've done something under another tenior... i respect that too.... it's all in relationship.

And when we're listening, talking, chatting, tweeting, interviewing and updating FB status' pay attention to recruits personalities. You have recruits who are super stars because they're the best in high school; and then get the bench until their junior year in college... I'd much rather deal with a humble kid over an arrogant one. Because if they aren't humble now.... they will be after that paper is signed. This is one thing I taught ALL of my boys.

I said all that to say this y'all; we're NOT going to get everybody "WE" want as fans. Everybody makes mistakes CBJ included... Coaching and choosing the right kids for the program isn't an easy task. Especially when you're looking at hundreds of videos, trying to adhere to a demanding community of fans, transition a new staff, getting to know your new players, and uprooting your family from place to place. I couldn't do it, and I commend CBJ & staff for accepting the challenge, and I pray he makes all the right decisions, or we'll be here talking about buyouts again in another two or three years.

All we can do as fans is support the people who took on the challenge at whatever cost, and remember that us inside people... meaning.... families, staff and recruits are directly affected by your thoughts; and these message boards are being read. Just remember that it's somebody's kids entertaining you.

Let go VOLS

MZTERRY, well said in my opinion.

Please note the context of some of our arguments here in this thread. I can't speak for anyone but myself, so I'll speak for myself.

My intent here is not to tear CDD down. (Personally, I feel it was time for a change and supported the change. However, I was also in the band that protected CDD's right to have the time to turn things around before making the change. Anyway...)

The intent is not to trash CDD. I don't know who all he may have pulled, and he may have pulled a top 5 class. the intent is to defend the that CBJ is doing in recruiting so far. CBJ has landed some big names from recruits that have stated they would not have come to UT before CBJ turned them. We should all congratulate CBJ for those recruits, as opposed to minimizing his work.

Again, this isn't to bash CDD, but to support CBJ.
 
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MZTERRY, well said in my opinion.

Please note the context of some of our arguments here in this thread. I can't speak for anyone but myself, so I'll speak for myself.

My intent here is not to tear CDD down. (Personally, I feel it was time for a change and supported the change. However, I was also in the band that protected CDD's right to have the time to turn things around before making the change. Anyway...)

The intent is not to trash CDD. I don't know who all he may have pulled, and he may have pulled a top 5 class. the intent is to defend the that CBJ is doing in recruiting so far. CBJ has landed some big names from recruits that have stated they would not have come to UT before CBJ turned them. We should all congratulate CBJ for those recruits, as opposed to minimizing his work.

Again, this isn't to bash CDD, but to support CBJ.

I said the same thing you did, and my post wasn't about DOOLEY at all. It's just about supporting who we have and the rest doesn't matter, but since you opened the door!

JASON CROOM - 4* ALL AMERICAN
LATROY LEWIS -4*
JUSTIN KING
KENNY BYNUM
GEORGE BULLOCK - ALL AMERICAN
NATE PETERMAN - ALL AMERICAN
DRAE' BOWLES - ALL AMERICAN

Dooley wasn't a total bust in his choosings... just saying.

CBJ's recruiting is the bomb right now! I don't disagree, but it goes back to what I said originally; personalities play into all of this.... Maybe CBJ got kids that luv him and may have missed some because they didn't. We don't know. All I'm saying is he's here now am I'm going to support what he's doing.

SPEAKING A PARENT:I wasn't on the CBJ bandwagon until recently. I had to set the fan inside me lay by the waistside until i was sure he was the person / people I wanted around my son. Transition puts the current families back into recruiting TRUST ME Don't think transferring Croomster out of there was not in the front of my head..... IT WAS, but when Croomster called me a few weeks back and gave Azzani the compliment of the world, I began to relax and rethink some stuff. You don't ever want to pick up the phone and hear your kid stressed over some BS. So we had to give this transition a chance. I was hell bent on not coming to Knoxville until season. CBJ and I had to have a conversation about my concerns that I won't post, but uhhh yeah.....everything happening isn't on these boards. y'all remember that!!! :jpshakehead:

hell I got bashed 100k when Jason picked up that UT hat off the table in 2011!! It was my fault he didn't choose the other school.... he was arrogant and didn't want him anyway... etc ... for those of you who follow me; can tell you that story.

So this isnt about CDD CBJ Phil or whomever else past or present... All I want you guys to understand that this process of recruiting of 100% emotiionally charged. I have a good friendship with many who post here, and some folks hate me... emotionally charged.. that's all i'm saying, but I get where you're coming from too.

:thumbsup:
 
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I said the same thing you did, and my post wasn't about DOOLEY at all. It's just about supporting who we have and the rest doesn't matter, but since you opened the door!

JASON CROOM - 4* ALL AMERICAN
LATROY LEWIS -4*
JUSTIN KING
KENNY BYNUM
GEORGE BULLOCK - ALL AMERICAN
NATE PETERMAN - ALL AMERICAN
DRAE' BOWLES - ALL AMERICAN

Dooley wasn't a total bust in his choosings... just saying.

CBJ's recruiting is the bomb right now! I don't disagree, but it goes back to what I said originally; personalities play into all of this.... Maybe CBJ got kids that luv him and may have missed some because they didn't. We don't know. All I'm saying is he's here now am I'm going to support what he's doing.

SPEAKING A PARENT:I wasn't on the CBJ bandwagon until recently. I had to set the fan inside me lay by the waistside until i was sure he was the person / people I wanted around my son. Transition puts the current families back into recruiting TRUST ME Don't think transferring Croomster out of there was not in the front of my head..... IT WAS, but when Croomster called me a few weeks back and gave Azzani the compliment of the world, I began to relax and rethink some stuff. You don't ever want to pick up the phone and hear your kid stressed over some BS. So we had to give this transition a chance. I was hell bent on not coming to Knoxville until season. CBJ and I had to have a conversation about my concerns that I won't post, but uhhh yeah.....everything happening isn't on these boards. y'all remember that!!! :jpshakehead:

hell I got bashed 100k when Jason picked up that UT hat off the table in 2011!! It was my fault he didn't choose the other school.... he was arrogant and didn't want him anyway... etc ... for those of you who follow me; can tell you that story.

So this isnt about CDD CBJ Phil or whomever else past or present... All I want you guys to understand that this process of recruiting of 100% emotiionally charged. I have a good friendship with many who post here, and some folks hate me... emotionally charged.. that's all i'm saying, but I get where you're coming from too.

:thumbsup:

We are in agreement, MZTERRY. I just didn't want you to misinterpret motives (at least the ones I can speak for).

I have respected your position and circumstances and still do.
 
We are in agreement, MZTERRY. I just didn't want you to misinterpret motives (at least the ones I can speak for).

I have respected your position and circumstances and still do.

It's cool. It just frustrating of the continual.. CDD bash sessions... He's NOT here... move forward:)
 
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It's cool. It just frustrating of the continual.. CDD bash sessions... He's NOT here... move forward:)

I agree, but like OrangeCrush was alluding to...when comparing the outstanding job that CBJ is doing so far the easiest comparison to make is to the predecessor. It seems we are in very good hands and I'm an excited posiVol! GBO!

P.S. Thanks for the excellent info and insights you bring.
 
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Being critical is what makes us human. Dooley himself was an avid historian and would probably agree that hiring him was a mistake that UT should avoid in the future. Bashing and being critical are not the same. He's your friend, I get it. He was a lousy coach to me, surely you understand my side.
 
I agree, but like OrangeCrush was alluding to...when comparing the outstanding job that CBJ is doing so far the easiest comparison to make is to the predecessor. It seems we are in very good hands and I'm an excited posiVol! GBO!

P.S. Thanks for the excellent info and insights you bring.

ok.. cool and also take this into consideration.

when we're speaking of the recruiting and commits JUST under CBJ; let's break down the list into two sections. (1) the ones offered by CDD and saved by CBJ ( 2) and CBJ offers & commits for 2013.... ONLY

What do we come up with? I went through the list, but I can't answer this off the top of my head, but last look there were quite a few, so technically, until next year 2014... will be 100% CBJ class then we'll know for sure whether he can recruit or not. Right now we know he can save
 
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Being critical is what makes us human. Dooley himself was an avid historian and would probably agree that hiring him was a mistake that UT should avoid in the future. Bashing and being critical are not the same. He's your friend, I get it. He was a lousy coach to me, surely you understand my side.
i do:thumbsup:
 

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