Oh Wonderful! Flu Vaccine May Not Work

#102
#102
Question for you, kiddiedoc.

My two youngest kids have been diagnosed with the flu today and I have not had a flu shot. I have been WAY exposed to the flu virus because we are an affectionate family. Is it a bad idea to try to get vaccinated now? Will it do me any good?
 
#103
#103
vader said:
Question for you, kiddiedoc.

My two youngest kids have been diagnosed with the flu today and I have not had a flu shot. I have been WAY exposed to the flu virus because we are an affectionate family. Is it a bad idea to try to get vaccinated now? Will it do me any good?
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You're doomed.
 
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#104
#104
jamesd1628 said:
I would call that ironic considering the extent to which the vaccine campaign as a whole, not to mention the entirety of your post, is based on fear mongering.
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It's actually not fear mongering when I present scientific facts based on decades of research and professional experience. The vaccine campaign is in no way based on fear tactics, but rather the prevention of life-threatening illnesses, and it has done more for global health than perhaps anything short of the invention of antibiotics.

Would you like to argue that? Start with mortality statistics.
 
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#105
#105
vader said:
Question for you, kiddiedoc.

My two youngest kids have been diagnosed with the flu today and I have not had a flu shot. I have been WAY exposed to the flu virus because we are an affectionate family. Is it a bad idea to try to get vaccinated now? Will it do me any good?
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No good for this go-round, but could help if exposed to another strain later in the season. Antiviral prophylaxis is an option, though.
 
#107
#107
kiddiedoc said:
It's actually not fear mongering when I present scientific facts based on decades of research and professional experience. The vaccine campaign is in no way based on fear tactics, but rather the prevention of life-threatening illnesses, and it has done more for global health than perhaps anything short of the invention of antibiotics.

Would you like to argue that? Start with mortality statistics.
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Which ones? The CDC's amalgamated and incoherent computer model guestimates? Their figures are so inconclusive and incomprehensible that even they seem to be unconvinced by them. Why else would they take so much time explaining their calculated guesses? Of course, they do that because their estimates have been under criticial attack for years.
 
#108
#108
A recent study estimated that vaccines have saved the lives of over 700,000 children in the past 20 years and prevented over 300 MILLION pediatric illnesses.

"Routine immunization has prevented more than 21 million hospitalizations, saving nearly $295 billion in direct costs (which include the costs of treating an infection) and $1.38 trillion in total societal costs (which include things like lost productivity due to disability and early death)"
 
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#110
#110
I really don't understand the whole vaccine-fear stuff. I've been vaccinated against everything under the sun and then some including anthrax shots and smallpox. Other military folk have been too. Millions of people all around the globe. I don't see how it's related to any of the crap that's claimed.
 
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#111
#111
jamesd1628 said:
Which ones? The CDC's amalgamated and incoherent computer model guestimates? Their figures are so inconclusive and incomprehensible that even they seem to be unconvinced by them. Why else would they take so much time explaining their calculated guesses? Of course, they do that because their estimates have been under criticial attack for years.
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Please. How about we round off the numbers:

Polio, HiB, measles, whooping cough, tetanus, hepatitis B, and varicella used to kill a bunch of people, now they don't.

Invasive Pneumococcal disease continues to decline in children.

Immunized people have much a lower chance of contracting the flu and of suffering complications including death.

Disagree?
 
#113
#113
#114
#114
kiddiedoc said:
Polio, HiB, measles, whooping cough, tetanus, hepatitis B, and varicella used to kill a bunch of people, now they don't.
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Well, let’s at least try to focus on one of these at a time, for clarity. Say polio, since it’s the first on your list. You state: “Polio . . . used to kill a bunch of people, now [it doesn’t].” While that statement is true, it says nothing about why it’s true, i.e., it says nothing about whether the polio vaccine is the reason for the drop in rates of polio. Significant evidence suggests that the polio vaccine had little to do with the drop in polio rates. Consider the following:

- Polio rates decreased dramatically across the US and Europe, over several decades, before any vaccine was introduced or widely used
- In several European countries where no vaccine was ever introduced, the polio rates dropped to todays nearly non-existent rates on their own, with no vaccine
- Following introduction of the polio vaccine, the definition of polio was modified to make it much harder to be diagnosed with polio, thereby inflating the supposed effectiveness of the polio vaccine (testified to by Dr. Bernard Greenberg, chairman of the Committee on Evaluation and Standards of the American Public Health Association, in Congressional hearings in 1962)
- At no time after the introduction of the polio vaccine was the decline in the incidence of polio greater than before vaccine introduction.

Furthermore, it would appear that the polio vaccine even causes polio in many cases:

- In the US, polio rates skyrocketed in years immediately following the introduction of mass inoculations, usually by hundreds of percentage points
- Quote from Jonas Salk, inventor of the polio vaccine: ““When you inoculate children with a polio vaccine you don’t sleep well for two or three weeks.”
- More from Salk: “In 1976, Dr. Jonas Salk, creator of the killed-virus vaccine used in the 1950s, testified that the live-virus vaccine (used almost exclusively in the U.S. from the early 1960s to 2000) was the “principal if not sole cause” of all reported polio cases in the U.S. since 1961.”
- In 1992, the Federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) published an admission that the live-virus vaccine had become the dominant cause of polio in the United States. In fact, according to CDC figures, every case of polio in the U.S. since 1979 was caused by the oral polio vaccine. (see CDC Admitted Polio Outbreaks after 1979 Were Vaccine Associated - CNN iReport)

All of that evidence (including source material) and much more can be obtained from any number of web sites. I’m not going to waste my time dragging citations over to this site; if someone is curious, the information is readily available, with original source material.


kiddiedoc said:
Immunized people have much a lower chance of contracting the flu and of suffering complications including death.
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I don’t think even the CDC would make such a bold statement. Have you read their information page regarding the flu vaccine? In case you haven’t, here it is: Vaccine Effectiveness - How Well Does the Flu Vaccine Work? | Seasonal Influenza (Flu) | CDC. I’ve never seen such non-committal double-talk in all my life. Of course, they really have no choice considering how many studies show that the flu vaccine provides little, if any, benefit. You could pull up a dozen studies showing that it’s effective in some limited circumstance, and I could pull up just as many showing its ineffectiveness in others. That really kind of puts the CDC in a bind as to what they can say on their web site.

For me, the bottom line is this: if you’re going to inject me or, more importantly, my children with some foreign substance, the burden lies on you to convince me that the benefit outweighs the risks. In my view, that burden is far from being met.
 
#115
#115
Well, let’s at least try to focus on one of these at a time, for clarity. Say polio, since it’s the first on your list. You state: “Polio . . . used to kill a bunch of people, now [it doesn’t].” While that statement is true, it says nothing about why it’s true, i.e., it says nothing about whether the polio vaccine is the reason for the drop in rates of polio. Significant evidence suggests that the polio vaccine had little to do with the drop in polio rates. Consider the following:

- Polio rates decreased dramatically across the US and Europe, over several decades, before any vaccine was introduced or widely used
Click to expand...

Incorrect. Polio rates in the U.S. surged in 1952 to nearly 58,000 cases, the worst outbreak in the nation's history. Average pre-vaccine rates were 35,000 cases per year. The vaccine was made available to the public in 1955, and by 1962 there were only 910 cases. The U.S. has been polio-free since 1979.

As I previously described, an even more amazing drop can be seen in HiB infections after the vaccine.

Measles? Gone. (except, interestingly, recently in areas where vaccination rates have dropped)

Mumps? Gone.

Rubella? Gone.

Pertussis? Gone. (again, except in some areas where immunity has waned)

Invasive pneumococcus? Much improved, esp with the newer 13-valent vaccine.

Chicken pox? Almost unheard of, in only one generation.

H1N1 pandemic? Ended within weeks.

*******

(On the Salk/live virus discussion: yes, the Sabin oral vaccine had the potential to mutate back to wild type virus and is no longer used in the U.S. Inactivated vaccines can NOT cause disease, as there is no living organism to infect the body)
 
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#116
#116
I'm just incredibly thankful that I can provide protection for the children in my care. It must have been so much more difficult to be a Pediatrician when mortality from these vaccine-preventable diseases was a real thing that you had to face in your practice. For those unaware, this is what Polio looked like:
 

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#117
#117
kiddiedoc said:
I was seeing multiple kids with H1N1 almost every day. Those cases disappeared within a couple weeks of vaccination. We had no serious vaccine events in the entire office of 3 docs and thousands of kids.
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I need to take my family to get the vaccine. I have 3 daughters. 11,4, and almost 2. Should we get mist or shot?
 
#118
#118
kiddiedoc said:
Incorrect. Polio rates in the U.S. surged in 1952 to nearly 58,000 cases, the worst outbreak in the nation's history. Average pre-vaccine rates were 35,000 cases per year. The vaccine was made available to the public in 1955, and by 1962 there were only 910 cases. The U.S. has been polio-free since 1979.
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You're making the same mistake you did the first time. You're focusing on the timeframe during which and after the vaccine was introduced and ignoring the 30 years before that (exactly what the CDC likes to do). In the decades before the 1950s , the incidence of polio had already dropped significantly, before any vaccine was available. And how do you explain polio being eradicated in countries that never used a polio vaccine?

kiddiedoc said:
Measles? Gone. (except, interestingly, recently in areas where vaccination rates have dropped)

Mumps? Gone.

Rubella? Gone.

Pertussis? Gone. (again, except in some areas where immunity has waned)

Invasive pneumococcus? Much improved, esp with the newer 13-valent vaccine.

Chicken pox? Almost unheard of, in only one generation.

H1N1 pandemic? Ended within weeks.
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The same basic scenario applies to these as it does to polio: they may be gone or greatly reduced, but do we have the vaccine to thank for that? How do you ignore what was already happening to these diseases before the vaccine was introduced? I find the measles graph to be very interesting.

2i6jw38.jpg
 
#119
#119
jamesd1628 said:
You're making the same mistake you did the first time. You're focusing on the timeframe during which and after the vaccine was introduced and ignoring the 30 years before that (exactly what the CDC likes to do). In the decades before the 1950s , the incidence of polio had already dropped significantly, before any vaccine was available. And how do you explain polio being eradicated in countries that never used a polio vaccine?



The same basic scenario applies to these as it does to polio: they may be gone or greatly reduced, but do we have the vaccine to thank for that? How do you ignore what was already happening to these diseases before the vaccine was introduced? I find the measles graph to be very interesting.

2i6jw38.jpg
Click to expand...

The vaccine, availability of the vaccine, and education are all to thank for the removal of polio and others.

Those mortality rates coincide with the ushering in of the modern industrial stage of development in the US around 1920, which includes major medical advances, transportation, and living conditions.
 
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#120
#120
VOLatile said:
The vaccine, availability of the vaccine, and education are all to thank for the removal of polio and others.

Those mortality rates coincide with the ushering in of the modern industrial stage of development in the US around 1920, which includes major medical advances, transportation, and living conditions.
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So what, then, did the vaccine do?
 
#122
#122
kiddiedoc said:
Pertussis? Gone. (again, except in some areas where immunity has waned)
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A 35-year-old friend of ours up in DC has had whooping cough for almost three months. What happens to the anti-vaccine idiots and their children is just Darwinism; vaya con Dios. What's unforgivable is that they're compromising herd immunity for the rest of us.
 
#123
#123
Vercingetorix said:
A 35-year-old friend of ours up in DC has had whooping cough for almost three months. What happens to the anti-vaccine idiots and their children is just Darwinism; vaya con Dios. What's unforgivable is that they're compromising herd immunity for the rest of us.
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Amen.
 
#124
#124
Vercingetorix said:
A 35-year-old friend of ours up in DC has had whooping cough for almost three months. What happens to the anti-vaccine idiots and their children is just Darwinism; vaya con Dios. What's unforgivable is that they're compromising herd immunity for the rest of us.
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Whooping Cough Back With a Vengeance in California - ABC News

California is again the the grips of a whooping cough outbreak, and this time it's even worse, according to the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. The state is facing its worst outbreak in 70 years and has nearly 1,000 more cases than it did in 2010. As of Nov. 26, the state had 9,935 reported cases.
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