Ok let's say we concede the fact that

[rjd970]

I think we are where everybody thought we would be as of right now. We won the gms we were suppose to and even beat a ranked SEC tm. If we can finish out with 2 more wins and maybe a possible bowl win then Butch and his staff has done one hell of a job in my book.

A lot of people were calling the AU game a win before the season, and Mizzou a toss-up. Mainly based on the fact that AU didn't win a single conference game last year. Neither one of those were close. CGM is a ridiculously good coach, or CBJ is under performing.

Out of UGA, UF, and USC, personally, I was calling for only USC as a possible upset.

I certainly don't think CBJ should be fired, I think he has done as well as can be expected. Nobody thought AU would have the turnaround they did. Existing talent and advantageous recruiting for your system can only carry a turnaround so far. The question still begs how a winless conference team from a year ago is 60 minutes away from playing for the conference title.

Contrary to what most on here think, and aside from the attacks of being stupid from some on here, I think it is a very valid question. Simple fact remains that CBJ and CGM are first year coach peers this year, and CGM has done more.

 

[jkleno]

Is it possible that there are reasons other than coaching for the "decline"? Such as depth?
It's obvious that production has fallen off but if it was there before the last three games did the kids unlearn what was taught? Did the coaches suddenly stop coaching? No.

Another explanation and a very logical one is that the team is exhausted both mentally and physically because of a lack of depth. I have seen somewhere that we only have 65 or 67 scholarship players due to players leaving , being dismissed, academically ineligible, etc, over the last three years as a result of the coaching changes instead of the 85 on other teams. Because of that would our starters have played more reps than other teams players? Couple that with the incredibly brutal, physical schedule we have had and it might suggest our players bodies may be broken and exhausted, and no matter how well you're coached you won't perform at the speed of someone more rested.

Southern Cal has fewer scholarship players (@50) than we do and Coach O has them on a 5 game Pac 12 win streak. Simply, more talent than CBJ has to work with. CBJ has met my expectations for year 1 if we beat Vandy and Ky.

 

[volnpowell]

Who have the Vols lost to that they weren't supposed to? They actually beat a ranked team & have a chance to make a bowl game. Most of you clowns would ***** if you were hung with a new rope (not a bad idea for some)

Nm, not worth it.

 

[fade route]

Safe to say that Butch is being given less grace in his first year than Dooley was in his, yet most agree that Butch is or will be a far better coach than Dools. VN is truly bipolar.

 

[Jake]

When will you be ready to make a judgement?

Year three

 

[Jake]

Safe to say that Butch is being given less grace in his first year than Dooley was in his, yet most agree that Butch is or will be a far better coach than Dools. VN is truly bipolar.

Totally bipolar

 

[volfan411]

Safe to say that Butch is being given less grace in his first year than Dooley was in his, yet most agree that Butch is or will be a far better coach than Dools. VN is truly bipolar.

I find it ironic that the fiercest defenders of Dools are the loudest critics of Jones.

 

[iluvsmesumdooley]

Looking forward to see what the pumpers say if Vandy wins. "But…but…but they beat UGa and UF! They are very strong!"

 

[TucsonVol]

Who have the Vols lost to that they weren't supposed to? They actually beat a ranked team & have a chance to make a bowl game. Most of you clowns would ***** if you were hung with a new rope (not a bad idea for some)

Let's see if you have the same attitude at the end of the season.....

 

[volfan411]

Looking forward to see what the pumpers say if Vandy wins. "But…but…but they beat UGa and UF! They are very strong!"

Probably make the same excuses you made for Dooley except it will just be one game you had to do it for 3 years.

 

[RonBnTennessee]

Of all the things we need, the most obvious is DEPTH!

 

[BigOrangeTrain]

When your first argument is based on the comparison between UT's situation to a team that just won a National title, had one losing season, and just hired their former offensive coordinator that pulled in high recruiting classes that were tailored to his scheme... Trust me. It failed. Brilliantly. To quote your OP in this thread... Let's just concede it.

As hard as you are rooting around for an argument that will stick, it seems you have some emotional investment in the idea that our staff sucks.

:hi:

Excellent post. :good!:

 

[Jake]

This team hasn't regressed. They lost to better teams the past 3 weeks. I'll concede that they might have been intimidated by Alabama but that red team was 100 times better than ours. Fact!

Ultimately, if your expectations are not in order than you will be very dissapointed in the results. And some are stretching that into things like "regression" and "giving up." We are where we are in this rebuilding process and Butch has shown that there is light at the end of the tunnel. We all hope that Butch can get us out of the tunnel as quickly as possible but we are in the tunnel none the less.

Yep...this and we are so beat up and demoralized by the frustration after the Bama game, it's easy to get down. IMO, this season, we showed some signs of players buying into the coach and his vision...and the recruiting is obvious. We should show some signs of improved progress next year in terms of cohesion. Then by year three...it will be fair to judge whether we are going in the right direction.

 

[BigOrangeTrain]

Looking forward to see what the pumpers say if Vandy wins. "But…but…but they beat UGa and UF! They are very strong!"

Looking forward to see what you're going to say after we win.

 

[Jake]

Of all the things we need, the most obvious is DEPTH!

And speed

 

[CJBlaze]

I am not sure I have seen anyone who has. Those trying to avoid any and all criticism of the coaches try to claim otherwise...

Me either sjt18.I came into this season expecting 6-6.With wins coming against Auburn&Ky.With our best possible upset being Sc.I expected losses to Or, Fl, Ga, Al,Mo&Vandy.Of course nobody saw Auburn improving like they did. So looks like we'll end up 5-7.Hopefully I'll be wrong about Vandy & end up at 6-6.No doubt Jones walked into a tough job.Little talent and 0 depth. I did however expect to see steady improvement.The losses I expected to be more competitive. Didn't expect to get curb stomped! Jones I think is gonna be a good one. He may have to make some staff changes tho.

 

[Boca Vol]

Safe to say that Butch is being given less grace in his first year than Dooley was in his, yet most agree that Butch is or will be a far better coach than Dools. VN is truly bipolar.

Go back to the off-season and look at the 1000's of threds that mentioned Butch getting it, the team buying in 100%, this is an improved team, and on & on.

Every cliche thrown out: Team 117, Brick by Brick, etc. was met with intense enthusiasm by the fanbase.

The bottom line is the talent isn't there and the schedule was brutal. What most people wasn't expecting was to get hammered in the losses to Oregon, Bama, Mizzou, and Auburn.

 

[titansvolsfaninga]

Me either sjt18.I came into this season expecting 6-6.With wins coming against Auburn&Ky.With our best possible upset being Sc.I expected losses to Or, Fl, Ga, Al,Mo&Vandy.Of course nobody saw Auburn improving like they did. So looks like we'll end up 5-7.Hopefully I'll be wrong about Vandy & end up at 6-6.No doubt Jones walked into a tough job.Little talent and 0 depth. I did however expect to see steady improvement.The losses I expected to be more competitive. Didn't expect to get curb stomped! Jones I think is gonna be a good one. He may have to make some staff changes tho.

The only reason we didn't get curb stomped last year is because we had an offense that could put up points. If this offense played last year it would be the same results. If we had last years offense this year, we may have won two more games.

 

[volfan411]

Go back to the off-season and look at the 1000's of threds that mentioned Butch getting it, the team buying in 100%, this is an improved team, and on & on.

Every cliche thrown out: Team 117, Brick by Brick, etc. was met with intense enthusiasm by the fanbase.

The bottom line is the talent isn't there and the schedule was brutal. What most people wasn't expecting was to get hammered in the losses to Oregon, Bama, Mizzou, and Auburn.

I have had to take a new approach to this season and this staff. As I look at it this may be the "best staff in America" for us right now and not the future. I am beginning to wonder if Jones did not look at our current roster and hire a staff full of good recruiters to get the players in here and then evaluate coaching ability after year 2.

 

[Orange_Crush]

Safe to say that Butch is being given less grace in his first year than Dooley was in his, yet most agree that Butch is or will be a far better coach than Dools. VN is truly bipolar.

Go root around in the 2011 threads, fade. Find the lucid, level-headed arguments given by sjt18 as to why CDD needed more time. They were the same arguments he's shooting down now.

http://www.volnation.com/forum/tennessee-vols-football/144748-good-god-we-suck-thanks-coaches.html

Link

Yeah. Couldn't possibly be the lack of talent they were left with, huh?

I am not saying the coaches are any good. You might be 100% right. But there's really no good way of knowing that for sure yet. They don't have a good enough team to know.

As for MTSU, Dooley pretty much said they could have thrown more on the second half but were trying to find something that worked in the run game.

The truth does indeed hurt. The truth is that when your program sinks as low as UT's had when Dooley was hired... you are going to have some pain getting it back together again. There are going to be times when you feel like you are groping around in the dark. Things are NOT going to just get easy and turn on a dime. They aren't even going to improve at an easy, always recognizable pace.

You are trying to judge the motor re-build while the parts are still laying all over the floor. If this kind of stuff is still going on next year at this time... then I think we all can agree that three years and three recruiting classes are enough that there should not be talent holes all over the place.

The painful truth is that there just are holes now.

:ermm:

 

[LWSVOL]

comparing Auburn versus Tennessee is comparing apples to oranges. Would you "others" not concede the point that it is OK to expect the team to improve or at least "stay the same" and not regress from game to game like they have done for the last three games? Should we not expect their special teams play to at least continue to get better and not worse as the season progresses?

are all the same players playing on special teams? maybe some have went down and they have had to add players who haven't been playing. That could cause things to be worse and not better.

Before Worley went down, we had TD passes being thrown. Now we don't. A change at QB cause of that?? could be.

 

[volfan411]

Go root around in the 2011 threads, fade. Find the lucid, level-headed arguments given by sjt18 as to why CDD needed more time. They were the same arguments he's shooting down now.

http://www.volnation.com/forum/tennessee-vols-football/144748-good-god-we-suck-thanks-coaches.html



:ermm:

Simply WOW!!

And to think Dooley took the parts to that motor and scattered them even more. I find it hard to believe some one could say that about Dooley and criticize the current staff. When that was posted there were glaring concerns about Dooley and his coaching ability.

 

[Orange_Crush]

Safe to say that Butch is being given less grace in his first year than Dooley was in his, yet most agree that Butch is or will be a far better coach than Dools. VN is truly bipolar.

In fairness to the conversation, I was on sjt's side with calling for CDD to get more time before making a judgment. I turned last season.

:hi:

 

[Orange_Crush]

are all the same players playing on special teams? maybe some have went down and they have had to add players who haven't been playing. That could cause things to be worse and not better.

Before Worley went down, we had TD passes being thrown. Now we don't. A change at QB cause of that?? could be.

If recent history is an indicator, he probably knows the answer and is suppressing the evidence to make the coaches look worse.

You actually did make a good point there. I have been waiting for someone to raise that point but it still doesn't explain the special teams play which is all about the team buying into the coaching staff.

Because that point should be made on your side of the argument.

 

[Orange_Crush]

To add to the list.

Yeah... it makes them act like a grown up rather than a whiny 8 year old girl. It makes them think rather going in to an emotional tantrum when things don't go as smooth as they want.

LOL@U... you mean except for a fanbase and media that have a HC on the hot seat after inheriting a program in the condition UT was in 2 years ago, right?

DD may be part of the equation but you can be certain that unrealistic expectations of a noisy minority of fans and several media members is a very big part.

Want to know why?... Here's your answer.

You are always going to have ill-informed/mis-informed loud mouths chirping in every time something negative happens.

For instance, CDD signed four 2* players in his first class primarily because he only had 2 1/2 weeks to finish the class.... He also signed several 4* guys and a 5* guy during that period. Two of those guys have earned PT (primarily ST's). He signed one 2* player as a project in the '11 class who DID NOT PLAY Sat.

Of the players signed in the last two years who participated Saturday... 22 total... 15 were 4/5*. Yet Fiji would promote the false impression that UT was beaten because UF's 4/5* beat up on a bunch of 2*scrubs.

That said, there is a talent disparity still because of the situation Dooley inherited. That limits gameplanning as does going on the road for the first time with such a young team. They obviously gameplanned offensively around Hunter and then he went down.

If we are still seeing these types of reasons next year or the next then it will be time to talk about a new coach. If Dooley hasn't beaten someone significant by the end of year three then I will be saying it is time to cut the losses. However, there's no team that could take the loss of a player of Hunter's caliber with no problems. It is completely IRRATIONAL to expect a team like UT to have done so at UF this past weekend.

Of course "rational" isn't what drives people who make posts like these.

I'm not either. He's a good hire only when he actually wins games against the SEC's top tier. He's a bad hire only after he's given at least 3 years to do so and fails.

SJT, you're a decent guy, and I've always enjoyed our conversations. What changed? Is it a "fool me once" mentality or what? You don't seem content to cut this staff the same slack because you made some great points back in the day.

I agree:

Talent gaps hamper game planning... etc...