Pastor Jones has new gimmick

[volinbham]

I was hung in effigy once many years ago, our HS rival had me and the only black guy on our team hung outside their stadium for homecoming. We both thought it was pretty dang funny.

Of course that was in the 80's when people had a sense of humor.

you probably deserved it but it was a hate crime to do it to the black guy

--signed Lawgator

 

[Gramps]

Still not a cult. False teachings don't make you a cult. David Koresh had a cult.

I agree, but do a google . They are considered a cult

 

[therealUT]

I agree, but do a google . They are considered a cult

Every religion is a cult:

cult, n.

1. Worship; reverential homage rendered to a divine being or beings.

2. A particular form or system of religious worship; esp. in reference to its external rites and ceremonies.

3. transf. Devotion or homage to a particular person or thing, now esp. as paid by a body of professed adherents or admirers.

OED

cult, n.

1: formal religious veneration : worship

2: a system of religious beliefs and ritual; also : its body of adherents

3: a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious; also : its body of adherents

Merriam-Webster

The only definition one might take issue with is MW's third definition. Yet, find me a religion that is not regarded as spurious by everyone outside of that religious community.

 

[volved]

the SS

SchutzStaffel?

 

[bamawriter]

Every religion is a cult:


The only definition one might take issue with is MW's third definition. Yet, find me a religion that is not regarded as spurious by everyone outside of that religious community.

That's why you can't just say Mormonism is a cult. They are a cult of Christianity. Without defining the type of cult, it falls under so broad a definition that everyone else fits in, too.

 

[Gramps]

Every religion is a cult:

The only definition one might take issue with is MW's third definition. Yet, find me a religion that is not regarded as spurious by everyone outside of that religious community.

That's why you can't just say Mormonism is a cult. They are a cult of Christianity. Without defining the type of cult, it falls under so broad a definition that everyone else fits in, too.

I understand what both of you are saying.

I was making a point about Pastor Jones.

He appears to be a right wing extremist conservative.
That group does consider Mormons a cult. That is very well documented.

He can't support Obama because of his gay marriage support... He can't support Romney because he is a mormon...

 

[lawgator1]

This statement relies entirely on the assumption that the hanger did this because of racial motivation.

Until I see evidence of that it is a standard, run of the mill hanging in effigy of a political figure.

You can argue that black people were lynched so this is racial but as has been pointed out over and over, political figures have been hung in effigy throughout history.

To claim this racially focused without any evidence is pure race baiting.

What evidence would you want? A declaration "I am doing this because he's black and I hate blacks"?

I think most rational people would consider hanging a black man in effigy as including at least some element of racism, given history.

 

[lawgator1]

Listed are some of their beliefs.

* God used to be a man on another planet, (Mormon Doctrine, p. 321; Joseph Smith,*Times and Seasons, vol. 5, p. 613-614; Orson Pratt,*Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, p. 345; Brigham Young,*Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 333).
* God resides near a star called Kolob, (Pearl of Great Price, p. 34-35;*Mormon Doctrine, p. 428).
* "The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s..." (Doctrines and Covenants 130:22).
* God is in the form of a man, (Joseph Smith,*Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p. 3).
* "God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens!!! . . . We have imagined that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea and take away the veil, so that you may see," (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 345).
* After you become a good Mormon, you have the potential of becoming a god, (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 345-347, 354.)
* There is a mother god, (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 443).
* God is married to his goddess wife and has spirit children, (Mormon Doctrine, p. 516).
* The trinity is three separate Gods: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. "That these three are separate individuals, physically distinct from each other, is demonstrated by the accepted records of divine dealings with man," (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 35.).
In contrast to these teachings, Christianity the Bible teaches that God has always been God and was never a man (Psalm 90:2
).* The Bible no where says he lives another star or that the Father has a body of flesh and bones -- which Christ contradicted in*John 4:24

You mean to tell me that Mitt Romney believes that God is just a man who lives on a planet near the star Koleb?

 

[therealUT]

I understand what both of you are saying.

I was making a point about Pastor Jones.

He appears to be a right wing extremist conservative.
That group does consider Mormons a cult. That is very well documented.

He can't support Obama because of his gay marriage support... He can't support Romney because he is a mormon...

He should not be supporting either so long as his organization remains un-taxed.

 

[volinbham]

What evidence would you want? A declaration "I am doing this because he's black and I hate blacks"?

I think most rational people would consider hanging a black man in effigy as including at least some element of racism, given history.

Wrong - most people would see it as hanging a political figure in effigy given history. That's the point - it is a common political protest. There is zero evidence of a racial element. You are projecting it onto this incident.

 

[OrangeEmpire]

Wrong - most people would see it as hanging a political figure in effigy given history. That's the point - it is a common political protest. There is zero evidence of a racial element. You are projecting it onto this incident.

But, but, but, but white people are racists

 

[DinkinFlicka]

Back on track (wow, that feels weird), LG... say all your gripes are legitimate... what do you feel should be done?

You've asked posters why they aren't freaking out. Well, what good would it do? Yeah, Terry Jones is more than likely a racist piece of excrement, but his stench IS protected by the first Amendment. If you'd prefer a country where taboo is illegal, I'd suggest living in North Korea and vacationing in Russia.

 

[Gramps]

You mean to tell me that Mitt Romney believes that God is just a man who lives on a planet near the star Koleb?

I do not know what Romney believes or does not believe but that is what the Mormons believe.

They also believe that Men and women have the potential of becoming gods.

In order to reach this exalted state of godhood, a person must first become a good Mormon, pay a full ten percent tithe to the Mormon church, follow various laws and ordinances of the church, and be found worthy.

At this point, they receive a temple recommend, whereupon the Mormon is allowed to enter their sacred temples in order to go through a set of secret rituals: baptism for the dead, celestial marriage, and various oaths of secrecy and commitment.
Additionally, four secret handshakes are taught so the believing Mormon, upon entering the third level of Mormon heaven, can shake hands with god in a certain pattern. This celestial ritual is for the purpose of permitting entrance into the highest level of heaven.

For those who achieve this highest of heavens, exaltation to godhood awaits them. Then he or she will be permitted to have his or her own planet and be the god of his own world and the Mormon system will be expanded to other planets.

 

[OrangeEmpire]

The Kingdom of Matthias is a good read on the early days mormonism

 

[lawgator1]

Wrong - most people would see it as hanging a political figure in effigy given history. That's the point - it is a common political protest. There is zero evidence of a racial element. You are projecting it onto this incident.

Agree to disagree, then.

 

[bamacheats]

The Kingdom of Matthias is a good read on the early days mormonism

It's got a bloody beginning for sure. Brigham Young is an embarrassment. They've come a long way though. I talk to the guys every time they come by. Gotta respect the effort even if their beliefs are way off base Biblically from how I see it.

 

[lawgator1]

Back on track (wow, that feels weird), LG... say all your gripes are legitimate... what do you feel should be done?

You've asked posters why they aren't freaking out. Well, what good would it do? Yeah, Terry Jones is more than likely a racist piece of excrement, but his stench IS protected by the first Amendment. If you'd prefer a country where taboo is illegal, I'd suggest living in North Korea and vacationing in Russia.

Well, many in this forum have argued that, if mainstream Muslims want to demonstrate that they are peace-loving and bear no ill will towards the West and Christianity, then they ought to speak up when someone who claims, in the name of Islam, to undertake some awful act.

I would similarly argue that Christians and political opponents of Pres. Obama should decry what Jones has done here as not representative of either their religion or their political opposition to the President. Saying he's a nut is correct, but its not enough. The wing nuts are getting all the attention and the best way to handle it is for leaders to say something.

I mean, you have bham on here saying he doesn't see any evidence that this is racial. Really ????? Wouldn't it be better just to condemn it as having offensive racial symbolism to it, intended or not, and denounce it as such?

I think back to McCain on the stage with the old lady who bitterly complained that Obama was an "A-rab" and a Muslim McCain paused and said "No, no. He's a good Christian family man."

I had hope in that one moment that the dialogue would get better, sharper, more focused on policy. Instead, what happens? McCain is labeled as weak by the TP and the far right. The radicals took over and made it wrong to decry the hate coming from the darkest corners of the far right.

 

[utvolpj]

did you really just lump anyone against Obama into the same group? Seriously?

 

[therealUT]

I do not know what Romney believes or does not believe but that is what the Mormons believe.

They also believe that Men and women have the potential of becoming gods.

In order to reach this exalted state of godhood, a person must first become a good Mormon, pay a full ten percent tithe to the Mormon church, follow various laws and ordinances of the church, and be found worthy.

At this point, they receive a temple recommend, whereupon the Mormon is allowed to enter their sacred temples in order to go through a set of secret rituals: baptism for the dead, celestial marriage, and various oaths of secrecy and commitment.
Additionally, four secret handshakes are taught so the believing Mormon, upon entering the third level of Mormon heaven, can shake hands with god in a certain pattern. This celestial ritual is for the purpose of permitting entrance into the highest level of heaven.

For those who achieve this highest of heavens, exaltation to godhood awaits them. Then he or she will be permitted to have his or her own planet and be the god of his own world and the Mormon system will be expanded to other planets.

Crazy, right?

John 10:33-16
The Jews answered him, “We are not stoning you for a good work but for blasphemy. You, a man, are making yourself God.” Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods”’? If it calls them gods to whom the word of God came, and scripture cannot be set aside, can you say that the one whom the Father has consecrated and sent into the world blasphemes because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?

Psalm 82: 5-7
The gods neither know nor understand,
wandering about in darkness,
and all the world’s foundations shake.

I declare: “Gods though you be,
offspring of the Most High all of you,

Yet like any mortal you shall die;
like any prince you shall fall.”

Footnote: I declare: “Gods though you be”: in Jn 10:34 Jesus uses the verse to prove that those to whom the word of God is addressed can fittingly be called “gods.”

For if He had made him immortal from the beginning, He would have made him God...so that if he should incline to the things of immortality, keeping the commandment of God, he should receive as reward from Him immortality, and should become God...For God has given us a law and holy commandments; and every one who keeps these can be saved, and, obtaining the resurrection, can inherit incorruption (Theophilus of Antioch. To Autolycus, Book 2, Chapter XXVII. Translated by Marcus Dods, A.M. Excerpted from Ante-Nicene Fathers, Volume 2. Edited by Alexander Roberts & James Donaldson. American Edition, 1885. Online Edition Copyright © 2004 by K. Knight).

For we cast blame upon Him, because we have not been made gods from the beginning, but at first merely men, then at length gods. (Irenaeus. Adversus Haereses (Book IV, Chapter 38, Verse 4)

And you shall receive the kingdom of heaven, you who, while you sojourned in this life, knew the Celestial King. And you shall be a companion of the Deity, and a co-heir with Christ, no longer enslaved by lusts or passions, and never again wasted by disease. For you have become God.(Hippolytus. The Discourse on the Holy Theophany, Chapter 8. Copyright © 2007 by Kevin Knight)

And now the Word Himself clearly speaks to you, shaming your unbelief; yea, I say, the Word of God became man, that you may learn from man how man may become God (Clement of Alexandria . Exhortation to the Heathen (Chapter 1). Copyright © 2007 by Kevin Knight)

I do not envy Christ His becoming God, for I can become God no less than He (Labourt J. Transcribed by John Fobian. Ibas. The Catholic Encyclopedia, Volume VII. Published 1910. New York: Robert Appleton Company. Nihil Obstat, June 1, 1910. Remy Lafort, S.T.D., Censor. Imprimatur. +John Cardinal Farley, Archbishop of New York)

 

[lawgator1]

did you really just lump anyone against Obama into the same group? Seriously?

No, and that's my point.

I would have hoped that people who dislike Obama because of his policies would jump all over the Jones effigy thing and denounce it, strongly, in order to claim the high ground.

But they didn't. Its not that they agree with what Jones does. Its that they are afraid of those within their own ranks that do.

 

[utvolpj]

No, and that's my point.

I would have hoped that people who dislike Obama because of his policies would jump all over the Jones effigy thing and denounce it, strongly, in order to claim the high ground.

But they didn't. Its not that they agree with what Jones does. Its that they are afraid of those within their own ranks that do.

dear god you're really going this way? From undecided voter to lib shill. Quite a leap in such a short time

there is nothing to "denounce" and I doubt anyone on here is associated with Jones in any way. Your comparisons to Islam are weak at best and your outrage transparent. You were never up in arms when it was done to anyone else in the world but this has now become your octagon.

 

[Gramps]

Crazy, right?

What religion other than Mormonism believe that if one pays a full ten percent tithe to their church they will become a good member and become the God of there own planet?

 

[therealUT]

No, and that's my point.

I would have hoped that people who dislike Obama because of his policies would jump all over the Jones effigy thing and denounce it, strongly, in order to claim the high ground.

But they didn't. Its not that they agree with what Jones does. Its that they are afraid of those within their own ranks that do.

Plenty of posters in here that think burning and hanging straw men is offensive have denounced Jones's action; they have not denounced it as racist because it does not appear to be racist. Effigies of political figures, the world over, are hung, burnt, beaten with baseball bats, etc. Without overt evidence that Jones was acting from racial motivations (as opposed to political/ideological motivations), then why denounce the act as racist?

 

[lawgator1]

dear god you're really going this way? From undecided voter to lib shill. Quite a leap in such a short time

there is nothing to "denounce" and I doubt anyone on here is associated with Jones in any way. Your comparisons to Islam are weak at best and your outrage transparent. You were never up in arms when it was done to anyone else in the world but this has now become your octagon.

I am sad that you think that to be the case.

 

[utvolpj]

I am sad that you think that to be the case.

it's a person hanged in effigy. You're the only one that seems to see the color of the person rather than what it actually was. You must go through race cards like Al Gore goes through carbon credits