Peace-loving and religiously tolerant Muslims in Egypt

[DinkinFlicka]

To underline my victory over you in the CO2 debate:

You say this as though anyone aside from you believes you won that debate.

Nobody won it, but you definitely lost.

Is there a thread about Muslims you WON'T post in? Gsvol, the armchair crusader. Honorary member of The Knights La-Z-Boy.

 

[gsvol]

Agree to a certain extent. If the Muslim believes in strict teaching of the Q'uran, then they hate everyone not Muslim. If not, then not always. Christians are more scattered in their opinions on Muslims.

Islam is the religion of hate, from top to bottom.

Not sure what you mean by the genders, but the history of Christians vs Muslims is back and forth.

I think Christians struck the first blow with the Reconquista, though. That would be the ancient history.

As far as modern history goes, I'm pretty sure the collapse of the Ottoman Empire dissolving post WW1 also involved Christian nations.

Again, though. Not necessarily directly Christians acting on Muslims over religion, but not exactly how they see it, either.

The reconquista was when the moslems were driven out of the Iberian penenusula after the people had served 700 years of slavery under islam.

Your view of history is embarrassingly deficient.

 

[gsvol]

You say this as though anyone aside from you believes you won that debate.

Nobody won it, but you definitely lost.

Is there a thread about Muslims you WON'T post in? Gsvol, the armchair crusader. Honorary member of The Knights La-Z-Boy.

I've seen house plants that were more fun to be around than you and I'm not even the fern bar type.

 

[IPorange]

That's one interpretation.

 

[fl0at]

The reconquista was when the moslems were driven out of the Iberian penenusula after the people had served 700 years of slavery under islam.

Your view of history is embarrassingly deficient.

Aside from your snide remark, here is my take on that:

The reconquista was a multi-"national" (not really nations, but you get the point) event designed to drive back Muslim conquest. The Muslim conquest was under one "flag," whereas the reconquista was the first time we see a multi-Christian kingdom conglomerate come together to drive back a single force (Muslim expansion).

As to my history being deficient, "the people" had not served 700 years of slavery, they had served 7 years. It merely took ~700 years to completely reconquer the peninsula. So yes, the last piece of land to be reclaimed suffered "700 years of slavery," but that isn't how long it took to start the reconquista.

Some dates:
711 -- Conquest of Iberian Peninsula begins.
718 -- Islamic rule extends to almost all of the Peninsula
718 -- Reconquista begins with the Battle of Covadonga.

718-711=7; oddly enough, divine number.

Also, the Preds are terrible.

 

[gsvol]

Aside from your snide remark, here is my take on that:

The reconquista was a multi-"national" (not really nations, but you get the point) event designed to drive back Muslim conquest. The Muslim conquest was under one "flag," whereas the reconquista was the first time we see a multi-Christian kingdom conglomerate come together to drive back a single force (Muslim expansion).

As to my history being deficient, "the people" had not served 700 years of slavery, they had served 7 years. It merely took ~700 years to completely reconquer the peninsula. So yes, the last piece of land to be reclaimed suffered "700 years of slavery," but that isn't how long it took to start the reconquista.

Some dates:
711 -- Conquest of Iberian Peninsula begins.
718 -- Islamic rule extends to almost all of the Peninsula
718 -- Reconquista begins with the Battle of Covadonga.

718-711=7; oddly enough, divine number.

Also, the Preds are terrible.

The Preds are having a pretty good year.

""the people" had not served 700 years of slavery, they had served 7 years. "

PURE IGNORANCE!

From Obamama's Cairo Speech:

"Islam has a proud tradition of tolerance. We see it in the history of Andalusia and Cordoba during the Inquisition."

Which of course is a load of crap because anyone that does a real study of the history of Islamic occupation of the Iberian peninsula during that time knows full well that there was no tolerance by its Islamic rulers against the other religions. It was slavery and pay the jizya tax, or convert.

First a little history of why the muslims conquered Spain:

By 710AD, Jews and Christians had been in the Iberian peninsula for a few hundred years and the Visigoth king Rodrigo ruled from the capital Toledo.

Emir Musa ruled North Africa from Kairouan in Tunisia. He saw that Spain was ripe for plunder with great financial wealth, and beautiful girls aplenty for the Harems in Kairouan and Damascus.

Musa then received permission from the Caliph Walid who ruled from Damascus, and then chose Tariq, a Berber, who was a former Algerian slave, but now a fierce warrior and a recent convert to Islam, to lead his army. They sent a small force of a few hundred men on a raid, and when they returned loaded with riches and pretty girls, Musa was much impressed. So the invasion of Al-Andalus (valley of Vandals) was not so much about converting the infidel to Islam, but the focus was on booty, women and slaves to be delivered back to Damascus.

The first major battle was against the Visigoth king Rodrigo, and took place near the river Rio Barbate, which is in the Xeres district, now famous for its sherry.

Rodrigo and his army was no match for the fierce Berbers and were easily defeated, with casualties in the tens of thousands. Rodrigo himself is believed to have drowned in the river attempting to escape. His horse, robes and diadem were found on the river bank.

On the way Cordoba was captured, and Toledo was easily taken. The booty was fabulous and included a gold and emerald table from the Temple of Solomon.

Musa returned to Damascus with tons of booty, Visigoth dignitaries as prisoners and 3,000 Spanish virgins.

From 756AD to 1031AD, there was a series of Islamic leaders of Cordoba (Umayyads of Cordoba). Some of their highlights include:

Hisham I (788-796) called for Holy War against Asturias and France, and assembled 100,000 warriors from even Syria, Arabia and Algeria, and attacked Narbonne and Carcassone and won enough booty to fund a new mosque in Cordoba.

Al-Hakam (796-822) became known for the “Day of the Ditch” where he beheaded 5,000 converts to Islam in Toledo on suspicion of treachery.

Almanzor (967-1002) He beheaded 4,000 Christians after taking Zamora. He won the battle near Simancus and again beheaded about 4,000 Christians. Almanzor also razed the Christian shrine city of Santiago de Compostela which was to the Christians like the Kaaba was to the Muslims.

Conversion to Islam was encouraged by the Ummayad caliphs and Emirs of Córdoba. Many Christians converted to Islam to avoid the Jizya tax which they were subjected to as Dhimmis. Apostasy, however, for one who had been raised as a Muslim or had embraced Islam, was a crime punishable by death.

From the point of view of the Muslim rulers, jizya was a material proof of the non-Muslims' acceptance of subjection to the state and its laws. Non-Muslims were also not allowed to build any new places of worship.

In Al-Andalus, the large numbers of Christians adopting Islam to escape the Jizya tax and treatment of Dhimmitude prompted concern among the authorities about the weakening of the tax base and further inflamed resentment towards the Muwallads.

The Muwallads were in almost constant revolts against the Arab and Berber immigrants who had carved out large estates for themselves, farmed by Christian slaves.

In 1011, there was a massacre of Jews in Cordoba: which was followed by other slaughters in other parts of Al Andalus, notably in Granada in 1066. The famous Jewish scholar, Maimonides originally lived in Cordoba in the early 12th century, until the Almohades dynasty took the city, and threatened to kill any Jews who did not leave or convert to Islam. Maimonides’ family relocated to the more tolerant university city of Fes, in Morocco.

The Berbers, who held strictly to Islamic teachings, terrorised and looted Cordoba until the city fell and the Umayyad dynasty came to an end in 1031AD.

When Toledo was recaptured in 1085AD, and Seville had become the centre of Moorish culture, they sought help from North Africa. However the Almoravids were horrified when they entered Seville and noticed Jews and Christians trading freely in the markets, selling musical instruments and wine. A Fatwa was obtained and the Almoravids gained control of all Muslim lands and even taking back Valencia from the Christians.

This was followed by the even stricter Almohads who in turn fought and defeated the Almoravids in bloody Jihad.

But eventually the Reconquista proved unstoppable and soon only the southern Taifa of Granada was left in Muslim hands.

Eventually Ferdinand and Isabella forced Mohammed XII (Boabdil) to surrender and he even gave them the keys to the palace before fleeing to Fez in Africa. Islam no longer controlled any part of Spain.

Was there a Golden Age of tolerance that Obama is talking about?

What can be concluded is that under the Umayyads of Abdul Rahman III, civilization flourished for only about 100 years because true Islam was not practised, and indeed to Jews and Christians dhimmitude was not as severe, and they mixed with Muslim scholars; Literature, Medicine, Science and Astronomy advanced; Poetry and Music flourished (not banned); Wine was drunk for pleasure (not banned) Indeed, it could be said that:

“the Golden Age happened in spite of Islam, NOT because of Islam”.

When Cordoba was sacked, the scholars moved base to Toledo after 1085AD where science and literature flourished under Christian rule, NOT Islam. Scholars came from Europe to embrace new ideas then spread this throughout Europe.

But, in any case, this was long before the Spanish Inquisition, which started in 1478. Cordoba had been reconquered by Spain in 1236. The city was not under Muslim rule during the Inquisition.

 

[fl0at]

The Preds are having a pretty good year.

""the people" had not served 700 years of slavery, they had served 7 years. "

PURE IGNORANCE!

Wow, that rambling post in no way counters the fact that the reconquista began 7 years after the beginning of the conquest of Iberia, in 711.

From your post # 177

The reconquista was when the moslems were driven out of the Iberian penenusula after the people had served 700 years of slavery under islam.

Your view of history is embarrassingly deficient.

Like I said, a portion of the peninsula was under 700 year rule, but only because that is how long it took the reconquista to complete.

It took 7 years to begin the reconquest, 18 years for the first part to be cleared (Covadonga), 419 years or so to take half the peninsula, which means, no, the people did not suffer for "700" years.

Furthermore:

The Reconquista was a brutal conflict fueled in part by devotion to Christianity — not just a war between kingdoms but a crusade against infidels. In al-Andalus — the Arabic name for Muslim-controlled Iberia — Christians and Jews had significant religious freedom. The Christian rulers to the north did not return the favor. The rulers of Spain’s kingdoms found that their shared Christianity could unite them and set them apart from the Muslims to the south. The men who fought in the Reconquista were convinced of their superiority to their enemies who had rejected Christianity, and they developed rules of war based on that superiority — including the right to enslave the people they conquered. Once Spain was reconquered, Muslims and Jews were forced to convert to Christianity or be expelled from Spain.

Spain and America: From Reconquest to Conquest - North Carolina Digital History

 

[gsvol]

Wow, that rambling post in no way counters the fact that the reconquista began 7 years after the beginning of the conquest of Iberia, in 711.

Like I said, a portion of the peninsula was under 700 year rule, but only because that is how long it took the reconquista to complete.

It took 7 years to begin the reconquest, 18 years for the first part to be cleared (Covadonga), 419 years or so to take half the peninsula, which means, no, the people did not suffer for "700" years.

That was my point, many of the natives of Spain and Portugal lived under the harsh rule of the moslems for over 700 years during which time thousands might be beheaded at the whim of the then current islamic ruler merely because they were non-moslems and many more thousands were shipped off to the slave markets of North Africa and the mideast annually and those non-moslems who continued to live under islamic rule had to pay the special tax that rendered them to be virtual slaves.

Don't be a nudnik.

Back to current day Egypt (and other mideastern countries):

Middle East Genocide of Christians? | Daily News | NCRegister.com

While attacks on Christians in the Middle East are nothing new, the situation has escalated.
------------------------------------------

“Violence against Christians is something that happens every day and has as its aim to rid the Middle East of the Christian presence,” ........
-----------------------------------

“Fundamentally, United States policies in the Middle East have never placed a significant priority on the conditions of indigenous Christians or the threats they have been up against just for being Christian,” Habib Malik wrote in his recently published book, Islamism and the Future of the Christians in the Middle East.

Uh oh: White House declines to endorse Mubarak in Egypt Hot Air

In Egypt, however, the energy behind the political opposition comes from the Muslim Brotherhood, an Islamist force seeking not democracy but a new theocracy.
----------------------------------

White House Declines to Say If US Still Supports Egypt’s Mubarak

 

[CountVolcula]

YouTube - BBC Documentary: Armenian Genocide - 'The Betrayed' - part 1/5

YouTube - The Armenian Genocide Islamic Persecution of Non Muslims

 

[fl0at]

YouTube - BBC Documentary: Armenian Genocide - 'The Betrayed' - part 1/5

YouTube - The Armenian Genocide Islamic Persecution of Non Muslims

We are a far better place without the Ottoman Empire. There is still a lot of rightful hate for all things Islam by many Armenians.

History cuts deep and leaves long and lasting impressions.

 

[gsvol]

We are a far better place without the Ottoman Empire. There is still a lot of rightful hate for all things Islam by many Armenians.

History cuts deep and leaves long and lasting impressions.

The history of the twentieth century shows us ten million Chritians, not counting the Jews, hindus and buddhists, slaughtered by moslims.

I'm not so much into hate as I am into awareness.

Stupidity and ignorance are not somethings to be desired.

 

[fl0at]

The history of the twentieth century shows us ten million Chritians, not counting the Jews, hindus and buddhists, slaughtered by moslims.

I'm not so much into hate as I am into awareness.

Stupidity and ignorance are not somethings to be desired.

I am in no way saying Islam doesn't have a past full of murder, I am saying all religions do. And those without do. Fanatisicm has that effect.

Islam is a militant religion, in the hands of a militant individual. Christianity is a rather intolerant religion, in the hands of the intolerant.

Both are used for manipulation. Islam is just more forceful. The Qur'an is way more militant than the Bible, though.

Considering the birth of both books, and the way both were written, I am not surprised.

I see Islam as more of a political philosophy than a religion. If the Qur'an didn't speak about god and converting, Gibbs would have us all believe college football is "Islamist" because we don't let women play.
Posted via VolNation Mobile

 

[bam15]

Egypt Internet Goes Down, According To Reports

Egyptian internet has been shutdown.

Democracy and freedom will prevail.

 

[gsvol]

I am in no way saying Islam doesn't have a past full of murder, I am saying all religions do. And those without do. Fanatisicm has that effect.

Islam is a militant religion, in the hands of a militant individual. Christianity is a rather intolerant religion, in the hands of the intolerant.

Both are used for manipulation. Islam is just more forceful. The Qur'an is way more militant than the Bible, though.

Considering the birth of both books, and the way both were written, I am not surprised.

I see Islam as more of a political philosophy than a religion. If the Qur'an didn't speak about god and converting, Gibbs would have us all believe college football is "Islamist" because we don't let women play.
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[VOLatile]

One day soon the mods will tire of your intolerance for opinion and finally ban you.

 

[Fyodor Dostoevsky]

Apparently I'm the only one on this board that finds this whole argument to be disgusting. We are all the children of the God of Abraham.

 

[VOLatile]

Apparently I'm the only one on this board that finds this whole argument to be disgusting. We are all the children of the God of Abraham.

The Holy FSM has no relation to Abraham. He is the one true noodly deity.

 

[IPorange]

Apparently I'm the only one on this board that finds this whole argument to be disgusting. We are all the children of the God of Abraham.

I'm not.
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[Fyodor Dostoevsky]

I'm not.
Posted via VolNation Mobile

Being an atheist doesn't preclude you from being a child of God. I was an atheist for a long time for a lot of the same reasons. I didn't just grow up, or find salvation, or become better than you like most of the holier-than-thou types would patronize you with. I just realized that God had to and will always exist. There is too much beauty in the world. Man's sublime creations are the justification of His existence.

The Brothers Karamazov, actually, was my turning point.

 

[DC Vol]

Being an atheist doesn't preclude you from being a child of God. I was an atheist for a long time for a lot of the same reasons. I didn't just grow up, or find salvation, or become better than you like most of the holier-than-thou types would patronize you with. I just realized that God had to and will always exist. There is too much beauty in the world. Man's sublime creations are the justification of His existence.

The Brothers Karamazov, actually, was my turning point.

Honestly, if mankind (from what I've seen of it in my time on this Earth) is a reflection of God we're in a bad way.

I think, for a lot of people, it's a resignation. It's terrifying to think that your entire life... your entire existence is not even significant enough to register in the timeline of the universe. The more we find out about our existence... the more tenuous that "supreme being" thought becomes. We're mere specks of dust on a rock perilously spinning around an aging sun. Something so simple as a mile-wide asteroid colliding with Earth would bring our mighty accomplishments to a halt if not entirely wiping out civilization.


So I guess it's easy to find comfort in something that supersedes everyday life.

 

[IPorange]

Being an atheist doesn't preclude you from being a child of God. I was an atheist for a long time for a lot of the same reasons. I didn't just grow up, or find salvation, or become better than you like most of the holier-than-thou types would patronize you with. I just realized that God had to and will always exist. There is too much beauty in the world. Man's sublime creations are the justification of His existence.

The Brothers Karamazov, actually, was my turning point.

Were the people Canaan that were whole-sale slaughtered by the Israelites, with body parts piled up, not children of god?
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[DC Vol]

It's being reported that Egyptian Christians guarded Muslims from government dispersers during Adhan (Muslim call to prayer) today.


Just thought people might want to know their fellow Christians risked themselves to guard vile, savage Muslims.

 

[gsvol]

Muslim Brotherhood: Egypt’s SEIU

Khomeini’s government slaughtered more citizens in its first few weeks than the Shah’s regime killed during its entire thirty- eight year reign. The incendiary ayatollah’s take over was a catalyst for the worldwide expansion of Islamic terrorism.

The Obama administration is running the same experiment in Egypt. Granted, Mubarak is not an ideal leader. Compared to the Muslim Brotherhood, he looks downright statesmanlike. It’s the Brotherhood out there firing up the base in the streets.
----------------------------------------

Mubarak, for all of his many flaws, has been able to keep Egypt from falling under the control of Islamic terrorists.

 

[DC Vol]

but.... what you mentioned mostly if not only involved the slaughter of muslims so it doesn't count, right?

 

[VOLatile]

It's being reported that Egyptian Christians guarded Muslims from government dispersers during Adhan (Muslim call to prayer) today.


Just thought people might want to know their fellow Christians risked themselves to guard vile, savage Muslims.

The world has more good people than bad. It's too bad that the news of the bad people supersede the news of the good.