Pearl discussion (split)

[Thunder Good-Oil]

"Barnes had just finished his 3rd year at Clemson and maybe he was one of the coaches that KO contacted urging them to not work for Dickey. If so, he didn’t turn TN down because TN wasn’t serious about basketball. It would have been because Doug Dickey was a prick and would have been a s***ty boss."

Nope. Barnes himself said it nothing to do with Doug Dickey. There is a recent ESPN article from last Wednesday about how the SEC has became dominant where he says specifically this. It's the same article where he talks about the 1989 job hire and the SEC being set being a football league (Tennessee in the SEC, btw)

Nice conjecture, tho.

Your linked article said that it was a “running JOKE”. And read the whole sentence. “Across the league”. Georgia and Florida possibly de-emphasized basketball (although Georgia had hired Hugh Durham away from with a Final 4 on his résumé and Florida cheated it’s way into having a decent team in the 1980s with Nirm Sloan. LSU had it rolling. So did Auburn.

"The running joke was that you've got football season, spring football, and then everything else falls behind it, and that basketball is in there somewhere," said Barnes, who has taken teams from four conferences to the NCAA tournament. "That was a mentality that was created by leadership, whether you want to call it the leadership in the conference, the schools or whatever. There just wasn't an emphasis placed on basketball across the league."

 

[walkenvol]

I’ve never heard the so called fact that Barnes wanted no part of TN because it and the SEC was too football oriented. I’d like to see a link to something believable. It’s not like Barnes keeps that type of thing a secret.

When Devoe was hired in 1978 the idea to build a new, mega basketball arena was already in play. $25 million was a huge non-football commitment at that time. Mears was still around when one option was considered to build it in the south end of Neyland Stadium as a convertible venue. TN was neck and neck with Bama as the #2 basketball program in the SEC and Mears had just gone 0.500 versus Adolph Rupp and Joe B Hall. The NCAAT wasn’t that big of a deal in the 1970s. Early rounds aren’t even on TV. TN was committed to building up the basketball program at that time.

Then when Devoe had his early success the plans materialized to build the LARGEST ON CAMPUS BASKETBALL FACILITY in the country. It wasn’t going to be bigger than the Carrier Dome which opened in 1980. But the CD wasn’t used exclusively for basketball. TBA was built specifically to be bigger than Rupp Arena. That’s not done without having a commitment to basketball as well as football.

TBA began construction in 1983 under Woodruff and it was completed in 1987 under Dickey.

Dickey neglected basketball in the 1990s, but he attempted to upgrade basketball in 1989 when he fired Devoe. At that time Pat Kennedy was the overwhelming number one target and he flirted with TN but he decided to stay at FL State. Houston was 2-A and Leonard Hamilton was 2-B. Both flew in to Knoxville for interviews. Dickey wanted to hire LH but Lamar Alexander made him hire Houston. TN was going to hire a black head coach if they didn’t land Kennedy. Barnes wasn’t a serious candidate. He had just moved on from George Mason to Providence. He wouldn’t have been an upgrade over Devoe at that time.

After Dickey fired Houston in 1994, the overwhelming first choice was Kevin O’Neill. He had Marquette in the Sweet 16 and it was a given that when he was in the 1994 NCAA Sweet 16 at Thompson-Boling that he was going to be the next UT coach. There really wasn’t a coaching search beyond KO and Barnes was hired at Clemson at that same time. KO was the hottest available candidate and UT easily hired him. Further evidence that TN was taking basketball seriously.

KO battled with Dickey and quit abruptly after 3 years. Then KO proceeded to contact all of the potential replacement candidates to trash Dickey and UT. Jerry Green was way down the list. He was about the 6th, 7th, or 8th choice and was hired in 1997. Barnes had just finished his 3rd year at Clemson and maybe he was one of the coaches that KO contacted urging them to not work for Dickey. If so, he didn’t turn TN down because TN wasn’t serious about basketball. It would have been because Doug Dickey was a prick and would have been a s***ty boss.

Green left in 2001 after 4x NCAATs and 4x 20 win seasons. Barnes had just completed his 3rd year at Texas and it would have been a lateral move at best to leave Texas for Tennessee. Probably a step back. And Texas was clearly a FOOTBALL FIRST school.

Buzz was hired in 2001 and it was a mistake to stick with the North Carolina coaching tree. Peterson was Michael Jordan’s roommate. But I don’t recall MJ ever setting foot in Knoxville to offer support of any kind to TN BB and Buzz.

Dickey left as AD in 2002 snd Mike Hamilton was hired from within in 2003.

The Bruce Pearl hire resembled the KO hire. An overachieving Sweet 16 coach that was the first and only choice. Bruce had baggage but got Grunfeld’s endorsement. Grunfeld was the GM for the Milwaukee Bucks during the first couple of years that Bruce was at UW-Milwaukee. TN was already committed to basketball when BP was hired in 2005.

Bruce left TN’s program as a dumpster inferno. Then he lurked around Knoxville after Cuonzo was hired. Cuonzo was the opposite of Pearl. He had integrity, class, and didn’t promote a circus atmosphere.

The only time that Barnes MIGHT have avoided UT was when KO was trying to burn down UT to get back at Dickey. Several other names did the same. And Barnes was comfortably at Clemson. There was no reason to leave Clemson to come work for Dickey at UT. After KO and after BP were the 2 most toxic periods in TN basketball history and neither was due to a lack of commitment because TN was a football school,

KO was an abrasive personality when he coached here which always made me wonder who was supplying his “bag” money to sign the top recruits he landed? Not saying your wrong, but KO doesn’t appear to have endeared himself to the college coaching community which makes me wonder why anyone would have listened to a belligerent disgruntled ex coach talking bad about his former employer? I think you’re history post shows how important it is to have good leadership in the athletic department for sustained success.

 

[Thunder Good-Oil]

^^^
From the article:
The school twice tried to hire Barnes when he was younger, the first time when he was at Providence and then again when he was at Clemson. He simply wasn't sold on the SEC's commitment to basketball.

The article says that Barnes “met with Doug Dickey”. The article exaggerates that into TN “tried to hire” Barnes. The job opening never fell to Barnes as a preferred choice. It was Kennedy, Houston, and Hamilton. Leonard would have been the 3rd offer.

 

[Thunder Good-Oil]

So what?
Doesn't change the facts.
Again, nice conjecture.

Talk about conjecture. Are you aware of what YOU post?

 

[Thunder Good-Oil]

KO was an abrasive personality when he coached here which always made me wonder who was supplying his “bag” money to sign the top recruits he landed? Not saying your wrong, but KO doesn’t appear to have endeared himself to the college coaching community which makes me wonder why anyone would have listened to a belligerent disgruntled ex coach talking bad about his former employer? I think you’re history post shows how important it is to have good leadership in the athletic department for sustained success.

KO had a head coaching job in the Big 10 so he still had influence. Other coaches would want to know the reasons why he quit a better program with TN to go to a lesser program Northwestern. Plus he had been a top assistant for Lute Olson who was well respected as a head basketball coach at a major program tgat was winning a lot of ballgames.

KO’s departure from TN had nothing to do with football. It was because two a-holes couldn’t get along with each other.

 

[Anti-shunshinepumper]

The article says that Barnes “met with Doug Dickey”. The article exaggerates that into TN “tried to hire” Barnes. The job opening never fell to Barnes as a preferred choice. It was Kennedy, Houston, and Hamilton. Leonard would have been the 3rd offer.

So now ESPN is dishonestly making things up? lol
It specifically said Tennessee tried to hire Barnes twice. You left out the part " about a job"

Barnes met with then-Tennessee athletic director Doug Dickey about the job.

If Barnes met with Doug Dickey I'm sure it wasn't for just tea and crumpets.

You're just pissed because your conjecture that Barnes wouldn't have taken a job at Tennessee would have been becasue of Doug Dickey " being a sh!tty boss". Barnes specifically says him not being at Tennessee back then had nothing to do with Doug Dickey. It was the league as a whole Barnes was passing on.
I'll take Barnes's words over your speculation, dude.

 

[Thunder Good-Oil]

So now ESPN is dishonestly making things up? lol
It specifically said Tennessee tried to hire Barnes twice. If Barnes met with Doug Dickey I'm sure it wasn't for just tea and crumpets.

You're just pissed because your conjecture that Barnes wouldn't have taken a job at Tennessee would have been becasue of Doug Dickey " being a sh!tty boss". Barnes specifically says him not being at Tennessee back then had nothing to do with Doug Dickey. It was the league as a whole Barnes was passing on.
I'll take Barnes's words over your speculation, dude.

Meeting with an AD looking to fill an open position is far different than offering the coach the job. Talking to a lot of coaches is part of the process. Dickey could have talked to dozens of possible candidates. Barnes wasn’t a top choice in 1989. ESPN is distorting the truth.

 

[Anti-shunshinepumper]

Meeting with an AD looking to fill an open position is far different than offering the coach the job. Talking to a lot of coaches is part of the process. Dickey could have talked to dozens of possible candidates. Barnes wasn’t a top choice in 1989. ESPN is distorting the truth.

I don't know why you keep babbling about top choices. Who said he was a top choice?
What's that ultimately got to do with anything I have said?

The fact is ESPN has said:

Barnes met with then-Tennessee athletic director Doug Dickey about the job.

That happened, dude. Barnes even talks about it with two ESPN writer friends.

Man alive, the lengths some people will go to to avoid just admitting they were wrong.
Your conjecture was off, bud.
It's wasn't that big of a deal. You're actually making it into a bigger deal by defending it to the death

 

[walkenvol]

KO’s departure from TN had nothing to do with football. It was because two a-holes couldn’t get along with each other.

Correct - and I think it was common knowledge amongst the college coaching community that KO was abrasive. If I were in consideration for the Tennessee job, doubt I would have consulted KO to make my decision. JMO, TIFWIW

 

[BernardKingGOAT]

Devoe laid that foundation

Actually that was Mears too. Before he got Grunfeld and King, Tennessee was known for it's tough defense. Mears switched to up tempo only after the arrival of Grunfeld and King

 

[kptvol1452]

Foolish statement.

Barnes doesn’t owe Pearl anything.

The fact there’s people still believe Pearl was mistreated by Tennessee due to his careless actions is absolutely mind boggling.

It anything, he helped create the mess.

No Barnes did not need help from Pearl
Bruce wasn't Rockstar coach until working for ESPN couple yrs now he can do no wrong......Go Vols!!!

 

[CDB]

Says the guy that has replied to me several times in the last hour wanting to rehash and revive what most of us had agreed to disagree on

Don’t think I repeated myself though. You got destroyed. Take your L and go home. Saying it over and over again does not make it a fact.

 

[EasternVol]

Well that wasn't Barnes perception, and that's all that really matters in regards to this discussion.

SEC being a basketball league was not what he discussed with reporters from ESPN back when he passed on the this job the first go around in 1989. Quite the contrary. Same with Dickey being his problem here.
Actually, he specifically said him not coming here " didn't have anything to do with with Doug Dickey. "
His concern was that the Tennessee and SEC in general was "set out on being the best football league".

You have to keep in mind, he wasn't being offered the Job at Kentucky. Context was him being offered the job at Tennessee.
Barnes wasn't really too thrilled with the SEC in general even after he took the job here.
It wasn't until Greg Sankey took over as commissioner that he felt the SEC could be strong from the top to the bottom.

Barnes recently said in an ESPN interview,
"The running joke was that you've got football season, spring football, and then everything else falls behind it, and that basketball is in there somewhere.
That was a mentality that was created by leadership, whether you want to call it the leadership in the conference, the schools or whatever. There just wasn't an emphasis placed on basketball across the league."

You can feel free to conclude anything you'd like to in respect. My conclusion is Barnes decided to take a chance on Tennessee because he felt they were one of the SEC schools that was at least willing to place an emphasis on basketball.

Why did he feel this way?

Because they did it under Coach Bruce Pearl.
The more success Pearl had the more backing he got. It's not a far reach at all to conclude Pearl's success here at Tennessee influenced Barnes decision to come here at some level.

And again, nobody has to agree with this. I never said everyone must agree with me.
I've simply gave my opinion backed by solid fact- based evidence.
There's nothing more I can do in regards to Barnes's decision to come here. Only Barnes truly knows.
If you ( meaning anyone) disagrees at this point feel free to knock yourself out.
You'll not change my mind unless you can present a similarly convincing argument as I have.

Tennessee showing that they were 'at least willing to place an emphasis on basketball' wasn't unique to or more pronounced than usual during Pearl's term here. That goes back to Mears' and even before. TBA wasn't built by a school with no or little emphasis on hoops.

 

[MinisterofDef#92]

Without Pearl and those winning seasons we may not even end up with Barnes.
He made/showed the job here was worth taking.
He gave Barnes a nice landing spot after Texas.
Pearl built that. He also built a culture of winning that lasted despite a few seasons of bad coaching. That says a lot about what Pearl did for us.
There is no need to not give him credit for that.

I get what you are trying to say and I agree Pearl should def get credit for showing what this program could be but CRB definitely didn't have a nice landing spot nor a winning culture thanks to clown Cuonzo ("oh, btw, TN fans are extremely racist ) and arsonist Donnie.

 

[EasternVol]

I get what you are trying to say and I agree Pearl should def get credit for showing what this program could be but CRB definitely didn't have a nice landing spot nor a winning culture thanks to clown Cuonzo ("oh, btw, TN fans are extremely racist ) and arsonist Donnie.

I wouldn't trash either Martin or Tyndall considering what they walked into here. Tyndall was a placeholder who didn't burn things down, especially compared to Pearl.

 

[MinisterofDef#92]

And like I said,


Nothing anyone has said refutes this.

This is demonstrably false...no sane person would try claim this was a "winning culture" but you've done it multiple times in this thread.

2010: 19-15 (Conf: 8-8) - Pearl's last yr
2011: 19-15 (10-6) - Conzo's 1st yr
2012: 20-13 (11-7)
2013: 24-13 (11-7)
2014: 16-16 (7-11) - Donnie's 1 and done yr

 

[Stoerner Fumbles]

So Pearl gets a pass because everybody else does it?

Oh yeah, I forgot about that big name coach Tyndall.

Pearl didn’t “start” it. He stoked the fire and then pissed all over it.

You cannot silence this idiot. I have tried. The Anticriticalthinkingpumper cannot be decoupled from his keyboard.

 

[MinisterofDef#92]

I wouldn't trash either Martin or Tyndall considering what they walked into here. Tyndall was a placeholder who didn't burn things down, especially compared to Pearl.

Pearl damaged our program with violations and then his self-serving antics at the end which were frankly despicable. At best, Martin was ok and was treading water but he did great damage to this program with how he chose to exit. Tyndall was in way over his head which is why he is at Chipola College...so I guess one can't blame Tyndall for accepting a great oppy he never should have had.

 

[JMSqb11]

Pearl damaged our program with violations and then his self-serving antics at the end which were frankly despicable. At best, Martin was ok and was treading water but he did great damage to this program with how he chose to exit. Tyndall was in way over his head which is why he is at Chipola College...so I guess one can't blame Tyndall for accepting a great oppy he never should have had.

The Notion that Pearl was 100000% responsible for the after effects of his time here is a bit absurd. I didn't realize how many Mike Hamilton apologists there were in our fan base considering he was one of the worst athletic directors in the nation this century....

Do people really no remember his about face the night before we had our first round game vs Michigan that basically tanked the player's opportunity that tourney? Sheesh. I can get on board that Pearl deserved to be fired, but until the season was over, he was our coach and deserved all the support for the player's sake going into the tourney. Hamilton's comments the night before sealed the end of the season before the game even tipped off vs Michigan.

 

[savannahfan]

I always give them both credit for UT basketball being what it is today. If Barnes was to win a Natty he would owe Pearl a little bit of gratitude.
If Barnes isn't able to get it done, the next coach that comes in and gets it done is going to owe both Barnes and Pearl a ton of gratitude for building a culture of winning here at UT in respect to Basketball.

go get Bruce!! don't let money stand in the way, that is if he would come.

 

[apevol]

Does Bruce Pearl owe Jerry Green some gratitude?

actually yeah, a bit.

Green showed you could consistently bring great talent to Knoxville without doing whacky **** like hiring mr basketball in Kentucky's dad.

 

[MinisterofDef#92]

The Notion that Pearl was 100000% responsible for the after effects of his time here is a bit absurd. I didn't realize how many Mike Hamilton apologists there were in our fan base considering he was one of the worst athletic directors in the nation this century....

Do people really no remember his about face the night before we had our first round game vs Michigan that basically tanked the player's opportunity that tourney? Sheesh. I can get on board that Pearl deserved to be fired, but until the season was over, he was our coach and deserved all the support for the player's sake going into the tourney. Hamilton's comments the night before sealed the end of the season before the game even tipped off vs Michigan.

Lol at 100000%

I never said Pearl was responsible for everything that happened after he left. And, pls show me where anybody is apologizing for Hamilton.

Pearl is solely culpable for getting himself fired which set everything in motion (direct actions have consequences and includes those which are unintended) and, therefore, he definitely shares in any/all blame for what happens thereafter. Pointing to the poor decisions of others along the way doesn't change that fact.

 

[CDB]

You cannot silence this idiot. I have tried. The Anticriticalthinkingpumper cannot be decoupled from his keyboard.

Yeah, I know. I’ve been chastising myself for beating my head against a brick wall.

I don’t normally do this, but I get tired of all the people that think Pearl is so great and don’t see him for what he really is, especially when they criticize Barnes every time a player misses a layup by saying how much better Pearl is. They are both great coaches, but as far as the quality of the man and the program they run, they are not even close.

 

[JMSqb11]

Lol at 100000%

I never said Pearl was responsible for everything that happened after he left. And, pls show me where anybody is apologizing for Hamilton.

Pearl is solely culpable for getting himself fired which set everything in motion (direct actions have consequences and includes those which are unintended) and, therefore, he definitely shares in any/all blame for what happens thereafter. Pointing to the poor decisions of others along the way doesn't change that fact.

“I never said Pearl was responsible” to not even 2 sentences later “Pearl shares any and all blame for the whatever happened thereafter”

lol.

 

[overseasorange2]

You could give him some credit if you wanted to I guess. You going to have a much tougher argument, tho.
Coach Cal and Pope could give credit to Rupp if they wanted to.
Even so, you guys are acting like it wasn't Pearl that put Tennessee men's basketball back on the map (or even on the map in the modern era).
It's silly.